Author Topic: Advice before I split the cases  (Read 2802 times)

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Offline tlbranth

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Advice before I split the cases
« on: January 19, 2020, 10:10:21 am »
1970 CB750 K0: The oil seal behind the points is leaking and since it's flanged, the cases have to be split to replace it. I've done the top end of this engine before but not the lower. What exactly am I in for? I have an engine stand and I'll build a frame to hold the engine. I assume I remove all the side cases, roll it upside down and unbolt the halves. Will anything come flying out when I do this? Do I remove the lower half completely? Seems like I'd need to in order to properly clean the mating surfaces. Hondabond to reattach? While I'm at it I'll replace all the rest of the seals - I bought them already. Any advice from you if you've done this already would be most appreciated.
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Offline bryanj

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Re: Advice before I split the cases
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2020, 10:15:22 am »
Clutch has to come off, there is a casting crosses both halves that has to come off and to get enought lift on the crank you will probably have to take the cam out
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Offline tlbranth

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Re: Advice before I split the cases
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2020, 10:18:18 am »
The crankshaft can't stay with the top so the cam can stay put?
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Offline bryanj

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Re: Advice before I split the cases
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2020, 10:20:06 am »
You wont be able to lift the crank out of the cases enough to get the seal seated
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline 754

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Re: Advice before I split the cases
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2020, 10:21:30 am »
The casting is on shifter side, the clutch I think can stay in. As can alternator.  With cam tensioner loosened crank should lift enough.  One end only may be all you need.
 Not sure if you want to check your bearing shells.
 Have these cases been split before ?
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Offline 754

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Re: Advice before I split the cases
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2020, 10:22:20 am »
It only has to be lifted about 4 millimetres. 
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline bryanj

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Re: Advice before I split the cases
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2020, 12:10:31 pm »
If there was 4mm play on a cam chain i was working on i would want to change it
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Advice before I split the cases
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2020, 02:41:58 pm »
The 750 bottom case can be removed with the whole engine upside down, no troubles with that approach. You will find that the crank will be a little tough to lift far enough to R&R that seal: the best thing to do is to remove the cam chain's tensioner from the back of the cylinders to give it the max slack the cam chain has at this point.

I've done it before, it goes about like this (and helps if you have another hand to help at that moment): pull off the side covers (tranny, clutch, sprocket, alternator) after draining the oil, and remove the 7 (some have 8) 6mm bolts from the top side of the case, and the one nearest the countershaft (above it), this will be either 6mm or 8mm, depending on engine vintage). and the 3 8mm bolts across the back. Don't forget the 6mm bolt back by the kickshaft (like I often do). Then turn the engine on its head. Add 2 or even 3 pieces of 2x4 under the rear of the cases to make it a little more level to work with, then pull the 8 short 6mm bolts off across the front and the 4 other ones holding the cases snug across the middle. Last, remove the 10 long 8mm bolts along the crank's bearings (the 2 in the middle are longest) and plan on shining them up on a wire wheel, as they will likely be crusty.

With a long (long) screwdriver or short prybar, gently pop the cases by levering back by the countersprocket, and the boss on the cases back there. It will either gently pop (if still virgin sealant from Honda) or will just separate. If there is even one little bolt left, it will not separate and can break the cases, so be sure you have all those little 6mm bolts out.

Then the tricky part that needs a friend to help (or swear words, ether one works...): you will have to lift the crank straight up from its bearing seats in the upper case. It WILL NOT come out at any angle, it is well-machined into its home slots. Since your cam chain is still connected, you will only get it up loose about 1/4" or so at the most, which will just barely be enough to pry out the points seal. While still holding the crank up (I have used small pieces of 1/4" wood dowels for this part when working alone and using swear words to assist) you then slide the new seal into place and press the flanged back portion into place, then let the crank drop back in the bearings. The hard part is done.

Now is the messy part: you need lacquer thinner or acetone (or the like) to remove the old case sealant on all the mating surfaces. Then you put Hondabond 4 on all those same sites: be careful near the crank's outer 2 bearings so you don't end up filling them or their grooves with the Hondabond. I apply there with a cotton swab for better accuracy...then you have less than 10 minutes to set the cases back together (maybe more if you live in a humid place, here it is a desert) and make sure they seat. DON'T count on using bolts to "pull it closed", it will (and MUST) seat together without bolts. Then start the closing with the 10 crank bolts, fully torqued, and work from the inner 6mm bolts outward. I do the ones across the front last, then turn it over. Do the long 6mm top bolts from the center outward, too, and the last ones are across the back of the engine.

Then all you have to do is reinstall the engine! :)
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Offline tlbranth

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Re: Advice before I split the cases
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2020, 04:43:05 pm »
Wow. Looks like I'm in for it. Thanks everyone for your input. Hondaman...can the engine be supported inverted on an engine stand?
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Offline tlbranth

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Re: Advice before I split the cases
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2020, 04:46:42 pm »

 Not sure if you want to check your bearing shells.
 Have these cases been split before ?

