Topic: Ultima Plus wiring harness on CB400F2?

[Beza]

Hi Everybody, I was just wondering if anyone here has any experience with the Ultima Plus (18-533) wiring harness, and whether this can be used on my 77 CB400f2. The reason I am asking is that I bought this for an old hondamatic I was going to fix up and flip, but someone ended up giving me far more that the thing was worth anyway, and so I found it yesterday when I was cleaning out the garage...

Then I looked over at my 400 and the gears started turning...

The reason this thing might be ok is that I want to save as much of the original harness as possible, put it aside, and then just do bolt-on conversions for this summer. Basically lighting, possibly new reg/rect, and new solenoid, etc. I was also considering slapping on an electronic ignition system as well, but at the end of the day - I actually have this thing here in my sweaty hands and I'm wondering if its possible.

Here is the instruction pdf for anyone interested:

http://www.ultimaproducts.com/18-533.pdf

Now I am no wiring expert by any means, but on this outline there is only one wire going to what appears to be a single coil... I know this thing is meant for harleys, but does anyone know if they have single or double coils? Could I just run 2 lines off the thing to power both coils at the same time? I think I remember hearing that this might not matter because it's the points that determine where the actual voltage goes... any thoughts?

Any help would be much appreciated, as I don't want to destroy what is a wicked old bike, and I suppose I could just try to sell this Ultima thing... or try to use it on my CB77 someday when I get to it. Don't worry about telling me I should have bought a motogadget, I want one, but they seem impossible to find in Canada, and no I am not paying $500 for one, lol.

Cheers
Shawn

[calj737]

So I understand correctly: you want to use ONLY the Ultima harness and plug it into your stock CB400? If that is so, then:

- Are the connectors on the harness compatible in gender and quantity to plug in? If not, are you planning to make ends?
- Are you prepared to color splice from stock Honda schemes to Ultima harness?
- Are you planning on using their "Control box", whatever that is?

You asked about the single coil feed wire; you need to run 12v (switched) to both coils on your bike, so a jumper from one to the other is fine (Ultima WHT/BLK wire)

If you are willing to undertake "all this effort", then why not simply make a new harness to suit your goals and replace your stock electrical components at that time? Exchange rates are a bee-yatch at times...

[Beza]

Hey calj737, thanks for the quick reply! I was not expecting that kind of fast action, ha ha. I was out messing with the thing all day and would have replied sooner but I think my settings are screwed (I'm still new on this).

Anyways, yeah, my big question was about that coil thing, and it looks like you gave me the answer I needed. Tomorrow maybe I'll start getting everything ready for it.

To answer your questions, yes, everything looks to be compatible, although it will not be color coded to honda stuff, but hopefully I can make some neat little tags... Other than that, I will be using the connectors that were in the kit, and I'm pretty sure the Honda stuff is 18 and 20 ga so should work fine. The way the Ultima works is that basically everything is regulated/rectified out of the control box, from what I can tell, and they have about 2 or 3' of wiring for every run coming out of it. It is a sealed box, solid, and about the size of an old cassette tape case.

Basically the reason I will be doing this is so I can take the actual stock wiring harness and put it away with all the other stock parts I will remove. I'm not hacking anything on this bike, I want it to be possible to put it back to stock one day when I have enough money to restore it completely. I actually sat and mulled over whether it would be appropriate to cut off the seat hinge and lock for about 1.5hours today (with the help of a few bottles of beer and some good country music), and decided I would leave them.

Other than that the huge bonus of using this wiring system is that it is an entire loom, no reg/rect, and I can specifically hack and slash it without feeling bad. I will be running everything into an extra CB77 headlight bucket that I have, and I will incorporate a mini speedo as well as my own LED indicators, key setup, and panel design.

Sounds kinda dumb, but I want to try something fun to impress my cousin that has a hotrod shop, and show him just how sweet these old little hondas can be! It is by far the quietest little bike I've ever owned, and I can't wait to get it out on the road this summer!

