Author Topic: Ignition coils: 3Ohm vs 5Ohm: What's the difference?  (Read 4867 times)

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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Ignition coils: 3Ohm vs 5Ohm: What's the difference?
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2020, 08:13:00 AM »
Delta.  Can you explain burn time.  I see the initial voltage spike.  Then a little ringing.  Then the 2.? Milliseconds where the voltage remains at 26 volts.  Why does the voltage do this, why is that burn time.
What you see in the graph, is what is happening in the coil's primary. But it represents also what's happening simultaneously in the secundary circuit/between the sparkplugs electrodes. In principle the voltages shown in the primary circuit are multiplied by the winding ratio. IIRC the CB750 coil's primary circuit has 380 and the secundary 15000 windings. That makes a ratio of say 1:40. As a rule of thumb the voltages shown in the primary can then be multiplied by 40 if it happened to be your coil. So this gives you some idea of the voltages at the sparkplug. But... let's not concentrate on voltages. What is delivered between the sparkplugs electrodes is energy or better said: heat which is normally expressed in (milli)Joules. The voltage is just a way of looking at the phenomenon and quite frankly, I don't find it very meaningful but we can use it. Anyway, the initial high peak is the voltage needed to ionize the air/fuel mix between the electrodes, to become conductive. As soon as the spark starts, voltage drops dramatically to a level where we nonetheless still have a period where arcing takes place between the electrodes. That is the socalled burn time. If, for whatever reason, the initial peak was not sufficient to start the flamefront travelling through the combustion chamber, the burn time helps completing this. Think of a very energetic zig zag saw like activity in arcing going on. Overthink this in slow motion and you will get the picture.
A few things to bear in mind. The sparkplug has only two duties: A. To ignite just a tiny bit of mixture around its electrodes and B to stay clean, so it can continue to do A. Let's look at A. As soon as the plug has succesfully performed duty A, the created flamefront in principle will take care of the rest of the combustion. That's the idea. Again, overthink the action in slowmo and you will understand. To resume, you need a relative high peak to establish a spark and then a period of time the electrodes are still arcing to deliver all in all sufficient heat. The voltage is dependent on 1. the electrode gap's wideness and 2. the conditions in the combustion chamber. The latter varies very much with load/rpm but also with other conditions like (partly) fouled sparkplugs and the presence (or not) of carbon deposits in the combustion chamber. Please do not forget the combustion engine is a very primitive machine and in evolution only the next step after the steam engine. On a steamlocomotive you had the driver (engineer) and the stoker. From time to time the stoker would open a lid to add coal to a fire already in process. New with the arrival of the combustion engine was that we now put in the fuel first and then let the sparkplug strike a match. I agree, it is ridiculously outdated and, given that only some 20% of the energy is transformed into motion and the rest is lost in heat, such a machine should have been phased out long time ago. Yes, we all are riding old stinking furnaces.
Let's focus a bit on the rise time. The shorter that time, the less the ignition will suffer from parasitic drain. Parasitic drain is caused by old, (partly) fouled or even wet sparkplugs and/or detoriated plugcaps and/or old high tension cables. CDI systems clearly have the advantage here. Rise time with a CDI is extremely short, but the concept also has disadvantages: no burn time to mention one ;D.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 05:52:32 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline Korven

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Re: Ignition coils: 3Ohm vs 5Ohm: What's the difference?
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2020, 08:59:19 AM »
Delta.  Can you explain burn time.  I see the initial voltage spike.  Then a little ringing.  Then the 2.? Milliseconds where the voltage remains at 26 volts.  Why does the voltage do this, why is that burn time.
What you see in the graph, is what is happening in the coil's primary. But it represents also what's happening simultaneously in the secundary circuit/between the sparkplugs electrodes. In principle the voltages shown in the primary circuit are multiplied by the winding ratio. IIRC the CB750 coil's primary circuit has 380 and the secundary 15000 windings. That makes a ratio of say 1:40. As a rule of thumb the voltages shown in the primary can then be multiplied by 40 if it happened to be your coil and you will have an idea of the voltages at the sparkplug. But... let's not concentrate on voltages. What is delivered between the sparkplugs electrodes is energy or better said: heat which is normally expressed in (milli)Joules. The voltage is just a way of looking at the phenomenon and quite frankly, I don't find it very meaningful but we can use it. Anyway, the initial high peak is the voltage needed to ionize the air/fuel mix between the electrodes, to become conductive. As soon as the spark starts, voltage drops dramatically to a level where we nonetheless still have a period where arcing takes place between the electrodes. That is the socalled burn time. If, for whatever reason, the initial peak was not sufficient to start the flamefront travelling through the combustion chamber, the burn time helps completing this. Think of a very energetic zig zag saw like activity in arcing going on. Think slow motion.
A few things to bear in mind. The sparkplug has only two duties: A. To ignite just a tiny bit of mixture around its electrodes and B to stay clean, so it can continue to do A. Let's look at A. As soon as the plug has succesfully performed duty A, the created flamefront in principle will take care of the rest of the combustion. That's the idea. Again, think slowmo and you will understand. To resume, you need a relative high peak to establish a spark and then a period of time the electrodes are still arcing to deliver all in all sufficient heat. The voltage is dependent on 1. the electrode gap's wideness and 2. the conditions in the combustion chamber. The latter varies very much with load/rpm but also with other conditions like partly dirty sparkplugs and the presence (or not) of carbon deposits in the combustion chamber. Please do not forget the combustion engine is a very primitive machine and in evolution only the next step after the steam engine. On a steamtrain you had the driver (engineer) and the stoker. From time to time the stoker would open a lid to add coal to a fire already in process. New with the arrival of the combustion engine was that we now put in the fuel first and then let the sparkplug strike a match. I agree, it is ridiculously outdated and, given that only some 20% of the energy is transformed into motion and the rest is lost in heat, it should have been phased out long time ago. Yes, we all are riding old stinking furnaces.
Let's focus a bit on the rise time. The shorter that time, the less the ignition will suffer from parasitic drain. Parasitic drain is caused by old and/or wet sparkplugs and/or detoriated plugcaps and/or old high tension cables. CDI systems clearly have the advantage here. Rise time with a CDI is extremely short, but the concept also has disadvantages: no burn time to mention one ;D.


