Author Topic: Pressure in oil tank?  (Read 804 times)

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Offline fxef79

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Pressure in oil tank?
« on: March 15, 2020, 04:03:02 PM »
So I got the trike on the road today, but just around the neighborhood. Clearly I still have some work to do on the carbs to get them tuned, and the front brake is dragging. Also, once it heated up it was damn near impossible to get it into neutral while running. Just more things for the list of stuff to do. But here’s the part that I completely don’t understand: At one point I hear a sudden “Pow” and I feel and see something fly off to the side of the road. I’m panicked, I think I just blew something serious. It turns out it was the oil tank filler plug. It’s just a press in plug with the short dipstick on the bottom of it. The tank built up enough pressure to blow it right off. I headed back to the house, and when I pulled in the driveway, before I shut it off, I pulled the Oil tank filler plug out a little bit and distinctly felt a release of pressure from in the tank.

Is there some kind of vent that should be on the oil tank? None of this is OEM Honda.

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Pressure in oil tank?
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2020, 04:39:10 PM »
Any stock oil tank has a twist lock or screw in cap (with the dipstick attached). They all have a venting system as any Oil being scavenged back to the tank is likely to bring back air too. Most stock tanks also have a crankcase breather tube attached as well. A truly sealed tank is a bad idea......

Offline fxef79

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Re: Pressure in oil tank?
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2020, 04:58:36 PM »
Any stock oil tank has a twist lock or screw in cap (with the dipstick attached). They all have a venting system as any Oil being scavenged back to the tank is likely to bring back air too. Most stock tanks also have a crankcase breather tube attached as well. A truly sealed tank is a bad idea......
The crank case breather tube would introduce additional pressure, right?

The valve cover breather tube is just a few inches and ends in a little filter.

So it seems I need a vent of some kind.

Offline Bodi

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Re: Pressure in oil tank?
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2020, 05:10:42 PM »
The tank has an outlet to the oil pressure pump and an inlet from the scavenge pump. The air in it will heat up and want to expand as the oil gets hot. The oil volume in the tank changes depending on how much is scavenged vs how much is used by the pump... you absolutely need some kind of vent to let gas out and in to avoid pressure or vacuum.
I believe the stock system vented the oil tank to the transmission area of the engine, while the valvecover vent went to the airbox. Any oil tank pressure plus any engine blow-by went into out the top vent, and the tank could suck in air when needed.

Offline scottly

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Re: Pressure in oil tank?
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2020, 07:37:10 PM »
Fx, please post pics of your oil tank.
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Offline 754

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Re: Pressure in oil tank?
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2020, 08:18:13 PM »
Is it the normal rubber bung with chrome cap type ?
 I would drill a 1/16 inch or a titch smaller hole thu the cap and try it, don't overfill..
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Offline fxef79

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Re: Pressure in oil tank?
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2020, 08:27:17 PM »
Is it the normal rubber bung with chrome cap type ?

This.

Offline fxef79

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Re: Pressure in oil tank?
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2020, 08:29:30 PM »
Fx, please post pics of your oil tank.
Will do.

After some reading and research I need to confirm just what was done with the crankcase tube also. I understand a lot better now how the OEM setup worked.

Need to compare to what I have.

Offline scottly

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Re: Pressure in oil tank?
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2020, 08:56:33 PM »
The crankcase vent is the nipple on the cam cover. With a stock oil tank, there is a hose between the oil tank and the nipple on the back of the crankcase to drain any oil from the air/oil separator in the tank. On early tanks, there is a separate vent tube, which is open to atmosphere, while later tanks have no vent to atmosphere and can only vent through the nipple on the rear of the case. 
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Pressure in oil tank?
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2020, 10:11:26 PM »
Yep, Scottly is correct. My K1 oil tank is vented to atmosphere and puked oil out the vent tube one time when I dropped the bike on it's left side while running... hush don't tell anyone that !
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Offline fxef79

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Re: Pressure in oil tank?
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2020, 08:55:33 AM »
Haven't been able to make it back over to work on this, or take pics (I don't have a garage, so the trike sits in my dad's workshop), but I will!