[calj737]

No Reg/Rec? Or is it embedded in the control box?

[Beza]

That's correct. Otherwise I can only assume they would have included it in the wiring schematic, but on this one it clearly goes straight from the battery to the box and the solenoid, which to me would mean that the box regulates (rectifies?) the voltage down to the signal voltage that operates the solenoid. Otherwise, what the hell would be the point in it? Ha ha, I think that basically this thing IS a reg/rect that just runs everything out of one location. Oh, and it also appears to remove the need for fuses (?) which is a little scary as well. I honestly don't know enough about solid state electronics to be able to make these calls, which is why I am on here asking questions...

[calj737]

I think you are mistaken. The absence of a reg/rec in the diagram is not an indication its included. There's not a stator shown either. I believe the unit is a solid state fuse box only. The reg/rec will bypass this except to obtain a 12v switched reading from the battery to supply the stator charge back to the battery.

For instance, on a Ricks reg/rec unit, the loose black wire taps into the stock Honda black after the key switch to read the state of the battery. It's loose red then attached to battery to recharge the battery. Make sense?

[Beza]

Oh my god, the only thing that makes sense to me is that I really don't know what the hell I am doing, ha ha.

Now that I'm thinking about it, you are likely absolutely right... none of that stuff is in the diagrams, so this thing is probably a glorified fuse box and switch relay. Wtf. Stupid!

If I want to use this, then I will have to figure out how to run with the reg and rect until I can grab a Rick's or something like it. Really, when it comes to that it looks like this thing was a huge waste of money. Maybe a motogadget is in my future, after all. I need to do some more research, and the fact that this product has pretty much zero literature available should have been my first indication that it was going to be a turd.

[calj737]

And by the way, you'll still need to use a separate solenoid (even with a motogadget unit)

[Beza]

geez. lol.

But seriously, after being out all day and even stopping to talk to my crusty old dad about it (his response was "What is this regulator and rectifier bull#$%*, when alternators have been doing this for a hundred years already? Go take a little alternator off a kubota and have that run with a gear or belt setup where this stuff is") I am once again going to try to figure out how to learn what the process is for setting up this thing or the motogadget.

So if one were to use this... with the full knowledge that the charging, reg/rect, as well as solenoid and coils also have to be used, how would that happen? Has anyone done this yet? I'm sure if I search hard enough I can figure out how to do it with the motogadget, and apply that same logic to this thing...

Off to do some reading!

In the meantime, if anyone knows how to set something like this up and wants to lend me some advice, that would be awesome. Thanks for the wake-up call calj737! Lol. If the thing had even run with the way I was going to do it, it wouldn't have been for very long!

[calj737]

basically, it seems like it would behave very much like a MotoGadget m-unit, perhaps minus some programmability.

Consider that device your "fuse" box. Nothing more. It appears to have internal relays for indicators, so thats good. But you will use it navigate the signal wires (control switches at handlebars) into the device, pass through a separate circuit (fuse protected individually) and then deliver 12v power to the component (light, turn signal, tail light, etc...).

Outside of this, there is a Starter Solenoid (this gets a signal from the START button on the handlebar) which "excites" the starter motor. VROOM! Once the engine is running, the stator (kind of like an alternator) creates AC current. This gets delivered to the Rectifier (stock) and to the Regulator (stock) which team up together to "recharge" the battery while your bike is running (our bikes don't create enough charge until above 2500RPMS, so until then, you're running off the battery only) and restore the depleted battery.

The modern Reg/Rec combines both functions into a single device. Rectify the AC current to DC (battery is DC) and Regulate (limit the stator from sending too much voltage to battery). Not that hard really.

The coils generate the spark basically. They need 12v power (stock BLACK/WHT wire) when the key is ON and bike is in RUN. The timing plate under the right side cover, tells the coils when to send the spark to the plugs.