So the initial voltagespike opens up for voltages normally to low to overcome the air-resistance in the spark gap? I checked with a calculator and a 0.3"/0.70mm seems to be around 2000 volts (not sure if this applies tp wet/dry conditions but one could assume it would be lower in a gasolinemist)

Is all energy above the level of whats sufficient to ignite the fuel basically a waste of energy?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2020, 09:01:39 AM by Korven »

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Ignition coils: 3Ohm vs 5Ohm: What's the difference?
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2020, 03:12:36 PM »
When we ohm out a coil, we are measuring straight line DC resistance. During operation, coil current is constantly starting and stopping many times a second. This brings inductive reactance into play. The higher the frequency (RPM), the greater the reactance. A 3 ohm coil could actual draw less current then a 5 ohm coil, depending on the inductance of the coils. Inductance is like inertia. There is more resistance to getting electricity moving than to keep it moving.

At the peak RPM of these engines (166.7 Hz) the lower reactance of these coils will not alter their impedance significantly. The effect you mention begins well up into the kHz range, like 30,000+...  ;)
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Offline Bailgang

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Re: Ignition coils: 3Ohm vs 5Ohm: What's the difference?
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2020, 03:16:27 PM »
ill be in trouble with my daisy chained 0.4 ohm coils then?

Are they really 0.4 ohms? They won't even run with points, if they are. The points won't last but a few minutes, tops, if it runs at all. Normally the less-than-2.5 ohm coils are made for CDI or ECM-driven systems, where the spark is created 'backward' from ours, so to speak: the power is sent thru the coil at the moment of spark and they generate HV pulse then, discharging quietly afterward. The Kettering design on our bikes charges the coil up for a 'dwell' period, then stops suddenly to let the coil's magnetic field collapse and make the spark.

Yes they are however they're mini coils made by boyer bransden specifically for their electronic ign sys, I know because I've got the boyer bransden ign on my 77 F2. I doubt the coils would work on a points ign but I've never tried it either. And as Dave pointed out the coils are wired in series with each other, yeah that had me scratching my head too when i first wired it up but that's the way boyer bransden instructed and it works with no charging issues. I'm not promoting the boyer ign, just explaining it a bit.
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Offline rotortiller

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Re: Ignition coils: 3Ohm vs 5Ohm: What's the difference?
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2020, 05:36:08 PM »
Quote
coils are wired in series with each other, yeah that had me scratching my head too when i first wired it up

Must be 6 volt coils and is why they fire at the same time.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 05:39:22 PM by rotortiller »

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Ignition coils: 3Ohm vs 5Ohm: What's the difference?
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2020, 06:04:10 PM »
ill be in trouble with my daisy chained 0.4 ohm coils then?

Are they really 0.4 ohms? They won't even run with points, if they are. The points won't last but a few minutes, tops, if it runs at all. Normally the less-than-2.5 ohm coils are made for CDI or ECM-driven systems, where the spark is created 'backward' from ours, so to speak: the power is sent thru the coil at the moment of spark and they generate HV pulse then, discharging quietly afterward. The Kettering design on our bikes charges the coil up for a 'dwell' period, then stops suddenly to let the coil's magnetic field collapse and make the spark.

Yes they are however they're mini coils made by boyer bransden specifically for their electronic ign sys, I know because I've got the boyer bransden ign on my 77 F2. I doubt the coils would work on a points ign but I've never tried it either. And as Dave pointed out the coils are wired in series with each other, yeah that had me scratching my head too when i first wired it up but that's the way boyer bransden instructed and it works with no charging issues. I'm not promoting the boyer ign, just explaining it a bit.