But in the mean time I've been reading and educating myself and I understand quite a bit more about the OEM setup on the K2... obviously this isn't a stock setup (trike!), but I figure it would be best to emulate what the OEM was, as well as some improvements (based on what I read Hondaman says he does with the crank breather).

What I called the "valve cover breather" is properly the "crankcase breather" - That's why that small additional cover exists, and the cam chain tunnel is how the crankcase vents to the top of the engine.

What I called the "crankcase breather" is the nipple on the back of the transmission, and that's really a "return" for the oil that the OEM setup filters from the oil tank vent via an "oil separator".

Here's my thinking:  I need to add a vent to the tank... no question.

I also need some way to separate at least some of the oil vapor and not be sending it to atmosphere or ground or tires.  I also don't want to deal with the mess of a soaked breather filter dripping oil all over.

So let's say I get a cheap "catch can"  - something like this:
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=B07KK81KMG&ref=nb_sb_noss

I run a tube from the crankcase breather (top of the engine, on the rocker cover) under the tank towards the rear.  I "Tee" that above the oil tank with whatever I can come up with from a vent I need to add to the top of the oil tank.  The line then goes into the catch can - probably mounted just behind the oil tank.  "Out" from the catch can would be a tube run down to the area of the chain, so any possible escaping vapors (or, heaven forbid, actual oil) do their part as a "chain oiler".  Finally, run a tube from the drain on the bottom of the catch can down to the nipple on the back of the transmission - any collected oil in the catch can thus gets returned, as OEM was done.

Thoughts?

And if I ever have oil puke out the vent on the top of the oil tank from laying it down... I've got bigger problems to worry about!  (TRIKE!)


Offline fxef79

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Re: Pressure in oil tank?
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2020, 08:56:51 AM »
Oh - I did get my dad to go out and look - the nipple on the back of the transmission is just open, no cap, filter, or tube going anywhere.  That needs to be addressed, which this would do.


Offline fxef79

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Re: Pressure in oil tank?
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2020, 01:50:33 PM »
OK, so this is the deal... this oil tank is a flat-ended cylinder, about 6.5 inches diameter, about 12 inches long... essentially a "custom" style harley big twin oil tank, complete with the flat cutout on the bottom of the left side to clear the top of the primary cover on a harley big twin, and the "battery tray" cut out of the back of it (I'm not using this battery tray... my battery is mounted below the oil tank, behind the transmission, on its own little tray welded to the frame).

Turns out I thought the tank had 3 ports on the bottom (right side of the tank), but it actually has 4 ports.  One is the drain, and next to that is the supply. Then, more towards the center is a port that the oil pump return was connected to.  What I couldn't see until I disconnected and moved stuff out of the way is that 4th port, hidden behind there, that was plugged.  Drained the tank and using a mirror and one of those cheap "endoscope" USB cameras I determined that the port the oil return was connected to, and that 4th port, both have tubes inside that go to the top of the tank.  In fact, the port the oil return was connected to is just a straight tube, up to the very top of the tank and open at the top, and that 4th port is a tube that goes 3/4 up towards the top of the tank, then takes a 90 degree turn and extends all the way to the left side of the tank where it opens.  So, it seems the 4th port really should be the oil return, and the PO had the oil return connected to what is supposed to be the vent.

So I need to get another 1/8 NPT to 3/8 hose barb fitting.  I need to connect a hose to the "vent", and do something with it.

That's where I'm not sure what might be best. 

Simplest thing is just connect a hose, leave it open, and tie it off somewhere.

But I want to do something that addresses the crankcase vent, the nipple on the back of the transmission/engine, AND the oil tank vent.  Don't like that transmission port just open to the air.

