Author Topic: Would the stator/charging system effect spark at high rpm? Battling a 73 836  (Read 830 times)

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Offline Ben D

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My 73 836 w/ pod filters for some reason runs great up to about 5-6k rpms when it starts stuttering and farting and popping. It Feels like I lose a cylinder or two for about 5-10 seconds after this happens. I don’t think it’s the carbs as they have been cleaned numerous times- bench synced and vacuum synced. I’ve tried every main jet from 110-150, slide needle is on the second position (one down from middle). My battery never dies but I think my charging system is weak when I rev the bike up it only reads about 12.7 volts on a multimeter. Plugs look decent, soot smoke ring insulator is a tan- chocolate color.. float heights are set properly and verified with a clear tube. Now I have noticed when this happens on the cylinders and I do a plug chop the plug strap is a gray/white color almost showing a lean symptom? Not sure what to do from here.. new coils, new points. Have not replaced condensers..
I want to get rid of the pod filters but don’t want to go back to a stock box as my bike is choppered and hard tailed, does  anybody know of a happy medium between the two that will allow for ease of tunability? Thanks in advance for all replies and considerations!

Offline seanbarney41

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get yoself an old HA breadbox and stuff the stock velocity stacks from stock airbox in there...or just run the stock velocity stacks if you are a man and can stay out of the gravel and/or the desert and/or other random dust storms
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline seanbarney41

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you got a couple more things to check...
1. Fuel flow- bowl vents not plugged and vent hoses routed to still air space
                 - tank vent clear
                 -proper filter in the petcock with NO extra fuel filters and fuel line all mostly running downhill to the bowls

2.  Spark advance-check timing with timimg strobe to make sure advancer is not stuck at idle
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline seanbarney41

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oh yeah... yes you should have 14+ volts at the battery with 4000 rpm or so.  If all you can get is 12.7 volts, you will have a dead battery sooner rather than later.  Full charging system diagnosis is well documented in the tech/tips and tricks/some godamn place on this site section here somewhere
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline PeWe

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Ignition? If stock points condensers might be  bad.
A loose/ bad HT lead
Bad plug cap
Check all connections from ign plate to coils good idea uf not done for many years.

My K6 had 836 with pods running very fine in the 80's never a problem except for Mikuni VM29 carb boots that cracked within a few months.
Stock Honda  carbs back.

I rode the bike on Autobahn several times in pouring rain in high speeds, mostly 140-160 kmh. Sometimes even faster. No carb issues at all.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 12:05:16 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Bodi

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12.6v is plenty for ignition, the alternator is not your problem there... although it does need work if you charge the battery fully and try again with this low voltage at 3000+ rpm.
So fuel and spark are the likely causes with valve timing worth checking. Confirm your exhaust is ok, I have seen problems at high power and revs from a blocked exhaust - one was packed with acorns, another just rusted badly.
Did it ever run well with the pods? Pods do need some carb work to achieve decent engine running but, despite the strong anti-pod opinions of some members, can work quite well. At least with slide carbs... CV are another story.
Be certain that your ignition is good. With points, the capacitors can cause problems and if original they should be replaced now. Gaps in spec, timed with a strobe to the advance mark at 3000+ rpm. Confirm the advancer is working. Check the coils, maybe lower primary resistance ones have been installed - that burns points and can overload a weak alternator (weak from wiring problems, the parts are near bulletproof). There are coils from other bikes that look original but have lower Ohm coils. Aftermarket coils or stock, measure primary resistance - should be 4 to 5 Ohms. Electronic ignition? Set timing as above and check that you still get good spark at high rpm, some strobes will stop working at higher rpm but see what you get and if the strobe stutters with engine also missing you probably have a failing EI. Some EI units do draw considerably more electrical power than a points setup does, contrubuting to charging problems. A 750 alternator should have lots of power but combining 3 ohm coils, a Dyna S, and high wattage headlamp ... not ideal.
You can't tune carbs backwards: you must start at WOT and then on to lower throttle settings, the main jet must be giving you decent mixture at full throttle before you proceed with lower throttle to set needle height (and modifying the needle taper can correct mid throttle issues) then pilot jet. Pilot jet usually needs to be smaller than stock for pods.
Plug chops help but are not perfect. Better than nothing though, and better than "seat of pants" tuning.

