Author Topic: Reel to reel Luddite guy.  (Read 4831 times)

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Reel to reel Luddite guy.
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2007, 12:09:56 PM »
The biggest pity these days is that there is all this super-duper techno stuff, with nothing modern worthy to play on it....

Carefull there Mr. Stodgy.  While the pop chart stuff is best left unheard, there is quite a bit of good music being published today.  If you're a fan of Progressive Rock, Fusion, Jazz, or experimental rock, you might give auralmoon.com a listen.  While they do play stuff I'd rather not listen to, they also play an amazing amount of very good, too!  My CD collection has grown quite bit since I started listening there.

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Offline gerhed

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Re: Reel to reel Luddite guy.
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2007, 01:37:25 PM »
Why ride an old bike when you can ride a new bike?
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Offline Killer Canary

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Re: Reel to reel Luddite guy.
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2007, 06:03:47 PM »
Anyway, this thing got the house special, stripped down and revitalised all rubber rollers, replaced burnt out VU meter lamps, cleaned all switches, rigged ip a felt pad in the tape path to stop the oxide from the old tapes constantly clogging the heads and more.
Yesterday, I tore down my Tandy TR 3000 r to r, looks like the transformer is cacked. The trans is made by TEAC, anyone know where to try for parts?
I also did an alignment on a 10 pack car CD.Several generations of audio technology in one day.
If it's worth doing at all it's worth over-doing.
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Offline techy5025

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Re: Reel to reel Luddite guy.
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2007, 06:29:20 PM »
I have a Technics 10 1/2 inch reel/reel that I got in the 70's. It was unique in
that the tape heads were in a loop formed by two pinch rollers running on
opposite sides of a drum which was driven directly by a slow turning motor. The
advantage was that the heads were totally isolated from the reels.  I still have
four or five reels that I use for background music. Somewhere in the house is
a 8 track recorder as mentioned above for recording carts for the car.

Most of the electronics in the late sixties...early 70's still used off the shelf
discrete electronic parts which are still available so they are easy to fix.  In the
later years everything was designed with custom integrated circuits which are
usually hard to get...especially after a few years.

I still need to get a NEC beta machine going so I can transfer a bunch of beta
tapes to DVD...or should I wait a few months and use Blu-Ray?  ;D  :o

...and yes, us old fogies are dating ourselves.  :D

Jim
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Offline bill440cars

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Re: Reel to reel Luddite guy.
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2007, 08:03:36 PM »


          Kinda off the subject but yet nostalgic too. How many remember and liked the  reverberators of back in the early 60's? ??? I'll tell you, I really liked the sound of some songs after they went through my Motorola Vibrasonic Reverberator. (basically, there was an adjustable spring, with other electrical components in a metal box and the music was sent over the spring, before it got to the speakers) Somebody with the knowledge, help me out with the technical jargon. Back then, a car radio with front and rear speakers and a reverb was THE setup. It gave the sound sort of an echo effect. That's the best way I can describe it.

                                                    Later on, Bill :) 
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Offline techy5025

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Re: Reel to reel Luddite guy.
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2007, 08:47:04 PM »
Bill,

The purpose of the spring was to create a delay. For explanation purposes,
the spring was excited by a speaker at one end, the mechanical vibrations thus
induced propagated the length of the spring, and were then picked up by the
equivalent of a microphone at the other end. The delayed sound was then
added back to the original and sent back through the springy thing. By controlling
the amount added back you could create a decaying effect in the sound. The length
of the spring obviously controlled the delay time.

The springs had to be shock mounted as they were very sensitive to mechanical
shocks also. They also had units with multiple springs which would create different
delay times. All of this can be done electronically now...or with software.

I had a Pioneer home receiver that had a reverb unit built in. Was unique for the
time.  :)

Jim
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Offline DammitDan

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Re: Reel to reel Luddite guy.
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2007, 08:52:00 PM »
Wow, I've never heard of a consumer reverb before.  Especially back in the 60s and 70s.
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Offline bill440cars

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Re: Reel to reel Luddite guy.
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2007, 04:56:46 AM »

     techy,  Thanks for the clarification there. Back in the time, I had a reverb hooked up to my stereo (when stationed in Japan). It was a Pioneer SX440 tuner/amp, Akai 1800 reel to reel w/8track player & recorder, a Garrard turntable and a pair of Pioneer speakers (don't remember what model speakers). You ought to have heard something like the soundtrack from The Good, The Bad and The Ugly by Hugo Montenegro, or anything along that line. 8)


       Hey Dan, Yeah, we thought we were HOT STUFF ;D with our front and rear speakers and a reverb!
Then some had a 45 rpm record player in their car too! 8) Then came the 4 track tape player and so on.