I haven't seen Boyers in quite a while, but the last one I remember was a CDI unit, like is found on the later CB650 SOHC4 and the DOHC Fours. They are a pulse-discharge type, so the coils have very low impedance. Many modern cars (circa post-1990ish) are like this, too.
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Offline rotortiller

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Re: Ignition coils: 3Ohm vs 5Ohm: What's the difference?
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2020, 07:07:02 PM »
Quote
I haven't seen Boyers in quite a while, but the last one I remember was a CDI unit, like is found on the later CB650 SOHC4 and the DOHC Fours.

I thought the CB650 and DOHC 750s etc were transistorized and not CDI and they see 12 volts at the coils from the kill switch rather than say 300 volts from the CDI box. If I am mistaken I stand corrected.

Offline dave500

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Re: Ignition coils: 3Ohm vs 5Ohm: What's the difference?
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2020, 10:42:02 PM »
the boyer which uses the stock honda coils also fires all four at once,those mini coils are also used on modern triumphs,boyer dont make them they are gill brand coils and another make which slips my mind right now.

Offline Bailgang

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Re: Ignition coils: 3Ohm vs 5Ohm: What's the difference?
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2020, 03:10:11 PM »
Quote
coils are wired in series with each other, yeah that had me scratching my head too when i first wired it up

Must be 6 volt coils and is why they fire at the same time.

Well here's what confounds me. although the coils are clearly wired in series which you would think would mean it has a double wasted spark now, but it if it does it doesn't show it with a timing light. What I mean is that if all cyls are firing at the same time due to the coils wired in series then you would think that regardless of what plug wire I had my timing light on I should see both the 1-4 timing mark in one flash of the strobe and I should see the 2-3 timing mark as well in another flash of the strobe wouldn't you think? Nope, if my timing light is on say the #1 or #4 plug wire then the only timing mark my strobe will see is the 1-4 mark. I wont see the 2-3 mark unless I have the timing light on the #2 or #3 plug wire and again in that case my strobe will only see the 2-3 timing mark which makes it seem as though the coils are firing independently even though they're wired in series. My knowledge of electronics is limited but there seems to be some kind of electronic voodoo going on or I'm missing something.
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Offline rotortiller

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Re: Ignition coils: 3Ohm vs 5Ohm: What's the difference?
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2020, 03:37:43 PM »
Yea Scott, that sounds kind of funky. Are they indeed all firing at the same time is the question?

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Ignition coils: 3Ohm vs 5Ohm: What's the difference?
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2020, 06:34:01 PM »
That's a pretty standard-looking spark trace. I'm adding the one from my Transistor Ignition for reference.
The tall trace is the first portion of the spark discharge, which bridges the gap and ionizes the air in between the tip and the ground arm. The next little "wiggles" that you see are still some spark back-and-forth between the electrodes (as described in too much detail in my book), but it is dying off slowly (so to speak) as the coil magnetically collapses and discharges. The square-turn back to 0 volts is where the points close again and the coil starts charging. During the 'flatline' portion that follows the wiggles (to the right of the wiggles) there is no more spark: that is just the residual voltage in the coil, which gets pulled back out when the points close. In very low-compression engines (or out in the air, no compression) the spark can sometimes linger that long, so often the made-for-sales videos we get to see (especially on the internet) purport this to be "longer burn time" for your engine - it is not, if your compression ratio is more than about 6:1 (80 PSI or more), because the pressure prevents the electrons from leaving the plug tip (they are effectively trapped there).

Regarding my image (on the green screen): the large spike is that ionization discharge that begins the spark, and the time that the spark stays "on" is the portion where there is an angled decline toward the final 'ringing' before the flat-line starts. When the flat-line starts, there is no more spark actually happening. This was taken on a running engine with good compression, showing a strong spark time of about 2.4 mS duration, using a TEC (Honda OEM) coil, generating about 7800v peak spark - each horizontal gridline is 200 volts high.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2020, 06:41:34 PM by HondaMan »
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Offline Ben D

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Re: Ignition coils: 3Ohm vs 5Ohm: What's the difference?
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2020, 06:57:30 PM »
Super cool concepts you guys are discussing here, never would have thought of spark duration having such importance..

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Ignition coils: 3Ohm vs 5Ohm: What's the difference?
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2020, 05:07:07 AM »
Super cool concepts you guys are discussing here, never would have thought of spark duration having such importance..
Burn time is of more importance with lean(er) mixtures.
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Offline DesertKyorugi

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Re: Ignition coils: 3Ohm vs 5Ohm: What's the difference?
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2020, 11:05:17 AM »
Very good read here but still doesn't help me decide if I should spend $85 on oem style coils, caps and wires or $105 Magna coils, caps and wires  :D ;)

What do you guys think? My JDM K1 has weak sparks from jacked-up Accel plug wires and caps
« Last Edit: March 18, 2020, 11:10:23 AM by DesertKyorugi »
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