Offline Ben D

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Wow guys thanks for all the responses really appreciate y’all coming out and trying to help out with this.
So the tank is vented properly, fuel bowls are vented properly, I thought this was a fuel supply issue so I did a bunch of things to try and get more fuel to the carbs themselves (replaces black rubber hoses with clear to actually see the fuel) I routed them down hill, removed my restrictive filter, petcock is brand new and works great. I understand the theory of tuning from wot down but I can’t even rev up to wot no matter what. I have the stock ignition setup, points are gapped and brand new. The coils are 5 ohm coils. The most intriguing thing about this is I feel the bike lose a cylinder or two for 5-15 seconds after I hit wot, it eventually comes back. Could the cylinder be getting too hot and that’s not allowing spark to go through,
Been dealin with this for a month lol. Just for the record I bought the bike from somebody the way it is about a month ago, the previous owner rode it like twice and then let it sit for a a year or so,
Where do I find this breadbox??? (I also have some cheap ass velocity stacks I could put on it)

Offline Ben D

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Bike is also timed correctly- using a strobe advance springs are a little weak I believe but it fully advances. I took the timing plate and advance mechanism completely apart and cleaned it verifying they worked properly.
Btw I’ve seen numerous people have weak springs where can I get new ones...?
What is the HT lead?? I have a spare set of coils should I throw them on and try that.. replace condensers? I think it’s a spark issue because it does it in all gears. I’m nowhere near an expert as this is my first cb750

Offline PeWe

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I had to cut the springs 1/2 wound to get ignition to work properly on my last CB750 K2 build.
F lines up at 1000-1200 rpm, full advance at around 2600rpm.

I could not get Ignition right (a little bit too advanced) despite plate at max clockwise position  retard) and point at max gap(more retard).

After springs adjusted it works, at idle as well as full advance.

Both my CB750 have adjusted springs (TEC plates and points.) Both bikes have working ignitions.

Hondaman has described that before, like 10 years ago. Thanks to him I have got it to work.

My K6 had extra sloppy springs, advancer had a huge play without any spring force at all.

Ignition was way too advanced.
I'm sure it will be worse with electronuc ignitions like Pamco and Dyna-S that use the advancer.
Points  have a kind of counter force, not let it advance that easy.

First time I fixed the advancer with spring job to make Pamco to work on my K6 that had full advance way too early, later tested Dyna- S that lined up fine and finally points that work fine too.

I doubt that only my bikes are the only ones that must have the springs fixed by cutting them 1/2 wound.
I tried new springs from Yamiya, not enough for my K2.

Most guys might set it up correct for full advance as Dyna-S instruction say?
(And accept bad at lower rpm)
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Ben D

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Wait hold on... the springs can allow the system to OVER advance???? Even if timing is set at f at idle? Well #$%*... I thought the metal edges stop the timing from advancing too much??? This might be my problem

Offline bryanj

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The springs cant allow OVER advance just EARLY advance i.e. too low on rev range.
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Ben D

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Ah well my issue is at 6-7k rpm so it def ain’t that

Offline HondaMan

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The 'weak springs' situation is caused by heat-annealing of the springs on the spark advancer plate. Almost 100% of these aged bikes are affected by it: just cut off 1/2 turn of the spring(s) on the advancer and re-bend the cut end out to a half-moon to grab the weight again. I do it to almost 100% of the engines I rebuild nowadays, as they are all in this situation.

The 'cutout' of a cylinder or two is also possibly caused by erratic air pressure in the float bowls of the carbs, given the configuration of your bike. There are (were?) 2 little vent hoses from small elbows on the center 2 carbs that went to a quiet, still-air zone behind the original airbox: these vent hoses are cross-connected to the #1 and #4 carbs also by little vent hoses connecting them, at the same height location on the carbs. This is a very important item: the still, quiet air that originally fed these hoses caused the high pressure in the float bowls that pushes the fuel up the jets at throttle speeds over 1/4 open. If this whole subsystem is gone, then it is almost impossible to get the fuel pushed up from the float bowls into the throats of the carbs. Keep in mind: these are tiny engines, just 4 of them coupled to one crank, each one about the size of a lawn mower engine. So, think of them in that way when debugging stuff.

When one of the pair of carbs that is fed by one of these vents hoses loses pressure, the next cylinder in the firing order ends up with a heavier load. For example, if #2 carb's vent hose is missing, it will fire lean because the fuel can't push up its emulsifier tube: this makes #1 then suddenly experience a slightly heavier load, despite that its throttle setting is the same as for #2. This makes the whole engine uneven then, because this ripple slows the crank slightly, making #3 the next to [now] have a too-rich mix because it took in fuel at a slower rate than its throttle setting. After enough of this happens, the plugs get dark and the engine gets 'wet'. It all adds up to poor running.

