Author Topic: Lithium Battery Irregular Discharge  (Read 3861 times)

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Offline minimo

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Lithium Battery Irregular Discharge
« on: February 01, 2020, 10:07:32 PM »
1975 CB400F
SHORAI LFX 14L2-BA12 (cca: 210, polarity: [-+]
Rick’s Reg/Rec 14-100 (“Lithium Ion Battery Compatible Reg/Rec)
Stator is stock
Running all LED lights, even the headlight

There have been dumb occasions when my Shorai battery has fallen below 12V - trying to get the bike started from a stall (part of a separate idle issue I seem to be having recently) and the voltage set point on Rick’s reg/rec seems to then maintain at that lower reading and not at 14V +/- 0.2 like it should. The volt reading does increase with higher RPM but I still don’t think it’s correct because it maintains a charge at a lower voltage.

Using Shorai’s charger (SHO-BMS01) and connecting in Store Mode is the only way I can get the battery back up to about 13.3V (resting voltage).

Looking into this, I stumbled upon some parasitic draw coming from the power connection to my Koso T&T speedo/tach; some 11V and up of drain utilizing the instructions provided by Shorai below:
Quote
KEY-OFF DRAW, or PARASITIC LOAD: This is almost always the culprit behind batteries discharging while not in use. While the Shorai LFX battery has a very slow discharge rate (it will hold at or above 13.1V for approximately 1 year without a load), if installed in a vehicle the electrical system draw can discharge the battery over time.   Standard draw is about 1-3 mAh on modern motorcycles, with some vehicles having as high as 20-30mA!  Damage due to overdischarge is not a manufacturing defect and is not covered under warranty. 

How much does YOUR bike having running in the background?
Switch your Digital Multimeter to DC mA, 20m/mA is usually sufficient unless you have a considerable key-off draw—if so switch it to 200m/mA.
Disconnect the negative terminal from the battery to your motorcycle.  Do not touch the positive terminal connection.  Keep it as is, covered and protected.
Place the Negative (black) Multimeter probe on the negative post of the battery and the Positive (red) probe on the ground wire (and together with any others that were connected to it; accessories like a Power Commander or alarm, lights).  You may hold the ground/negative wires together with your hand when checking, it will not shock you.
The digital readout should read no more than 4 to 5 mA.  If the reading is higher than 4-5 mA, the vehicle will need more frequent charging.  Most motorcycles are less than 1 mA.
Accessories such as GPS, computers, and grip warmers which are left on, and even stock anti-theft deterrents will discharge your battery extremely fast.  Please ascertain all non-anti-theft, or non-essential device accessories can be turned off and note that you will need to charge your battery more often while using even the factory anti-theft device.

Now I’m sort of at a loss because both the battery and reg/rec are fairly new and I’ve hit quite a low voltage on the lithium battery which is detrimental. I currently have the battery on Store Mode and it appears to be at a nice 13.3V Should I take this up with Rick’s or with Shorai? Any ideas here? Stator? Ignition switch?

Before this recent battery and reg/rec replacement I had a Shorai LFX 14A2-BA12 (this had a +/- polarity, reverse of what the 14L2 has) and a Rick’s OEM style Honda reg/rec 10-100 and despite it reaching close to 15V while riding, the battery kept up for at least a year before it gave up.

Is the way that I have the Koso connected to my solenoid some issue? I tried connecting it to ignition 12V and this won’t do since turning the bike off shuts the Koso off completely, clearing its memory (clock and trips) each time.





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Offline minimo

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Re: Lithium Battery Irregular Discharge
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2020, 10:17:07 PM »
Koso says here that the red power pole should connect to battery +

In theory, this is the same as I have it connected to one of the posts on my solenoid, correct?


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Online seanbarney41

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Re: Lithium Battery Irregular Discharge
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2020, 12:01:06 AM »
Don't use all of that crap...put all the old stuff back, stock electrics works fine.
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline minimo

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Re: Lithium Battery Irregular Discharge
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2020, 02:43:51 AM »
Best solution yet, Sean B!


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Offline strynboen

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Re: Lithium Battery Irregular Discharge
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2020, 04:04:11 AM »
i have put a elektronic spedo on my son"s china dax..on konstant plus..it only for memory..and think it pulls  only in mili amps..so think not that is the main problem..ve have a small 2a lead battery to power the vhole spedo...Works just fine..lead Sealed batterys is just robust and cost almost nothing
i kan not speak english/but trying!!
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=60973.0
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=144758.0
i hate all this v-w.... vords

Offline gtmdriver

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Re: Lithium Battery Irregular Discharge
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2020, 04:06:10 AM »
Lithium batteries require a very specific charging scheme and I'm not sure that our bikes, even with a replacement rec/reg, are up to the job.

I may be a bit of a Luddite but I would retro-fit a standard lead/acid or possibly an AGM type to the bike.

Offline bryanj

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Re: Lithium Battery Irregular Discharge
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2020, 04:35:40 AM »
Modern stuff aint better on 40 yr old vehicles
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline minimo

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Re: Lithium Battery Irregular Discharge
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2020, 07:38:01 AM »
Also to mention, while these are modern components (lithium batt, reg/rec, LED light, etc) I am still using the stock OEM wiring. Thinking perhaps it is about time I rewire with some fresh leads


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Offline bryanj

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Re: Lithium Battery Irregular Discharge
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2020, 07:49:51 AM »
Whatever you change wont alter the way the alternator works, its way too crude for the modern stuff!