Nope. Cases have never been split. Not messing with bearing shells.
Don't own a Vanagon
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1970 CB750 K0
1975 GL1000
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2002 VT750-CDA ACE - Momma's bike
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Advice before I split the cases
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2020, 06:13:20 pm »
Wow. Looks like I'm in for it. Thanks everyone for your input. Hondaman...can the engine be supported inverted on an engine stand?

Not really. There is no upper half to hold onto when the lower case is removed. I always end up doing them on the floor...well, lately on my genuine Harbor Freight hydraulic 'cart' that I also use to get them into/out of the SUVs that often bring them here. It pumps up or down, makes a nice working table, except it goes from UP to DOWN all by itself in about 72 hours (slow leak in the hydraulic jack).

An additional thought: turn the crankshaft to a position where no pistons are at TDC. Otherwise it might be near impossible to pull the crank up and release that seal, as the pistons need to move a little bit down in the bore when you move it.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 06:45:12 pm by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Advice before I split the cases
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2020, 06:47:46 pm »
BTW: how did you determine the seal is bad? I had a K0 I rebuilt with the aftermarket points shaft in it (from those guys in CA who make them) and the O-ring on their shaft is the wrong size. It was a custom size from Honda to start with, and the new one leaked a 1" puddle after every ride. I got a used shaft from another crank, with the Honda O-ring, and that fixed it.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline slikwilli420

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Re: Advice before I split the cases
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2020, 07:34:57 pm »
I built this to hold the engine upside down. It only works when the cylinders are removed but you could make it work for a complete top end.
All you gotta do is do what you gotta do.

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Offline 754

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Re: Advice before I split the cases
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2020, 08:17:25 pm »
I forgot you have to pull straight up, but should be easy with a helper..
 Put a rag under  the valve cover when you fill it over.
 Motor will sit ok but a few pieces of 2x4 will get it near level.
 You will be able to examine your main shells with case half off... and should.l
 I blew a countershaft and had to swap it out.

 Once motor is out of frame,  what you need to do to cases buttoned up, can be easily done in one evening.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Kevin D

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Re: Advice before I split the cases
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2020, 08:22:36 pm »
Be prepared with your impact driver to do battle with these screws under the shift cover.
Maybe you don't have to take that index plate off the shift drum but the bearing holder needs to come off.
Dont lose the little rubber plug (circled) that guides the oil to the clutch and trans.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 08:26:12 pm by Kevin D »
71 CB750 K1
104,000 miles
Original Owner
———past———
70 SL100/125/150
70 Candy BlueGreen CB 750 K0
————————————————-
Former Honda parts kid/counter kid/do all
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Offline PeWe

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Re: Advice before I split the cases
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2020, 01:23:01 am »
I drilled the heads off on all those bearing holder screws. Really easy. The shifter drum screw no need to ever touch it.

I did not dare to hammer that hard on my impact driver bought for the CB750 engine covers.

I used countersunk allen heads when assemble.

Good idea to inspect the crank bearings when opened and replace if needed.

If engine has done 65.000km or more, all chains with retainers is my guess. Oil pump o-rings another thing.

To be sure about primary chains, measure the slack according to manual.
My K6 chains were  stretched with additional rattle at 65.000 km.

Worst thing is to pull out and install engine.
Not to take it appart, restore and assemble which is very fun.
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Offline tlbranth

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Re: Advice before I split the cases
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2020, 10:31:27 am »
BTW: how did you determine the seal is bad? I had a K0 I rebuilt with the aftermarket points shaft in it (from those guys in CA who make them) and the O-ring on their shaft is the wrong size. It was a custom size from Honda to start with, and the new one leaked a 1" puddle after every ride. I got a used shaft from another crank, with the Honda O-ring, and that fixed it.
I'm getting a fair amount of oil in the points case. Could it be an o-ring? I'm the original owner and the point shaft hasn't been messed with.
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Offline tlbranth

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Re: Advice before I split the cases
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2020, 10:44:14 am »
I drilled the heads off on all those bearing holder screws. Really easy. The shifter drum screw no need to ever touch it.

I did not dare to hammer that hard on my impact driver bought for the CB750 engine covers.

I used countersunk allen heads when assemble.

Good idea to inspect the crank bearings when opened and replace if needed.

If engine has done 65.000km or more, all chains with retainers is my guess. Oil pump o-rings another thing.

To be sure about primary chains, measure the slack according to manual.
My K6 chains were  stretched with additional rattle at 65.000 km.

Worst thing is to pull out and install engine.
Not to take it appart, restore and assemble which is very fun.

I did rebuild the oil pump a couple of years ago.

In order to mess with the mains, I'd have to pull the camshaft wouldn't I?