When the OEM coils (now with 50 years of aging on 10-years wire insulation) start to fail, they usually fail when hot and at higher RPM. They misfire when hot, run OK (not great) when cold: that's the symptom of the coil past its age. Check out the ones at PartsNmore in their CB750K section (#17-6823) for a decent low-cost replacement that will pretty much drop right in (if you don't mind mismatched wire colors).
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Ben D

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Oh #$%* Honda man is here hahaha,
Thanks for your response. I absolutely would have never thought of this, I just inspected the elbows on the center carbs and they have no lines anywhere- I’m also missing one elbow lol??? Its like just empty - nothing there.
I’ll post a picture down below.

Offline Ben D

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Now that I’m thinking about it... I think this carburetor that doesn’t have the vent was actually replaced with a carburetor from a different position on the bike, like a previous owner took a #1 carb and put it in the #3 cyl, only reason I could think it wouldn’t have the elbow fitting or hole even.

Offline PeWe

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The sloppy spring problem is seen when trying to get F  1:4/2:3 to line up with case mark at idle.

(AND full advance not before 2500 rpm.)

I prefer idle around 1000-1200 rpm.
 1200 easier when riding in the city, not that abrupt deceleration at throttle off AND better oil pressure when really warm.

EDIT:
Here when I cut the springs first time after I have found Hondaman's description I understood was the solution for my problem. Photos of how I did in first post.

This thread is packed with great info and loads  of peoples experiences! ;)

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=131339.msg1464986.msg#1464986
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 09:52:56 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline rotortiller

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No is the simple answer. Lots of guys ran total loss electrical systems on CB 750 powered track bikes actually revving somewhat higher.

Offline Ben D

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You guys are not going to believe this- carburetor for cylinder 3 Is actually a carburetor specifically for cylinder 1- the reason I realized this is because he vacuum port is faced to the left. Somebody back in the day must have replaced them. Cylinder 3,4 are connected together but NOT vented at all!!! There is no port in carburetor #3 to put an elbow in it, yet 3-4 carbs are still connected. This means 3-4 are not getting proper ventilation which explains my serious lean conditions in those cylinders! Holy #$%* I feel like a big weight has been lifted off my shoulders. Here’s a pic-

Offline Ben D

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Here’s cyl 2 and 3 where the vent bowl elbow should be

Offline scottly

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If the problem still exists after correcting the carb vent issue, take another look at the points and condensers. If they are this brand, especially the condensers, ditch them and get TEC brand. Look for the three bladed propeller symbol on the end of the can.
 
 
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Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline Ben D

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Thanks everybody for the help and advice just got a nail in the tire when I was trying to open her up... ran a lot better than it did before but didn’t get a chance to really get into it. Will update this Friday!

Offline HondaMan

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Now that I’m thinking about it... I think this carburetor that doesn’t have the vent was actually replaced with a carburetor from a different position on the bike, like a previous owner took a #1 carb and put it in the #3 cyl, only reason I could think it wouldn’t have the elbow fitting or hole even.

That's gotta be a tough one to adjust the air screw, too!  :o
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Ben D

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The worst part is trying to hook up the vacuum on that carb too

Offline Tom C

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When the OEM coils (now with 50 years of aging on 10-years wire insulation) start to fail, they usually fail when hot and at higher RPM. They misfire when hot, run OK (not great) when cold: that's the symptom of the coil past its age. Check out the ones at PartsNmore in their CB750K section (#17-6823) for a decent low-cost replacement that will pretty much drop right in (if you don't mind mismatched wire colors).

Mark, do you know if the #17-6823 coils will fit a 74 CB550K0?
74 CB550K0

Offline HondaMan

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When the OEM coils (now with 50 years of aging on 10-years wire insulation) start to fail, they usually fail when hot and at higher RPM. They misfire when hot, run OK (not great) when cold: that's the symptom of the coil past its age. Check out the ones at PartsNmore in their CB750K section (#17-6823) for a decent low-cost replacement that will pretty much drop right in (if you don't mind mismatched wire colors).

Mark, do you know if the #17-6823 coils will fit a 74 CB550K0?
Yep, and I even installed some on a 550 once!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com