                                                          Later on, Bill :) ;)         
Member # 1969
PRAYERS ALWAYS FOR: Bre, Jeff & Virginia, Bear, Trevor & Brianna ( Close Friend's Daughter)
"Because HE lives, I can Face Tomorrow"                  
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Offline Bodi

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Re: Reel to reel Luddite guy.
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2007, 07:34:30 AM »
Man, you're getting burned with 4 gram quarters. Should be 7 grams, one ounce = 28.35 grams (avoirdupois ounces). And you could have smoked your whole 60's/70's 1/4 pound and got less effect than a few pulls from today's stuff.
Many CDs sound crappy, every pop CD I've heard sounds horrid. The "old" stuff that's mastered on tape actually can sound pretty good on CD, if the engineer doesn't use the super compressor settings common with new pop stuff.
There are lots of amazing sounding classical and jazz CDs but try the same release on SACD or DVD-Audio and you'll immediately appreciate that there are severe limits inherent in red book CD audio. The 5.1 native releases I've heard are interesting, but sythesizing 5.1 from legacy 2 channel masters sounds like sh!t.
LP mastering was an art, and with an expert cutting engineer a record could sound amazing using a good turntable/arm/cartridge. The best sound I've ever heard from a turntable was a lacquer test pressing of a jazz release. Too bad it only lasted 2 or 3 playings - vinyl lasts a lot longer but will always eventually wear out and can be ruined by one playing with a bad stylus or on a "cheapo" record player; keep your equipment in good shape and NEVER loan out an LP.
Cassettes were complete crap IMO. Using dictating media for music makes little sense. You lost dynamicrange, frequency response, and random access. At it's peak of development the cassette was "not too bad" and it changed the car "radio" forever into a personal music player and made the walkman/discman/"ipod" type digital player portable a possibility.

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Re: Reel to reel Luddite guy.
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2007, 07:53:01 AM »
Hey Bodi,

4 OUNCE quarters not quarter ounces. There was good stuff then too. Panama Red, Columbia gold, Thai sticks. The real import stuff. You just had to have the right connections. However new is good.
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Offline Rushoid

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Re: Reel to reel Luddite guy.
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2007, 08:51:04 AM »
"Moving Pictures" by RUSH( I always capitalize RUSH).
OH YEAH!  8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

The thing with vinyl is that it's dirty. In a good way. I usually prefer CDs because I like clarity, but there's nothing like that raw, dirty sound of a record. I have an old Victrola and I love listening to those old, tinny 78s. Drives my wife nuts, but listening to old stuff like that just feels right somehow.

I've only known one person with a reel to reel but I remember being blown away by the sound. I'd love to have one for no other reason than I like old stuff like that.

My mom got a record player for Christmas this year and my sister and I had a blast pulling out the old albums from our youth. Funny thing: My sister put on an old Beach Boys album and was trying to find the 10th song. She kept setting the needle down but it was only the 4th or 5th. She asked me what she was missing and I didn't know either. Then it hit us at the same time; there are TWO sides to an album!  ::) :-[ ;D

Did anyone answer the trivia question? Number of grooves in a standard length record? ONE!  :D
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Offline DammitDan

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Re: Reel to reel Luddite guy.
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2007, 10:09:15 AM »
Did anyone answer the trivia question? Number of grooves in a standard length record? ONE!  :D

I was the only person in my mastering class to get that one right on the first test  ;D ;D ;D
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Reel to reel Luddite guy.
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2007, 12:02:23 PM »
Vinyl played on a top turntable with a top notch cartridge will sound betterthan a CD. CDs clip off sounds and do not carry the whole spectrum. All of our ears are different and sound will decay as different frequencies. CDs clip at the average human ear. Some can hear that some cannot.
 I sold high end stereo through High School and College A lot of it was still Tube. 8 Tracks should always have a matchbook attached to it since the heads went out of alignment and you would slide the matchbook in and out to eliminate the crosstalk.
Reel to Reel was awesome since it had the same range as vinyl without the pops that every record has.(Yes I know yours do not) but in the Store we changed demo records every week.

Back in the early days of ebay I paid off my house selling Vintage audio. I knew the gear and I could buy it cheap at Estate sales. I still have six or eight turntables, several 8 Track players or Recorders I have to sell off.

What I actually use on a daily basis is a Solid State Denon Component System with a Sony 100 CD changer running into some BOSE 501s in the front and Advents in the rear. I hold all the vintage audio in high regard, but I also like convenience.

