Author Topic: checking a condensor  (Read 4205 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

mk0094@hotmail.com

  • Guest
checking a condensor
« on: March 10, 2006, 08:55:44 AM »
is there any way to check a condensor? like a Ohm test or something? and if so, what does a good condensor read?
or can i just send some power to it and see if it will arc to a ground?

well, let me know
mike

Offline Steve F

  • I have "some-timer's disease" because I'm an
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,929
  • "To Ride Is The Reason, The Destination The Excuse
Re: checking a condensor
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2006, 09:37:57 AM »
Try this link, There's some good info about testing with a meter:
http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/captest.htm#cttcm

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: checking a condensor
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2006, 11:19:09 AM »
SteveF's link is very good.  But, I fear it will scare most who don't have a rudimentary familiarity with things electrical.

Here is a nutshell test for the minimalist.  I took a new Honda condenser out of it's package for these tests.  I also took a used one out of the junk box for these readings.  They tested the same and I would feel confident using either one in a bike.

1)  An ohmeter can be used across the condenser (capacitor) to determine if it is shorted or not.  It should read open or infinite, as a shorted capacitor is as effective as a straight piece of wire, albeit more bulky.  ;D

2)  If it isn't shorted, it may still have some life left.   Checking its actual value is more difficult.  And, the link above explains that well.
However, you can sometimes tell if it is holding a charge by placing its terminals across a battery (observe polarity) and then watching for a tiny spark when its lead is placed on the body of the condenser.  This test is mostly useless in daylight.  If you see one in a darkened setting, it tells you it held a charge long enough to cause discharge when shorted out.  An indication of correct function, but by no means the rated value of the cap.  Time between charge and discharge must be very rapid if you hope to see a spark, as it tends to self discharge or leak its charge across its internal plates.  It is far from a perfect capacitor, and you wouldn't want to pay for one of those anyway.

3)  Here's a check using a voltmeter and a 12 V battery.  Affix your meter leads to the capacitor.  Place your condenser on the battery terminals, body to negative, other lead to positive.  The meter should read full battery potential.  However, when you remove the capacitor lead, the meter display slowly diminishes its reading.  My digital meter took about 10-15 seconds to get back to zero.  My analog meter did this in 1 second.  This test outcome will depend on the circuit loading effects of the meter.   But, if your digital shows a slow decay reading, the condenser is still behaving like a capacitor and probably serviceable.

4)  If you have an analog ohmmeter, the way the meter deflects can give you an indication of proper condenser function.  First discharge the cap by bridging the output lead to the body.  The analog meter supplies a small voltage to charge the cap.  An analog meter will read this charging condition as continuity until the charge voltage is attained in the cap.  The meter initially deflects and then returns to infinite if the cap still has some functionality.  Use a high resistance scale for this; 1K, for example.
Some digital ohmmeters can be employed in the same way.  But, these often have very low injected voltage for the resistance test and the sampling rate of the instrument and display may not allow observing a perceptable charging action.  But, my Fluke meter does, and even has a bar graph showing the charge process.   ;D

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Hondell

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 161
  • Just an easy 1000 Hr. resto
Re: checking a condensor
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2006, 01:05:34 PM »
A good condenser should read about .22 uF on a capacitance checker
1972 Cb750 resto- 1972 Cb750 stoplight racer- 1972 Cb750 vintage touring - 1979 CBX- 1982 Kaw GPZ- 1968 Honda SS125A

Offline jakec

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,075
Re: checking a condensor
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2020, 03:07:05 PM »
Quote
3)  Here's a check using a voltmeter and a 12 V battery.  Affix your meter leads to the capacitor.  Place your condenser on the battery terminals, body to negative, other lead to positive.  The meter should read full battery potential.  However, when you remove the capacitor lead, the meter display slowly diminishes its reading.  My digital meter took about 10-15 seconds to get back to zero.  My analog meter did this in 1 second.  This test outcome will depend on the circuit loading effects of the meter.   But, if your digital shows a slow decay reading, the condenser is still behaving like a capacitor and probably serviceable.

