Author Topic: Secondary Resistance + spark duration and voltage - electrical heads inquired!  (Read 724 times)

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Offline Winters

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Regarding the multiple and multiple topics I’ve read here on resistances for caps and the like, I’m wondering the theory behind it.

From what I understand, a lower secondary resistance is equated to a longer spark duration and higher spark voltage, and some other places validate that,

yet here the loop resistance (caused by secondary resistance including caps and plugs) is equated to a longer duration lower voltage spark at an example of, 10k ohm caps or 5+5 caps and plugs versus 5k ohm caps and non resistor plugs.

I’m currently running 5k ohm caps and 5k ohm plugs (DR7EA) on my 550 with a total resistance of measuring around 32.5k ohms, and seeing HM’s recommendation on some ND X22ES plugs I went ahead and found a set of boxed X22ES-GU plugs to throw in (non resistor).

Help me understand how a higher secondary resistance is equated to a longer spark
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 11:43:37 PM by Winters »

Offline scottly

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Resistor caps and wire are used to suppress radio interference, especially on the AM band.
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Offline Deltarider

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Resistor caps and wire are used to suppress radio interference, especially on the AM band.
This and only this^.
All the rest is unproven. I strongly recommend NOT to have resistor spark plugs AND resistor caps. If you have the choice, choose resistor plug caps. They are more reliable than resistor spark plugs. I've read quite some complaints about "R" type spark plugs and some dealers openly advice NOT to have them.
Example: www.Honda4.NL warns In Dutch:
 Het NGK boekje schrijft een bougie voor met een "R" in de code.
Haal deze bougie maar gelijk uit de motor, hij zal op willekeurige momenten doorslaan.
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Offline Winters

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I’ve actually ran my caps and plugs for over a year now ( though probably only 1k miles on them ) and their resistance seems to have not changed, if even at all.

The rest is technically proven but I’m trying to understand it or why people say it’s that way, and others say it’s the other way, and a good friend of mine who’s also an EE says it’s both.

For example, according to the picture attached

Offline HondaMan

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The purpose of the resistance in the spark circuit is solely to reduce the peak current. This has 3 side-effects that are useful:

1. The slower rise-time of the discharge reduces radio interference to nearby amplitude-modulated (AM) radio equipment, like CB radios, HAM radios, and car AM radios. For this reason, some countries (notably Canada and Great Britain, now called UK) force the bike companies to use resistor caps and/or plugs.
2. Less spark current directly becomes cooler-running coils. Considering where they have to live, that's not trivial!
3. The slower rise-time also extends the LENGTH OF TIME (aka 'duration') of the spark, and the old images on my oscilloscope, shown during the development of the Transistor Ignition here in these pages, clearly show this when I used both resistor- and non-resistor plugs for that testing. More resistance, all else being equal, makes for a longer spark. This is a useful side effect in engines that require longer spark burn time.

The SOHC4 engines, most notably the 750 and 350F, are undersquare engines that benefit a lot from longer-duration spark. When I have to ride mine in town more than on the hiway, I use resistor plugs in addition to the resistor caps to help keep the plugs cleaner: above 5500 RPM the non-resistor plugs deliver a little better gas mileage when riding 2-up with 500-600 lbs of [camping and female] gear aboard. Honda used 7500 ohm plug caps on these bikes until 1975 when the 10,000 ohm caps appeared t appease the AM radio crowd. The plugs were always non-resistor type from Honda in those days because they were cheaper, and Honda was concerned over every Yen they spent on these bikes.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline Winters

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That makes some sense to me, excuse me due in part since I’ve been away from all of this for a while. My general understanding is that this is just a giant LRC circuit, and as you’ve even said before changing the capacitance value affects the operation of these coils so we can pick where we technically want them to operate best.

The one thing I’m not understanding is how I’m receiving two answers to this. In real time I know things aren’t constant but in a theoretical sense, should I be looking at this as the higher the resistance the lower the current wherein the voltage is, in a sense, an expected value? Also, why would there be some saying that higher secondary resistance leads to a shorter spark duration?