If you want some really nice sounding Vintage sound, get a Yamaha Natural Sound, best bang for the buck.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline Bodi

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Re: Reel to reel Luddite guy.
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2007, 12:25:30 PM »
Silly, there are 2 grooves in a standard record. One on each side.
Monty Python (I think) put out a LP with 2 grooves and 2 separate programs on one side.

Offline Jv550

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Re: Reel to reel Luddite guy.
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2007, 01:19:02 PM »
Lots of bands and producers still insist on recording on tape - especially for loud or dynamic rock bands - because it is much more forgiving than digital input sources. Record tracks too hot to a digital input and you get this awful clipping sound. Do the same on a tape and you get a warm, natural-sounding distortion. A lot of rockers I know will do basic tracks on tape and dump them into protools or something for mixdowns.

I am a low-tech hack so I still like to use my old Ross four-track for recording basics and then mix them into a flash four or minidisc, but if I had lots of time and money I'd get a fat-tape machine for tracking and mix them into digital later.

Tape hiss and vinyl pop are not always bad either - plenty of producers (especially in hip-hop) actually add those on top of a mix to thicken it out...
That's like hypnotizing chickens...

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Reel to reel Luddite guy.
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2007, 02:05:01 PM »
Actually, giutar amps have gone back to tubes for the preamp at least. The amps of the late 60's and 70's, Fender, Kustom, Sunn etc were very powerful, but they had inherient buzzes, hisses, and other strange sounds coming out of them, not to mention distortion. The Rock guitar Gods actually incorporated those sounds and worked with them. Hip Hop guys do use record hissing sounds, I notice them on some Eminem songs.  When today's modern amps came out those sounds were missing, so you will see the guitarists play through a old tube amp which then has it's sound pumped through more powerful units.
The spring reverb was just that, a group of springs in which some sound was passed through. My Fender Hot Rod amp has spring reverb. If you bounce that amp or the old amps you get a crashing sound. That effect was used at the beginning of the song Wipeout. Sadly enough, I am old enough to to have used and watched this stuff being used. Peace, Love, and Woodstock.   
     
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline techy5025

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Re: Reel to reel Luddite guy.
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2007, 03:32:35 PM »
I'm certainly not an expert on rock music, but I thought the idea was to introduce
distortion....especially on the guitars...so how could digital clipping be heard? Now
on anything that is mostly sinusoidal such as a piano or acoustic guitar it would be deadly.

Jim
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Reel to reel Luddite guy.
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2007, 04:18:16 PM »
Anyway, this thing got the house special, stripped down and revitalised all rubber rollers,

If I may ask, KC, what are you using to revitalize the rubber?

I've got a Gerrard Zero 100 that now has noticeable rumble due to the hardened rubber on the turntable drive roller.  Wish I could buy a new production one.

Hey Techy,
There's distortion and there is distortion.  See the difference?

No really, its the harmonic content in the distortion that make distortion part of the art form. A clipped square wave has a very different sound than a clipped sinusoidal with its curved leading and trailing edges.  Beyond that, there is the funny looking rise times and fall times and the "flat" tops of a clipped signal can have wiggles (over/undershoots), all contributing to the heard sound from the speakers.
Digital devices usually have a higher frequency response and this is heard as a sharper, harsher sound.  The guitar amp reproduction inaccuracies actually add to or make up a part of the instruments sound.

When remasters of earlier recording are performed, modern equipment extracts all the signal put onto the original recording medium that couldn't be reproduced by earlier playback equipment.  The engineer has to wrestle with transferring an accurate master onto a new medium or trying to reproduce the "heard" experience by coloring the recording with the limitations of the equipment of bygone days.  It's hard to purposefully"lose" fidelity and guidance from the original artist(s) is not always available or sought.  The result is remasters that don't sound like what we heard when the music was first released.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline techy5025

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Re: Reel to reel Luddite guy.
« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2007, 04:41:49 PM »
I'm glad my ears can't detect these subtle  differences, else I might have bought
one of those turntables with a granite base and 20 pound platter.  ::)  :o

Even MP3's...at higher sampling rates...sound fine to me!

Jim
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Offline Killer Canary

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Re: Reel to reel Luddite guy.
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2007, 07:20:50 PM »
The rubber cleaner is called "Rubber Renue" by MG Chemicals.
The tandy seems to be better engineered, using individual motors, doing away with many of the belts and idlers.Too bad the transformer is roasted!
If it's worth doing at all it's worth over-doing.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Reel to reel Luddite guy.
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2007, 06:00:40 AM »
Anyway, this thing got the house special, stripped down and revitalised all rubber rollers,

I've got a Gerrard Zero 100 that now has noticeable rumble due to the hardened rubber on the turntable drive roller.  Wish I could buy a new production one.

