Topic: Why no spring washers here?

[Deltarider]

Most exploded views of the ignition plate assembly - even in Honda documents - are inaccurate: the springwashers are often not depicted. Best pic of the CB500/550 plate that I have found, is the one below. But also this one does not show springwashers for the three 5mm bolts (#12) that hold the complete assembly. I believe originally there weren't any there. My question is: why is that? I'm no expert, but it seems to me that they could eliminate the risk of unwanted play. Not that I ever experienced this. I am just curious to know.
Mind you: the small springwashers that are shown in the pic, are essential.

[jlh3rd]

what is a spring washer? Is that the same thing that we , or I, have always called a lock washer in the U.S.?...or a split washer ?

[bryanj]

A spring washer is like one coil of a spring so when it is flatened the ends butt up and its flat putting the fastener under tension

[jlh3rd]

yep..we call that a lock washer..

[Deltarider]

Now that we have cleared the semantics - springwasher is since long a word in English - now back to the question, please.

[jlh3rd]

It's not semantics that needed clearing up, it's definitions. If they're not originally on the screws, then they won't be on the parts list. And if honda didn't put them on, then no one but honda can answer your question. And, that would make the parts list accurate.

[bryanj]

They show washers on the points and condenser retaining screws but you cant get them off

[Deltarider]

Mine can get of no problem and the springwashers are not separate in the Parts List, because they were part of the bigger part. I thought that was obvious. I was just interested in the mechanical principle, if any, why they would not help eliminating the risk of play where it concerns the 5mm bolts. There's a lot of vibration going on. I mean, fit the breakerpoints without the springwashers and you can almost wait for it...

[PeWe]

CB750 has flat washers, item 18.
https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb750k2-four-general-export_model14368/partslist/E07.html#.Xqwrm7eeyKo

CB500 and 750 can use same plate. I do not know any difference. Cable lenght...or ?

I ordered my TEC plate from JTMarks77 5 years ago. I think I ordered the one for lowest price, maybe CB500. Look the same different part numbers.

My plate has allen head screws since many years. Easier to use.

Spring washers is what we say in Sweden too, but in Swedish
It describe what it does.

Lock washer is for me a washer you bend around one of a nuts sides after tightened.

Fun with lingual differencies and also what many languages have in common.

I often use Google search and see results in photos to see I use correct expression. Technical expressions differ from plain words.

[jlh3rd]

yep, differences. We say "lock" because it locks the nut or screw from turning by digging into the metal. "LK" in the pic.
Your lock washers are called tab washers here. Because it has a tab on it.

On the subject matter, call up honda ...

[PeWe]

Correction, we have lock washer too!
For this very kind of washer.
Sorry.

Spring washer is not cut, wave formed washer and does the same job without leaving metal chips.
I have zipped a little bit more on my stiff GT ....

[Bodi]

"digging into the metal"
So what good is a spring washer if you add a flat washer? Or when it's used with hardened steel?
I call the tab ones bend-over locks, these are found in places where a bolt coming loose would be very bad - old CAT engines were full of them.
Star washers are common here - "external tooth lockwasher" and there are also internal tooth ones. I use them on the mounting screws for rack mounted audio equipment, they pierce the equipment chassis paint or anodizing for a solid common ground - eliminating a source of hum.
When I need a real lockwasher I go with Nord-Lock. Hard to beat.

[Airborne 82nd]

"digging into the metal"
So what good is a spring washer if you add a flat washer? Or when it's used with hardened steel?
I call the tab ones bend-over locks, these are found in places where a bolt coming loose would be very bad - old CAT engines were full of them.
Star washers are common here - "external tooth lockwasher" and there are also internal tooth ones. I use them on the mounting screws for rack mounted audio equipment, they pierce the equipment chassis paint or anodizing for a solid common ground - eliminating a source of hum.
When I need a real lockwasher I go with Nord-Lock. Hard to beat.

Nord-Lock is that the same as a nylon lock nut?

[Airborne 82nd]

Just looked it I never new what those were called they do hold good. My day is complete I learned something.

[754]

I call the ones you bend up locktabs..
 I JUST searched the word by itself on Google , brought up one's that fit, Harley, Yamaha, Kawi, Rolls Royce, Ford, Minis ...to only  mention a few of  the  brands they are used on..

[trigger]

They show washers on the points and condenser retaining screws but you cant get them off

You are correct Bryan, no spring washer, just a flat washer and it has been JIS screw has been superseded so many times that, it doesn't come with the flat washer anymore 

[Deltarider]

This thread has gone astray a bit, I'm afraid. Whether they come of or not, all the fasteners in the ignition plate assembly are supposed to have a flat washer and a spring washer and there's good reason for that. The three 5mm bolts that keep the whole plate in place, are the exception. They only have flat washers. The original question was and still is: why don't they need spring washers?
Reasons I've asked: 1) I am not a mechanic and I am always eager to learn something new. 2) Some in this forum have described a problem they had with adjusting the base plate, due to play. They needed a shim to prevent the plate from moving laterally and I wonder if that play was maybe, maybe caused by mini movements due to vibration. Or did this problem only occur with aftermarket plates? In short, could forsaid play have been prevented by adding spring washers? 

On the subject matter, call up honda ...