Just to clarify, what is the capacitor? is that part of the condenser? What parts of the part am I fixing the volt meter leads to?
1970 CB750 K0
1977 CB750 Chop
1997 XR650L

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,843
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: checking a condensor
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2020, 06:26:57 PM »
Quote
3)  Here's a check using a voltmeter and a 12 V battery.  Affix your meter leads to the capacitor.  Place your condenser on the battery terminals, body to negative, other lead to positive.  The meter should read full battery potential.  However, when you remove the capacitor lead, the meter display slowly diminishes its reading.  My digital meter took about 10-15 seconds to get back to zero.  My analog meter did this in 1 second.  This test outcome will depend on the circuit loading effects of the meter.   But, if your digital shows a slow decay reading, the condenser is still behaving like a capacitor and probably serviceable.

Just to clarify, what is the capacitor? is that part of the condenser? What parts of the part am I fixing the volt meter leads to?

For our purposes, "condensor" and "capacitor" are synonymous terms. The physical construction is different between these two items, but they act the same electrically.
Both of these store an electrical charge. The condensor is made to expressly let it 'leak' out internally over a specific amount of time, where a capacitor can hold it much longer, often for weeks (like in old TV set flyback transformer systems: I STILL have scars from those days...). Between the two, condensors discharge faster, making them ideal for use with fast-changing voltages like a coil kickback.

On your condensor is a wire lead: this is the (+) wire, for our references here. The case itself is the (-) terminal, which is why it is grounded to the points plate (and engine) directly. So, when TT talks about touching the wires together, it just means to touch the wire's little connector to the metal body of the condensor.

TT knows this stuff and has led many, many of our members out of the woods over it. :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline jakec

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,075
Re: checking a condensor
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2020, 08:04:48 PM »
Thank you very much for the clarification. So you put the wire from the condesner on the (+) terminal of the battery, and the body of the condenser on the (-) of the battery. Do you put both leads of the volt meter on the body the condenser? Still confused about that part.
1970 CB750 K0
1977 CB750 Chop
1997 XR650L

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,843
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: checking a condensor
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2020, 05:50:26 PM »
Thank you very much for the clarification. So you put the wire from the condesner on the (+) terminal of the battery, and the body of the condenser on the (-) of the battery. Do you put both leads of the volt meter on the body the condenser? Still confused about that part.
One voltmeter lead goes to the wire, the other to the can. When you touch the battery with the condensor leads it will jump up to the battery voltage. Then when you un-touch the condensor from the battery, keep the meter's leads attached to the condensor. Then you can watch the magic part, it will slide down to zero volts. Slow being relative to your meter's resistance: some have more than others and the volts will drop slower with those. "Better" meters have more resistance.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,571
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: checking a condensor
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2020, 11:11:17 AM »
If using stock points only, no Hondaman ignition.
Remove ignition cover and see the flashing points when engine is running. Look better in the dark.
I had transparent cover in the 80's revealing the bad condensers when points flashed inside. Good condenser not arcing points.

TT has explained ignition system and charging very deep and basic to many here leading them out of the problems or into the various root causes.

I think about that  rather often when I riding my bikes since last year, now equipped with voltmeter I can watch while riding.

Yes, battery must be good and fully charged to measure correct voltage and see if regulator need to be adjusted/ serviced according to CB750 shop manual chapter 8 ;)
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline jakec

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,075
Re: checking a condensor
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2020, 11:37:33 AM »
The reason I'm doing this exercise is because before I stripped my bike down it wouldn't run on all cylinders. (after regular daily riding). The problem was never properly diagnosed but I wanted to check condensers and rebuild points while I am rebuilding the rest of the bike.
1970 CB750 K0
1977 CB750 Chop
1997 XR650L

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,843
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: checking a condensor
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2020, 05:44:11 PM »
The reason I'm doing this exercise is because before I stripped my bike down it wouldn't run on all cylinders. (after regular daily riding). The problem was never properly diagnosed but I wanted to check condensers and rebuild points while I am rebuilding the rest of the bike.

