Author Topic: Does anyone else see that the Corona Virus situation has been manipulated now?  (Read 2919 times)

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Offline Ichiban 4

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Hi Folks..

Don't want to get into a big political discussion here..but has seemed to me that here in the U.S. the Corona Virus thing has become increasingly manipulated..especially since some are tying to open things-up from lock-down [which seems reasonable and necessary to me..if reasonable precautions are taken]..and others keep saying that the risks are too high..that a 'second wave' may happen [some are saying it's happening already]. If statistics are broken down..the only thing significantly going up..are the number of people being tested..and a large number of people tested are being found to be positive.  That would be what one would expect..if more people are getting tested..wouldn't it?  And..of the total number of people testing positive [over 80% by some statistics] most will never show further signs of sickness..and most will develop some sort of antibodies/immunity anyway.

Again..not saying that reasonable precautions shouldn't be followed.  But seems to me that efforts should be focused mainly on the most vulnerable in population..not continue to restrict entire populations.

It's also seemed to me..that his current difference of opinion/policy may well last until we're through the next general election here in the U.S. I don't like the idea of playing with people's fears and emotions that way.  Anyone have similar views here?

Thanks  Ichi
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 04:18:51 PM by Ichiban 4 »
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Offline Gordon

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Again..not saying that reasonable precautions shouldn't be followed.  But seems to me that efforts should be focused mainly on the most vulnerable in population..not continue to restrict entire populations.

I'm fully on-board with getting things going again, but only with reasonable precautions.  Wearing masks and distancing are two of the easiest and least intrusive things we can do to keep this at bay, but even just those two, simple things seem to be too much to ask for many people. 

If we pretend like this is over and go back to life as usual before it's actually over, we're just hurting ourselves worse, because we'll have to completely shut down again, and for probably longer.  But if we take a few precautions and keep them up for just one year, we can maintain a semblance of normalcy until we have a vaccine, and, more importantly, save hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of lives in the process. 

Wear a mask when you go to the store.  Don't take your whole family when you go to the store.  Stay home when you can.  This isn't over, and it won't be for quite a while.  Pretending like it's over when it isn't will only make it worse.   

Offline Don R

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 Infection rates will tell the truth. The virus doesn't care if you believe in it or not. My daughter had most of the symptoms. Even then it was difficult to get a test, they insisted 5 of 7 symptoms weren't enough to warrant a test. She finally got tested after she was feeling better and it was negative. Everything else was negative too. All that tells me is her doctor didn't want to over diagnose the virus.
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Offline HondaMan

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Three people at work got it (I was one), and we survived it: the boss had it first, and worst (and his wife is a nurse!) for 5 weeks. When he came back to work (still coughing) the guy who sits next to me got it: I got it from him 9 days later, typical of the cycle (according to the exspurts). Then everyone started naming it. No one else around any of us got the symptoms after that, and we never shut down at work because we build medical machinery and were considered "essential". Others around here got it, according to the symptoms (or tests), but it is gone now.

The symptoms resemble the flu, except it ends with pneumonia and a cough that won't stop. In people not real susceptible (most of us), it mimics a cold with a cough after that lasts for a month (me) and keeps you awake at night. My wife, who is immuno-compromised, did NOT get it from me (but then, she gets flu shots twice every year, too).

The mask is for the sick among us, IMHO, not everyone else. This whole situation has fallen prey far beyond necessity, and if you'll notice, only in the provinces of certain governors and mayors. And no, there is not a 'second wave' brewing. The first 'wave' wasn't much worse than the H1N1 flu. Now, the vast majority of people being tested are found with antibodies: does that give a clue?

I don't believe in riots, fights, or damnpanics. This was the latter.  >:(

See here for some sense: https://flattenthefear.com/
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 07:35:02 PM by HondaMan »
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Online scottly

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The first wave isn't over, it's building at a record pace, at least here in AZ. 41 deaths today..
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Offline carnivorous chicken

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A few misconceptions...

The USA is currently in its first wave of C19. If you look at comparative charts of countries' infection rates, the US hasn't dipped all that much, more like plateaued. And in some places such as Arizona, Texas, Florida and Georgia, infection rates are going up rapidly, in fact setting daily records. Pence recently wrote an editorial stating the USA is not entering a second wave; Anthony Fauci agreed, but for a different reason -- the USA is still in its first wave. The red states where fewer precautions were taken and where leadership didn't want to close wanted to open too quickly. One precaution that many people are avoiding is wearing a mask. The issue has been politicized, and for the life of me I don't get it. It's common sense and common courtesy. But Trump himself has said that people are wearing masks to undermine him.

If the USA had taken stricter measures from the start, the wave would have crested and fallen, the number of infected people would have decreased drastically to a more manageable number (Arizona, by the way, is warning of shortages of hospital beds), and the US could start thinking about initial steps to reopen. As it stands, being at the crest of the first wave, it simply doesn't make sense. If only there had been smart leadership that enforced precautions. By the way, some of the people who Trump demonizes, such as WA's gov. Jay Inslee, did the right thing and enforced strict closures -- no doubt saving many lives. It is now the rural areas of Washington where numbers of infected are going up -- the places that refused to take strong measures.