The only way you will cure it is graft a car alternator on there somehow and good luck with that.
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline scottly

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Re: Lithium Battery Irregular Discharge
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2020, 05:20:28 PM »

Looking into this, I stumbled upon some parasitic draw coming from the power connection to my Koso T&T speedo/tach; some 11V and up of drain utilizing the instructions provided by Shorai below:

Do you mean you have a parasitic draw of 11 milliamps?
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline minimo

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Re: Lithium Battery Irregular Discharge
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2020, 10:05:54 PM »
Bah. Had it in the wrong setting, I think.

DCA 2.17mA @ 20m setting.
That would be minimal draw, I guess.


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Offline minimo

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Re: Lithium Battery Irregular Discharge
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2020, 10:51:38 PM »
Tested Shorai cell voltage after Storage and Charge modes:

Cell 1 - 3.35V
Cell 2 - 3.35V
Cell 3 - 3.35V
Cell 4 - 3.36V

Overall = 13.41V

Will give this another go.


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Offline minimo

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Re: Lithium Battery Irregular Discharge
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2020, 01:43:19 PM »
Given those details, fortunately I have a spare stator that from appearances was in better condition than the one I had installed. So far this replacement is maintaining closer to 14.2V
Will get more rides in to see how it goes


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Offline minimo

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Re: Lithium Battery Irregular Discharge
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2020, 08:45:05 PM »
Here are the results while riding with the replacement stator:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nRJstaBd023ctPIXL2fN5m5EoGZWzFOt/view?usp=drivesdk
The volt meter reads 13.3V at idle and climbs up to a limit of 14.4V and then drops to about 12.8V
I’d like to go on a longer ride to get the bike warmed up a bit but so far, looking pretty normal, wouldn’t you all say?



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Offline scottly

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Re: Lithium Battery Irregular Discharge
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2020, 09:00:24 PM »

The volt meter reads 13.3V at idle and climbs up to a limit of 14.4V and then drops to about 12.8V


/quote]
I can't view your video; the voltage should NOT drop to 12.8V with the motor running.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline minimo

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Re: Lithium Battery Irregular Discharge
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2020, 09:29:03 PM »
I should add that the V meter mounted on my headlight bucket is not representative of ACTUAL battery voltage; it is 0.9V under what the battery actually reads.

So, 12.8V is actually 13.7V

A 14.4V reading on my volt meter may be concerning but Shorai’s recommended ceiling is 15.2V which anything higher than that, per Shorai was ok but “it could cause the battery lifespan to be a bit short due to increased internal resistance from the prolonged heat exposure.”
 
Shorai added, “Worst case scenario would be if you started from very low voltage, somehow bumpstarted it and then it was hit with pretty high voltage right off the bat. It can cause one or two of the cells to overcharge. That could cause outgassing (steaming battery).”

Meanwhile, the replacement stator, reg/rec and charge are all keeping up so far.


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Offline minimo

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Re: Lithium Battery Irregular Discharge
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2020, 01:55:19 PM »
Thanks for chiming in, calj.

I know that you have a similar setup: Shorai LFX with a Rick’s reg/rec... But, of course you have the good sense to rewire your entire bike.

It’s a daunting task but I will begin to map out some new wires for this bike. I’m thinking about going to vintageconnections.com mainly because I want to try and maintain the same wire color scheme.


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Offline scottly

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Re: Lithium Battery Irregular Discharge
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2020, 06:29:59 PM »
Out-gassing means letting the magic smoke out with lithium batteries. :o ;)
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline minimo

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Re: Lithium Battery Irregular Discharge
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2020, 12:27:06 AM »
I do have the Rick’s 14-100 “lithium-ion”-friendly r/r installed.

I will investigate on why it’s such a wide comparison between what I’m reading at the volt meter in the front compared to what the battery is reading in the back. Chances are, the reg/rec is reading a more accurate voltage since its connection is physically closer and running thru a lot less wires than what the volt meter in the front is reading off of? Does it work like that? I’ll even remove my volt meter and connect it straight to the battery to see if it reads what it should while I have a multimeter also connected to compare.

When I get some time this weekend I’ll try to pare The wires down one component at a time, from front to back to see if I can decrease that difference. Thanks!




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Offline bryanj

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Re: Lithium Battery Irregular Discharge
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2020, 12:45:26 AM »
The wire to the reg is not nearer its farther away as power goes from battery to switch then to headlamp and then back to reg so thats lots of connections and wire
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline scottly

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Re: Lithium Battery Irregular Discharge
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2020, 09:34:04 PM »
Connect the positive lead from a voltmeter to the positive battery terminal, and the negative meter lead to the black regulator wire. Turn the ignition switch on, and note the voltage reading; this is the voltage drop through the harness to the reg. A stock harness in good condition will read about .5V.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline minimo

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Re: Lithium Battery Irregular Discharge
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2020, 06:31:42 PM »
And by “volt meter,” I meant an LED voltage gauge (with USB connection) I had mounted to my headlight bucket...

It was reading about 1V less than what the battery was reading having connected it to one of the Black wires coming off of ignition. Through all of these old wires and connectors, resistance like this can be, err, futile?

I spent some time on this. My dim wit could barely grasp what and how this all really works, but no matter which Black wire or connector I inspected, I would still read about 1 V under what the battery was reading. Yes, I took readings from the regulator connector, yet that was reading closer to actual battery voltage. Going back and forth, metering (with multimeter) between the volt gauge and the battery, it was still reading 1 V less. I threw in the towel, mostly because I wanted to ride out on a Sunday.
So, in some related bizness, my Koso gauge runs its power off of one of the posts on my solenoid, which is as close to a battery connection as it goes. However, the Koso seems to have some kind of auto power-down function 10 seconds after switching the key ignition off. So this gave me the idea of complicating things a bit more by connecting a simple toggle switch between the V gauge and solenoid, turning the feature on only when I feel like it. So, that’s what I did and I’m gonna go with it.



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