In the last 4 years I have gone thru 4 sets of condensors myself. Only the last ones I got are TEC type, the others had either no markings or the nasty 3-leak-clover Daiichi mark. The Daiichi condensors, from brand new, got me 3 miles from the house while running with my Transistor Ignition (which only sources 8 volts to the points and condensors) before they shorted. It was clear that as soon as they were heated up, they shorted. After they cooled off, they worked again until I ran the engine 15 minutes. It was repeatable.

They are just Chinese boats...junk. For all I know, they probably house Kung Flu, too.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline DarkLinkX5

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 26
Re: checking a condensor
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2020, 09:22:26 PM »
I recently put Mallory condensers on my CB550k3 the difference is very noticeable. I had to drill out the spot welds on the OEM condensers to get the bracket and solder it to the new ones with plumbing solder. the bracket it came with was junk i could not get the short screw through it and tightened down.
i had cold start issues it took 10-20 minutes to start the bike but now it starts instantly. its friggin sweet.
i believe i seen the recommendation for the Mallory condensers somewhere in these forums.  Mallory 400 Condenser (28 MFD 600V)

make sure you arent shorting out your ignition points. when i installed my condensers a whole season passed between when i removed the old ones and put the new ones in that i forgot where exactly the wire contact went....  :-[   oh well problem solved no harm no foul.
1977 Honda CB550k

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,571
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: checking a condensor
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2020, 01:00:50 AM »
Thank you for that cost! :D
Just ordered 2 Mallory 400 Condensers just for sure.

It is a std part at US car customs shops.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Alaxy Galaxy

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 328
Re: checking a condensor
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2020, 02:03:28 PM »
the nasty 3-leak-clover Daiichi mark.

Freudian slip?  ;D ;D ;D

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,571
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: checking a condensor
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2020, 07:41:34 AM »
Mallory condensers can be a good alternative. I'll butcher old rusty Daiichi condensers from their brackets to attach the Mallory on.
Must be possible to use thin steel wire and wind them hard together. It must have good electrical contact to ground (plate).

Lets see if I'll notice a difference. My TEC stuff show no bad behavior today.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 07:48:16 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline jakec

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,075
Re: checking a condensor
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2020, 12:57:48 PM »
I just tried this test, and I must have done something wrong. I connected a lead from the wire of one condenser (still attached to points plate) to the battery (+) terminal, and another lead from the condenser body to the (-) battery terminal. It arced when I connected it, and both wires (+) & (-) leads started melting their insulation instantly. So I yanked it all apart and didn’t even have a chance to grab the volt reader.
1970 CB750 K0
1977 CB750 Chop
1997 XR650L

Online bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,015
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: checking a condensor
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2020, 01:41:21 PM »
You did it wrong, the condenser lead must be DISCONNECTED from the points plate, what you did, if the points were closed, was put a direct short acctoss the battery
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline jakec

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,075
Re: checking a condensor
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2020, 02:26:27 PM »
Haha.. nice. Yep that’s what I did. So I should try it again with the same leads hooked up but with the condenser off the plate. Is the shirt across the battery bad? I have accidentally done that with a screwdriver before.
1970 CB750 K0
1977 CB750 Chop
1997 XR650L

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,571
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: checking a condensor
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2020, 12:30:10 AM »
I have a package of NOS very old condensers to check. Compare with good working one.
Spare batteries that can not crank the starter but OK for less current demanding jobs.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,571
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: checking a condensor
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2020, 04:26:56 AM »
About Mallory 400 condensers mentioned earlier.

I tested today clamping them on  old condensers brackets. Test on an old rotten base plate and empty CB750 case.

Possible using the Mallory clamp with a more spaceous ign cover as the cover on my K6 that will get these condensers later on. The ears for screw are just 1-2mm too much hitting the stock cover shape.

For stock cover, strap them with a slimmer metal strap or wire.
The guide on base plate is aligned with hole in bracket on my photo

Maybe enough to tape around the condenser and bracket.
I have SCOTCH 3M 69-1”X36YD Electrical Glass Cloth Tape that is OK with 180*C.
It must have good electrical conductivity, bracket- condenser. A few turns of wire around the metal might ensure good con.tact
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967