I feel like I’m missing something in my head that I’m not sure which is more correct, and I have seen your oscilloscope readings and what I do know with an LRC circuit it makes sense that it would stretch the rise time. How does this exactly correlate to spark duration, however?

I think my largest question is, on a 550 with stock 550 coils (they do measure 14.5k on 1-4 and 14.2k on the other 2-3 coil) my current 5k caps (measuring about 4.8k for both the 2-3 caps and 4.4k for both the 1-4 caps) how much detriment would it be to run non resistor plugs? I read your post regarding the ND X22 plugs and I actually scored a cheap box of the older -GU plugs, which ND does not list in their current nomenclature but online specifications show it being as comparable to a d7ev which was a gold tip I believe, and I realized that ND does make resistor plugs but since I have a box of these I was going to run them anyways.

I have seen the posts regarding dyna coils having a duration below 1ms, and I prefer points anyways, so I run stock coils with stock points. They are gapped on the smaller side (which by a dwell meter probably provides more dwell than designed, I do not have one of those, I’m at .013 on them). I haven’t exactly written down the math as to how much duration I lose by going 10k less than designed on the overall loop, if I could even equate that, I’m just hoping it’s not so detrimental to how the engineers designed these. I keep reading swirl charge for the 750s but not the 550s, and I do believe  there was a reason why they designed these coils for 10k on each lead.

Offline scottly

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When I was trained to use an ignition analyzer scope something close to 50 years ago, the main thing one looked at was the peak secondary voltage, not the spark duration. As far as secondary resistance, a V-8 with carbon core resistance wires could have a range of 10K ohms to 50K ohms, depending on the length, with no operational problems. 
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Offline Winters

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I read something here how duration assists the flame front in these bikes, which is more pronoun in the 750 due to their swirl charge design.

And also if that is the case, why do they recommend replacing caps once they are above a certain ‘limit’ on our bikes (seemingly short, ie 11k from 10k) nor running no resistance. Our current coils themselves provide 14.5k of resistance alone

Offline scottly

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I have a CD ignition, which has a very short spark duration, and it's not an issue. ::)
Who is this "they" that recommends replacing caps??
These are all moot points, no pun intended, and not worth of further discussion, IMHO. ;)   
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Offline Deltarider

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I'm with Scottly. This is what I know (not much). If the initial peak in spark is not enough to create a flame front which is to execute the combustion, there's still the burn time at the electrodes to help. See it as a reserve. Under normal circumstances it may well be the initial peak is enough, who knows? Furthermore, it may well be even our bikes can perform OK with a CDI ignition that practically has no burn time but only an ultra short high peak. Realise that it's the travelling flamefront that does the combustion, not the spark. The spark only has to ignite a little bit of mixture around the electrodes, not all of the mixture in the combustion chamber. If there are oscilloscope images around that show a longer spark duration when a higher secundary resistance is applied, I'm curious to see them. In fact I have asked for them for years. Then, even if there's a longer duration shown, we still have to evaluate if it is benificial. I can't rule out that part of that burning time is in fact an overkill, provided the flamefront is doing its duty. Personally I am not fond of presenting claims that are thus vague that the effects can never be reproduced by other 'scientists'. When I don't see, let alone experience these effects, I classify them to be within the noise band at best. At best. 
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Offline Winters

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Haha thanks for the input guys. I guess in essence what I’m trying to understand is the detriment to running 10k less, since the only available caps are 5k nowadays, and that I’m going to be running non resistor plugs in them now. Also in regards to they, I believe hondaman and TT know enough about these bikes as to suggest when a spark cap goes bad (note nowhere in the factory manuals or service guides and the like have I seen this) but in theory passing a certain value shouldn’t destroy the system, merely just alter the spark characteristic where it isn’t favorable. My original caps read 16-10-11-8. I can’t prove if this caused problems because I changed them while chasing down problems not seemingly caused by them. I went ahead and replaced them with caps reading 4.8 and 4.4 respectively, with very little deviance between the two for each side of the same coil.

That, and along the fact that I see both types of information and some ‘vague proof’. I haven’t written down to calculate myself, whereas some say the higher resistance causes lower current to provide a longer spark duration, others say the lower resistance causes lower current. I do not have access to an oscilloscope nowadays, but regardless, it seems that whether 5k, 10k, or 15k in the secondary added on top of the leads, does something we don’t know clearly, but also sounds like it doesn’t affect much (besides the then proven EMF).