I suppose I could just connect the oil tank vent to the back of the transmission... But I don't think that's right... that would result in excess pressure delivered to the transmission, which I'm not sure will be handled correctly.

I know not to connect the oil tank vent directly to the crankcase vent - both need to release pressure.  I could use a "Tee" to connect them, with one leg of the "Tee" open (with a filter, I suppose). But that doesn't address the transmission.

I could use a "Tee" and connect the oil tank vent to the transmission port, with one leg of the Tee open.  That would vent the oil tank, and if anything actually comes out of the oil tank, it could/should drain down into the transmission (that's an oil "return" line, as I understand it, anyway.  But I still have that crankcase vent with just a short little tube and filter, just waiting to get soaked and drip all over.

I could use a 4-way "Tee", to connect the crankcase vent, the oil tank vent, the transmission port, and the 4th leg being open (filter)... hoses routed so as to cause any liquid oil that happens to collect in these hoses to drain to the transmission.

That's what brings me back to the idea of the oil "catch can"... used instead of the 4-way "Tee"... Crankcase vent and oil tank vent going to the "in" of the catch can, drain of the catch can down to the transmission, and "out" of the catch can to an open hose (with filter on the end).

Just hoping for advise on whether any of you have specific advise for one of these approaches over the other, or perhaps a reason why my idea has a problem I haven't considered?



Final thought - This tank really isn't ideal - eventually I'd like to get another solution that fits better... in part because the air cleaners for the carbs are right up against it, right now... almost blocking the oil fill cap.

Included pics of the tank - mounted, and pulled out, plus the open area where the tank was.


Offline scottly

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Re: Pressure in oil tank?
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2020, 04:34:13 PM »

I suppose I could just connect the oil tank vent to the back of the transmission... But I don't think that's right... that would result in excess pressure delivered to the transmission, which I'm not sure will be handled correctly.


The transmission is open to the vent on the valve cover, and the later tanks are vented to the back of the transmission. 
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Offline fxef79

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Re: Pressure in oil tank?
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2020, 05:22:40 PM »

I suppose I could just connect the oil tank vent to the back of the transmission... But I don't think that's right... that would result in excess pressure delivered to the transmission, which I'm not sure will be handled correctly.


The transmission is open to the vent on the valve cover, and the later tanks are vented to the back of the transmission.
So your vote is just a single line, straight from the oil tank vent to the back of the motor? Easy peasy?  Just means more flow of oily vapor getting pushed out of the crankcase vent on the valve cover, right?  I already get wisps of white smoke coming out of that at idle. At least I was when I had it running on the stand when I was setting the timing.

Offline scottly

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Re: Pressure in oil tank?
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2020, 06:35:17 PM »

Final thought - This tank really isn't ideal - eventually I'd like to get another solution that fits better... in part because the air cleaners for the carbs are right up against it, right now... almost blocking the oil fill cap.


Could a stock oil tank be fitted on the right side?
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Offline fxef79

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Re: Pressure in oil tank?
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2020, 07:27:49 PM »
Could a stock oil tank be fitted on the right side?

I'm doubtful.  It's a '70s Corbin Gentry trike frame - other than engine mounts and steering neck I wouldn't think much else would match up to a factory frame.

That said, I don't have access to either a stock CB750 frame or oil tank to compare.

I've seen a lot of period pics of corbin gentry frames with a hexagonal tank that I suspect was a CG product.  Here's something more modern, but showing the same tank.  Nice shot that clearly shows the shape and space for oil tank on this frame. It's a Hondamatic, but same frame:http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll150/jpswino2/The%20Trike/Greentrike2.jpg
The whole thread is pic heavy:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hondachopper/the-trike-update-8-14-11-t39238.html?sid=a6113a798f8027696955347d85691944

Another few pics of 2-wheel frames... the downtube angle and shape on the CG trike and 2-wheel frames are the same.
http://www.chopcult.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25437&page=2
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=111286.0