Speaking of saving lives, the death toll has reached 121,000, more Americans than who died in WWI (many due to flu of course), and now double Viet Nam. Remember when the President said it would be tens of thousands? The US is on a course to lose 200,000 people by September.

The notion that wider testing means that increased cases are simply a result of the testing has been proven false. The opposite -- that if you didn't test, there would simply be fewer cases -- is akin to saying if you never took that pregnancy test, you wouldn't be pregnant. Stating that "the only thing significantly going up is the number of people being tested" is false. Relatedly, the consensus remains that the number of C19 deaths is under reported. Rumors and conspiracies that deaths are overreported have been debunked.

And then there is the whole common sense thing, returning to a point I made above. Raging parties in Lake of the Ozarks? Huge gatherings of people on beaches? An indoor political rally where masks are not required, where many attendees probably believe C19 is a hoax, and yet where people have to sign a waiver that they won't sue if they contract C19? Orwell couldn't have written something like that.

What pisses me off is that, as I stated, if the US had taken stricter precautions in a timely manner, reopening phases could have started. I've cancelled three trips since early March, two to the USA and one to Cuba, and I need to get to Arizona before too long. My wife is pregnant -- there is no way I would go to Arizona now, nor take a flight. I was hoping to go by July, now its August, but really -- there is very little likelihodd it will happen.

Everybody is frustrated and sick of this. Nobody wants to distance or wear a mask or stay home. But it's the right thing to do -- and people in the USA should have been more serious about it months ago.

** I should add -- I'm not an epidemiologist, and I don't think others on here are. But I read a lot of what they have to say, which is where I get my information. I'd recommend that for others as well -- the info is readily available.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 07:48:10 PM by carnivorous chicken »

Offline AlekStooge

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Rumors and conspiracies that deaths are overreported have been debunked.

Not following any conspiracy here.  My mother's co-worker's daughter died in a car accident. She tested positive for Covid-19 several weeks prior. Her death was counted as a Coronavirus death even though that's not what was the cause of death. I heard this through word of mouth, not TV or internet.

I don't know about hospitals receiving more money for patients with Medicade, if the death is counted as a Covid-19 when the cause could've been something different. Things could get complicated if the patient has several other issues going on and test positive for Covid. Either way this won't skew the number by a large amount.

Offline carnivorous chicken

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There are several ways to count C19 when someone dies. Lab confirmed deaths are those who have been tested and died from C19. "Other deaths" are those who have been tested positive for C19 but died from other causes -- these are removed from the database of victims. "Related deaths" are those who could have died with a C19 positive test but are listed as other causes, such as Alzheimer's or a stroke. In these cases, people who may have died from these afflictions had it hastened by C19 or may have died by C19 but had another affliction. Then there are "probable deaths." These are people who died from C19 symptoms but who were unable to be tested. The CDC states that "probable deaths" are a standard way of counting when the health system cannot test.

In Washington state, there are another 3000 some deaths since February with causes that may have been C19 but which were listed as others, for example pneumonia. These are not counted at all as C19 deaths.

With regard to deaths by other causes, in NYC for example, death by heart disease is three times the average rate for the time period. Death by other causes in NYC and elsewhere are also much higher than normal averages. None of these are being counted as C19.

While you've got one anecdote about one case being reported falsely, there are piles of data that point otherwise. Plus you might want to check whether C19 was listed as the actual cause of death or whether it was simply listed as a means to track who had C19 when they died -- see "other deaths" or "related deaths" above.

Again, paying attention to organizations such as the CDC that report and publish detailed reports is a good way to follow what's happening.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 07:35:42 AM by carnivorous chicken »

Offline Gordon

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The mask is for the sick among us, IMHO, not everyone else.

While I very much respect you and your expertise on vintage motorcycles, I'm going to stick with what the medical experts have to say on this one. 

I'm not living in fear, but I am living in exposure.  I work at a grocery store, so I don't have the luxury of choosing who I'm exposed to.  I'm surrounded by the general public every day.  I'm not really worried about myself, but I am worried about what I may be bringing home to my family.  Is it likely to kill me or my wife and kids?  No.  Is it possible that it could leave one or more of us with lifelong complications?  Yes.  Is it possible it could kill my elderly parents who both have medical conditions that make them more susceptible to this disease?  Yes. 

With the exception of a very few people with respiratory issues, wearing a mask does no harm.  It's a gesture of kindness toward your fellow humans.  Most of us aren't infected, but some of us are and don't even know it and may never even suffer any symptoms and will go out and spread it to people who it could affect greatly. 

My store requires employees to wear masks at work, and we spend an immense amount of our time and labor cleaning and sanitizing everything every single day (every 4 hours to be specific) to make our place as risk-free as possible for our customers.  We don't require our customers to wear a mask, but we do ask every single person who enters our store to wear one, and we even offer a free disposable mask to all of them.  In spite of this there are still people who refuse to wear one. 