So, now you're a motorcycle electrician  Some of this is a bit simplified and not 100% technically verbatim, but you get the gist of it all now.

I honestly don't know the benefit of that device versus a regular ATC blade fuse module. Maybe some internal relays for the turn signals? I do know the MotoGadget stuff quite well. It too is pricey, but it does have some very cool features, if you're into that sort of thing. (I am, I confess). I don't think it would be hard to create a capable diagram for either route, but both will likely require some modification, mounting, and I think you'd be well served if you do use it, to go ahead and buy a modern Reg/Rec. My opinion.

Let me know if I can help-

[Beza]

Cal, seriously, thanks for your responses and help. This has cleared up a lot of the fog that surrounds this craziness of getting a DC charging current from a spinning bike motor for a newb like me! Like I said, basically everything, all the switches, indicators, lights, etc, are going to be bolted on as new, and this bike (until I get more money in the future, wherever that may come from) will be a cheap hipster's dream.

So that's why I think I'm going to go this route. My bike is an F2, which up here in Canada is literally impossible to get parts for, so I might as well have some fun with it for the time being. I already have the stupid Ultima control box, so I might as well use it, too.

I'll draw up a wiring diagram before I actually fire anything together, and I'll post it on here or PM it to you, and find out what you think of it. I see that you have already been pretty awesome on giving advice on the M unit, and there seems to be lots of info on that... which is always a future option.

[calj737]

This has cleared up a lot of the fog that surrounds this craziness of getting a AC charging current from a spinning bike motor for a newb like me!

I already have the stupid Ultima control box, so I might as well use it, too.

I'll draw up a wiring diagram before I actually fire anything together, and I'll post it on here or PM it to you, and find out what you think of it. I see that you have already been pretty awesome on giving advice on the M unit, and there seems to be lots of info on that... which is always a future option.

Fixed that for you! (Apparently, some lingering fog...)

Wiring diagrams are pretty easy. Everything is color-coded from stock, and the Ultima documents its colors too.

A Word of Caution! Okay, maybe a few words...
The Ultima uses GREEN for 12v Power and BLACK for GROUND. This is the absolute REVERSE of stock Honda. Do NOT get confused on this!!!! If you plug their harness into your components with reversed polarity, Bad and Expensive things WILL OCCUR.

This is not meant to frighten you or dissuade you from doing it, but this is a critical point and you need to keep completely organized with this change. If you don't own a digital mutlimeter, go buy one ($40-$70 is all you need to spend). Test continuity with every connection WITHOUT the battery connected. This will insure your grounds and power circuits are correct and not reversed.

Now, get to work! 

[Jhernan028]

Cal, seriously, thanks for your responses and help. This has cleared up a lot of the fog that surrounds this craziness of getting a DC charging current from a spinning bike motor for a newb like me! Like I said, basically everything, all the switches, indicators, lights, etc, are going to be bolted on as new, and this bike (until I get more money in the future, wherever that may come from) will be a cheap hipster's dream.

So that's why I think I'm going to go this route. My bike is an F2, which up here in Canada is literally impossible to get parts for, so I might as well have some fun with it for the time being. I already have the stupid Ultima control box, so I might as well use it, too.




Help did you make a diagram with the regulator ?
I'll draw up a wiring diagram before I actually fire anything together, and I'll post it on here or PM it to you, and find out what you think of it. I see that you have already been pretty awesome on giving advice on the M unit, and there seems to be lots of info on that... which is always a future option.

[TourDeFrantz]

Hi all,

in a similar boat with the Ultima 18-533 and my Honda CM400. Everything is great except no spark. spark plugs test good and same with ignition coil...

so... did you ever draw up that diagram? I'd be curious to see how you wired the ultima's 'Coil +' B/W wire? did it go to the CDI or bypass to the coil? I am having very little luck with either configuration...

any help/advice would be most welcome.

Would definitely do an mUnit next time to save all the time and headaches and to be back on my bike way sooner!

Thanks,

Scott