Two, that is an OK unit. I have worked on quite a few. Your drive roller may also be a bit out of round or have developed some flats. You can sand it gently to round, it will also give it more tooth and it will drive better. You can also get a new platen mat which will absorb whatever is left.  While you are in there a bit of oil on all the bearings probably would not hurt. 
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline Klark Kent

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Re: Reel to reel Luddite guy.
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2007, 06:37:25 AM »
i knew i was avoiding this thread for a reason-

a physics teacher i will never forget explained analog and digital to me as a ramp (analog) versus stairs (digital).   So the stairs have gotten smaller but they still leave out the parts of the ramp in between the stair corners.  digital recording has not become so close to a ramp that you can not hear the spaces yet.  the best digital cameras are still not up to 35mm film, resolutionwise there are still parts of the ramp missing.

most of the cds extended range is on the high end.  this gives you a lot of tinny sounding early recordings with engineers playing with their new high end.  cd engineering has come a long way, and digital technology has improved.  but the best digital recoding will always be leaving out some information that analog wouldnt leave out.  it wont degrade- but then again i have 40 year old records that i take care of that sound a lot better than a four year old cd that i thought i took care of that skips.  If CDs were durable then that would be an improvement, but they are so fragile.  I use minidiscs for portable digital versions of my records, as well as archiving, because these are a durable digital format, not a disposable medium that prepares us for our inevitably digital future. 

As for surround,  I have a quadraphonic reciever and cartridge and they were doing some pretty amazing stuff with surrond on records.  (night on bald mountain by fire ballet is crazy.)  My quad speaker set up is also fine for movies.  so long as there is sound in front of you and behind you most people feel immersed.  and i would rather have "ghetto-surround" and not lose anything from the music, than digital representations of music and a more realistic surround sound experience.  as for your CD record comparisons, DD, i dont know which ones you were comparing, but two that i know you havent (because the records are so much better than the CDs you wouldnt be able to pretend the CD is better) are Atomic Rooster's greatest hits on vinyl (assortment) and the greatest hits cd that came out in the nineties.  this is the best expample and the one i sue to convince people who come over my house and laugh at me for listening to records still.  The other is almost any motown cd, versus the record original.  but this is because the original master tapes were lost.

What really makes me mad is that before the switch to DVD, analog tapes went down in quality- even professional grade tapes became lighter and less impressive.  I found a copy of watership down on VHS last year at a goodwill.  it was from the early period of VHS.  it weighed about 10 lbs and looked better than a lot of DVDs i have seen.  My point is that in order to make DVDs (disposable video discs) seem much more capable than VHS, they had to degrade the analog technology.  They still use half inch tape at discovery channel and i bet you never noticed. 

anolog will be the only way for true reproduction of sound, and the closest for reproduction of vision, until digital technology gets so advanced that the ones and zeros are so close to each other it sounds like or looks like its analog counterpart.  and then we will have something, but why wait until then to sell the technology to an indiscriminating public. 

sorry,
-KK
-KK

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Offline Rushoid

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Re: Reel to reel Luddite guy.
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2007, 07:06:02 AM »
I feel so used and unclean now.  :'(
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Reel to reel Luddite guy.
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2007, 07:14:15 AM »
KK,

Interesting information. Did a little more poking around and found this, which includes a pretty good visual.

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/question487.htm

Unfortunately, all this is lost on me. I have a tin ear and get by fine with plain, vanilla stereo.  :D
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Offline Klark Kent

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Re: Reel to reel Luddite guy.
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2007, 07:25:13 AM »
dont blame your ears, Bob, in a side by side comparison your ears could tell the difference.  it is your brain that has allowed them to be happy for lack of the knowledge you would gain by such a comparison.  and maybe more of us should be less focused on the quality of the recording.  with all the talk about quality of sound and piicture we have lost all hope of producing quality content.  i for one would rather see films from the seventies on VHS tape than crystal clear reality tv in eyeball stroking High Definition.  Like a technological walmart, digital technology has won us over with the promise of affordability for the masses, despite its inevitable flooding of the market with complete crap.  This can't be the future, its too stupid
-KK
-KK

75 CB550k
76 Moto Guzzi 850T-3FB LAPD- sold
95 KLR650
www.blindpilotmovie.com

download the shop manual:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=17788.0
you'll feel better.

listen to your spark plugs:
http://www.4secondsflat.com/Spark_plug_reading.html