The only other thing I can’t find complete verification for is having a deviance between the leads being by an issue. Maybe because I haven’t been trying to equate any of these, but since these are a waste spark system and that secondary resistance is measured in both ends, why couldn’t you run a 5k in one lead and a 10k in the other on the same coil? Maybe I’ll have to draw these up and simulate the system to better understand it.

I do know that there will be a voltage drop across a resistor, which does in fact reduce current, maybe I’m trying to look at it more complicated than it really is.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 04:09:48 AM by Winters »

Offline HondaMan

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About your last query: having one plug circuit with lower resistance and one with higher resistance simulates what happens when one of the caps burns out in these bikes. The lion's share of the current during coil discharge then routes to the lower-resistance side whiel the higher-resistance side gets a [slightly] later spark as the current builds up far enough to jump the plug's gap. In actual bikes, this makes one cylinder of the pair slightly pop (backfire, softly) during a long decel drift down a hill, the first clue that the plug involved is not burning as much fuel as its 'partner' on that coil. on a 4-pipe bike (like mine) it is pretty easy to diagnose which side, and I have done this drill 4 times in the 145,000 miles my bike has experienced so far. In each case the 'pop' would start to appear when the resistance of the plug caps varied from one another by about 800 ohms or more, but it still ran Ok. Changing the caps solved it each time.

On the 550, all but the 1st year (1975) used 10,000 ohm caps OEM. This happened when they switched the coils to the 4.3 ohm primary versions from the original 500/750 4.5 ohm primary versions: the 500-4 had the same coils as the 750, despite the middle partnumber being different until 1990-something when they "harmonized" some of the electrical parts' numbers. Even the mounting brackets were the same, but with different middle partnumbers, and interchanged just fine.

The 4.3 ohm primary coils make about 400-600 volts more spark voltage at 7500 ohm plug caps that do the 4.5 ohm coils. Into 10,000 ohm caps this voltage is slightly higher. The difference is due to the engine difference: the 750 head is a swirl-charge design until the -392- head, when it became a semi-hemi instead. That corresponded to the 750 then also receiving (...drum roll...) 4.3 ohm primary coils, later harmonized to become [...cymbal clash...] CB550 coil partnumbers with the extension -630 as the last 3 digits, for both bikes. When holding the coils in your hand, they have the same "TEC" maker's mark and part number on them... today, if you order the -300- partnumber coils for the 750 (with the -6xx last 3 digits) they are the identical parts as for the 550, as I have recently ordered both.

The reason the slightly-longer spark duration matters in the 750, but not in the 500/550, is: the 750 swirls the intake charge into what Honda once used to call the "whirlwind stratification" (which you will also see referred to in their articles on their racing engines of similar design during the late 1960s and early 1970s) while the 500/550 do not. The general idea behind it is: while the spark is happening, it is igniting the fuel mix that is spinning past the spark. In swirl-charge engines this translates to a wider flamefront for larger ignition: in the undersquare 750 (and 350F) this also means it pushes longer down the power stroke than if not swirled. In 750 engines that were hemi'd (like the one in my book) this proved out: the low-end torque increases while the top speed decreases. Thus, it is useful to hemi the 750 head with big bores (beyond 63mm), but not below that, all else being equal.

In the simpler 500/550 chamber without swirl and an oversquare stroke, and more overlap ignition sensitivity (aka weak low-end torque) to long-duration sparks, a shorter spark duration matters. In the later 500 with the 10k caps, this also comes slightly later in time (as measured in microseconds) and helps reduce the backburn issues that plague this engine and caused Honda to spend a lot of Yen to make long intake runners to hold the carbs - just like on the singles of similar design. Mechanically delaying the spark advance improves both the low-end torque and cleans the plugs, letting you run colder plugs on hiway trips at today's Interstate speeds without risking burnt exhaust valves after a while. The D8ES-L/DR8ES-L or X24ES-U/XR24ES-U are all suitable for this type of riding.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com