Thank you for your valuable suggestion and let me grab the occasion to express my admiration for all your contributions and this one in particular. So I have phoned Tokyo and was asked to hold the line. After some minutes the man came shuffling back to the phone, picked up the receiver, cleared his throat and said he was sorry to inform me that all those that had worked on these bikes, were now dead.
Anyone?

[jlh3rd]

This thread has gone astray a bit, I'm afraid. Whether they come of or not, all the fasteners in the ignition plate assembly are supposed to have a flat washer and a spring washer and there's good reason for that. The three 5mm bolts that keep the whole plate in place, are the exception. They only have flat washers. The original question was and still is: why don't they need spring washers?
Reasons I've asked: 1) I am not a mechanic and I am always eager to learn something new. 2) Some in this forum have described a problem they had with adjusting the base plate, due to play. They needed a shim to prevent the plate from moving laterally and I wonder if that play was maybe, maybe caused by mini movements due to vibration. Or did this problem only occur with aftermarket plates? In short, could forsaid play have been prevented by adding spring washers? 

On the subject matter, call up honda ...

Thank you for your valuable suggestion and let me grab the occasion to express my admiration for all your contributions and this one in particular. So I have phoned Tokyo and was asked to hold the line. After some minutes the man came shuffling back to the phone and said he was sorry to inform me that all those that had worked on these bikes, were now dead.
Anyone?

Now that we have cleared the semantics - springwasher is since long a word in English - now back to the question, please.

your welcome......
     all i did was ask what you meant by spring washer......and you decided to answer as a smart ass....I give what i get.
If I'm trying to understand a question that uses a term I've never heard in 50+ years of buying washers in the U.S., you'll have to forgive me for asking about it.......ok?
      As far as the hypothetical question concerning plates loosening which MAY be caused by bolts loosening ( i can't see three doing that but stranger things have happened)....try a loc...i mean spring washer.......or.....thread locker, purple to start...

the honda comment was curt, but illustrates a point. You asked why a .spring washer wasn't used and only a honda engineer back in the day can actually answer that.

[PeWe]

It can be extra fun sometimes on this forum between all serious technical details!

"...Some in this forum have described a problem they had with adjusting the base plate, due to play....."

Exactly!
I read about it and remembered  that my K6 had a plate moving around sideways when trying to adjust the ignition 1:4 that ended up in an almost never ending adj loop. When plate move sideways point gaps changes and need to adjust ignition again and maybe points too..... It took always so fck long time to adjust it.

I also found the fix for it.
- Not change to Dyna- S or similar which is one solution. I doubt the electronic ignition will change much if plate moves a little sideways.

- Tighten up the bosses on cases by a metal hammer so bosses swell and tighten it up. I just hammered straight on, not in an angle and risk cracking them.

It's described here,  a link at www.hondachopper.com (garage)
https://motorcycleproject.com/text/sohcign.html

And as I have written many times before, points must be set by a dwell meter to get them equal and get a smooth running engine.
I got the good idea to use this method thanks to Mikes thread when he adjusted a stock CB750 K1.

[Medyo Bastos]

It can be extra fun sometimes on this forum between all serious technical details!

"...Some in this forum have described a problem they had with adjusting the base plate, due to play....."

Exactly!
I read about it and remembered  that my K6 had a plate moving around sideways when trying to adjust the ignition 1:4 that ended up in an almost never ending adj loop. When plate move sideways point gaps changes and need to adjust ignition again and maybe points too..... It took always so fck long time to adjust it.

I also found the fix for it.
- Not change to Dyna- S or similar which is one solution. I doubt the electronic ignition will change much if plate moves a little sideways.

- Tighten up the bosses on cases by a metal hammer so bosses swell and tighten it up. I just hammered straight on, not in an angle and risk cracking them.

It's described here,  a link at www.hondachopper.com (garage)
https://motorcycleproject.com/text/sohcign.html

And as I have written many times before, points must be set by a dwell meter to get them equal and get a smooth running engine.
I got the good idea to use this method thanks to Mikes thread when he adjusted a stock CB750 K1.

Thanks for that Pewe!


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[Deltarider]

jlh3rd, I have done what I always do: to use the terminology Honda uses, so everybody can look it up. It's to avoid any possible confusion. The word 'lock washer' is nowhere in my Honda documents, 'spring washer' is, in the hundreds. Now you can call Tokyo and tell them they had it all wrong. Case closed.

[Keith]

I think IF a spring/lock washer was used on the three fasteners, every time you tried to adjust the timing, the plate would move as the washer dug in. Very frustrating.

[jlh3rd]

jlh3rd, I have done what I always do: to use the terminology Honda uses, so everybody can look it up. It's to avoid any possible confusion. The word 'lock washer' is nowhere in my Honda documents, 'spring washer' is, in the hundreds. Now you can call Tokyo and tell them they had it all wrong. Case closed.

I asked if that's what you meant and all you had to say was yes...like a civil human.....ok?
now the case is closed.

[Deltarider]

I think IF a spring/lock washer was used on the three fasteners, every time you tried to adjust the timing, the plate would move as the washer dug in. Very frustrating.

I don't think so. Normally, the spring washer is in between the bolt's head and the flat washer, like we see on the smaller screws of the auxiliary plate (2+3) and the screws that hold the breakerpoints.

[PeWe]

My 3 screws have never came loose. Flat washer only.