If I invited you to my home and asked you to take off your shoes because it's muddy outside and I just cleaned the carpets would you refuse?  Of course not, because you're a decent person and a friend. 

If you come into my store without a mask, after having been asked to wear one and even offered one, you're an uncaring #$%* who is putting your opinions and temporary comfort ahead of the well-being of my family.  If you walk up to me without a mask while I'm wearing one to protect you and your family and start talking to me and want my help, I'm going to help you because I'm a decent human and I want to help, but I immediately think less of you.   

Offline Don R

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 Well stated Gordon. I was in the local O'Reilly auto parts store and was the only one with a mask on. That's OK but everyone stared at me like I was on fire. I considered coughing a lot to see how they reacted to that.
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Offline madmtnmotors

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I'm with Gordon on this as well.
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Offline BenelliSEI

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+1 Gordon. This not a political issue, it should be common sense. In Canada, I suspect we have been a bit more disciplined, and less divided, on our approach. Our population is 1/10th of the USA. If you compare total death rates in the two countries, the ratio is much different. Check it out.

Offline carnivorous chicken

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If anyone cares, here is a WHO site on comparative rates of infection by country:

https://covid19.who.int/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIisi9-LeR6gIVDdbACh3YjAPYEAAYASAAEgKbxvD_BwE

This is the source for the report that the USA is not yet out of the first wave -- similar to Russia and Brazil, for example. Interesting to look at Italy, hit early and hit very hard, or other EU countries such as Germany, the UK, and Spain -- where the rate of infection has declined drastically. Or Turkey. These countries took strong measures (although the UK was a little slow to get on the ball, and its curve shows that). The others did not.

Offline Ichiban 4

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Hello Folks..
Here's a good article that looks on some of the positive aspects about dealing with Covid.  Don't know why more isn't being said about vaccine development..but along with the gradual development of some sort of "herd immunity" developing (which is happening according to antibody testing)..this will probably be game changer in terms of Covid19.. Maybe by early 2021?
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2020/06/06/commentary/world-commentary/covid-19-vaccines-merrier/
Cheers  Ichi
 
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Offline dave500

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covid 19 wont hurt me,i can eat broken glass and rusty nails,i can drink warm flat beer and three day old chicken sandwhiches and nothing happens.

Offline 72 yellow

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I'm with Gordon also.  Our daughter works in a hospital in oncology.  She also has lupus, so she worked from home home for a few works.  Not wearing a mask could be a death sentence for her. 

Offline tool14

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=1 with gordon wearing a mask is the correct thing to due,at work we have temp. checks and must wear mask all day.

Offline Medyo Bastos

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Just be sure those thermometers have fresh batteries! One place tried telling me i had a 106 temperature, ha!


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Offline carnivorous chicken

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Continuing the discussion of overcounting versus undercounting, this article points to the lasting and secondary effects of C19. https://www.seattlepi.com/science/article/What-they-don-t-tell-you-about-surviving-15347792.php?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=referral

“When they say ’recovered,’ they don’t tell you that that means you may need a lung transplant,” (ICU nurse) Antoinette wrote in a Twitter post. “Or that you may come back after discharge with a massive heart attack or stroke, because COVID makes your blood thick as hell. Or that you may have to be on oxygen for the rest of your life.”

Some states in the US are beginning to roll back reopening as cases are spiking. Others are reopening bars and churches -- and the number of cases continues to increase. No other developed country in the world has done so poorly, with rates of infection increasing 22 percent in the last 14 days.

The USA needs to get its act together.

Offline ekpent

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 Maybe there should be a moratorium on large gatherings like have been seeing on the news every night from all around the country. Its kind of a drag to be trying to do the right thing while a certain segment of the population gets a complete pass for not following the rules and CDC suggestions and possibly eventually bringing harm to others by perpetuating the spread.

Offline carnivorous chicken

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Maybe there should be a moratorium on large gatherings like have been seeing on the news every night from all around the country. Its kind of a drag to be trying to do the right thing while a certain segment of the population gets a complete pass for not following the rules and CDC suggestions and possibly eventually bringing harm to others by perpetuating the spread.

Agreed. Although it should have been done in March. Better late than never, I guess.

Offline Ichiban 4

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Hi All..

Just sending the following article on building/maintaining resistance to Covid here..

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/ondemand/video/2050094/

Probably good overall advice..

Cheers..Ichi
« Last Edit: June 24, 2020, 10:32:12 PM by Ichiban 4 »
Al Summers

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Online scottly

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The link doesn't work, Al. An earlier discussion about the virus had several mentions of the benefits of high doses of vitamin C to increase immunity; my 92 year old mom swears by it. ;D
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline Ichiban 4

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The link doesn't work, Al. An earlier discussion about the virus had several mentions of the benefits of high doses of vitamin C to increase immunity; my 92 year old mom swears by it. ;D
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Hi Scott..
Got the URL wrong before..try again..worked for me then..
Cheers..Al/Ichi
Al Summers

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Online scottly

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I'm lactose intolerant, but I could sure use more exercise. ;D ;D ;D
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....