Ditto for the primary chain?
Don't own a Vanagon
Don't work at Boeing
Life is good

1970 CB750 K0
1975 GL1000
1999 GL1500
2002 VT750-CDA ACE - Momma's bike
Terry

Offline tlbranth

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Re: Advice before I split the cases
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2020, 11:03:19 am »
So anyone: with the engine inverted, side covers off, all bolts between the top and bottom removed, Can the lower half be removed completely from the top half? Will all the transmission bits stay put? Will any springs, balls, or anything come flying out?
If the bottom half can be completely removed, the whole thing might be a lot simpler than I originally envisioned.
Don't own a Vanagon
Don't work at Boeing
Life is good

1970 CB750 K0
1975 GL1000
1999 GL1500
2002 VT750-CDA ACE - Momma's bike
Terry

Offline Kevin D

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Re: Advice before I split the cases
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2020, 01:23:29 pm »
Quote
Can the lower half be removed completely from the top half?
Yes

Quote
Will all the transmission bits stay put?
Yes, 1/2 trans in upper case, 1/2 trans + shift drum and forks in lower case

Quote
Will any springs, balls, or anything come flying out?
No

EDIT
I should add, I have done this exactly twice, both times successfully.
You can see the shaft bearings sit at the case split and you would expect gravity to keep them in the upper case.
The first time, '73/35000 mi, was to replace a leaky point seal. The second time was '08/67000mi, where it also got a new points seal, amongst other things.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 04:38:00 pm by Kevin D »
71 CB750 K1
104,000 miles
Original Owner
———past———
70 SL100/125/150
70 Candy BlueGreen CB 750 K0
————————————————-
Former Honda parts kid/counter kid/do all
—————————————————————-
Whether you think you can or think you can’t, you’re right
Genius is 99% perspiration, 1% inspiration

Offline ekpent

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Re: Advice before I split the cases
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2020, 03:33:46 pm »
BTW: how did you determine the seal is bad? I had a K0 I rebuilt with the aftermarket points shaft in it (from those guys in CA who make them) and the O-ring on their shaft is the wrong size. It was a custom size from Honda to start with, and the new one leaked a 1" puddle after every ride. I got a used shaft from another crank, with the Honda O-ring, and that fixed it.
I'm getting a fair amount of oil in the points case. Could it be an o-ring? I'm the original owner and the point shaft hasn't been messed with.
Be nice if it was as easy as changing/fixing that.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 06:43:32 am by ekpent »

Offline tlbranth

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Re: Advice before I split the cases
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2020, 05:06:48 pm »
Thanks Kevin. The photos really help a lot.
Don't own a Vanagon
Don't work at Boeing
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1970 CB750 K0
1975 GL1000
1999 GL1500
2002 VT750-CDA ACE - Momma's bike
Terry

Offline my name is nobody

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Re: Advice before I split the cases
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2020, 07:44:41 am »
The hard part is during reassembly. the center shift fork must be centered and engage.
over its corresponding gear at the same time the cases are mated. Easier with a helper for that step,
as you need to verify the fork doesn't move, which is easily possible. This can become tedious (but still possible)
for 1 person. A lot less cumbersome with two people.
Just an FYI.

Offline tlbranth

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Re: Advice before I split the cases
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2020, 09:42:15 am »
Thanks N. Good tip. Everything helps.
Don't own a Vanagon
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1970 CB750 K0
1975 GL1000
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2002 VT750-CDA ACE - Momma's bike
Terry

Offline tlbranth

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Re: Advice before I split the cases
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2020, 05:59:48 pm »
Got the cases split. I couldn't find a decent place to pry the case halves apart 'til I hit upon this: I cut a 2x4 to the appropriate length, set it on the stand I made and prised up on the rear motor mount. Popped nicely. I'm photographing the steps along the way. Do you think it'd be worth posting a step-by-step tutorial (assuming I don't bugger something beyond redemption)?
My primary tensioner rubber is a bit banged up so I ordered a new one from Yamiya. 110 bucks! Looked at the primary chains, contemplated measuring, puling the crank, lifting the gear cluster and paying 200 bucks for new, stuck my fingers in my ears and yelled yayayayayaya 'til the feeling was gone. Mains look like new. Barely a shiny spot on them. Not going there.
Soda blasting is a messy business. The stuff gets everywhere....but it does a good job. It's hard to get it all off prior to painting. You THINK it all washed off... but you was rong! I have a few clumps of nicely painted blasting soda which will need later attention. I cobbled a small blasting booth and reclaimed the soda several times for subsequent blasts.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2020, 06:09:42 pm by tlbranth »
Don't own a Vanagon
Don't work at Boeing
Life is good

1970 CB750 K0
1975 GL1000
1999 GL1500
2002 VT750-CDA ACE - Momma's bike
Terry