Author Topic: The $6 Charging System Output Improvement Mod  (Read 18933 times)

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Offline American Locomotive

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The $6 Charging System Output Improvement Mod
« on: July 02, 2020, 03:12:03 pm »
So as we all know, the charging system on these bikes is really marginal, especially at low RPM. I've seen a lot of talk about swapping in CB750A stators, going to permanent magnet alternators and all sorts of other stuff. Basically taking the brute-force approach to getting more power. But I personally thought there might be room for improvements in the charging system's efficiency, rather than just throwing more alternator at the issue.

The first thing that came to mind is the rectifier. Our bikes use a 3-phase bridge-rectifier to convert the alternator's electricity into DC. It does this by using 3 sets of diodes arranged like this:


The problem with this, is that standard silicon diodes have a weird characteristic voltage drop across them. For a standard diode, this voltage drop is 0.6-0.7 volts. So that means that while the amount of current through the diode can vary a lot, it's still going to have a 0.7v drop across it almost all the time. This becomes even more of an issue with a bridge-rectifier setup. For current to flow through a bridge rectifier, it most flow through two diodes, and the voltage drop of each diode stacks with each other. So a rectifier is going to drop 1.4v no matter what. That means before the alternators on our bikes can even start supplying power, they need to be generating 1.4v MORE than the battery voltage at minimum.

Since the diodes are shedding voltage, this means there is also a power loss through them that is directly proportional to the current flowing. Our bikes are quoted as having a 225w charging system, which at 14v means 16A of current. At 16A, a standard silicon rectifier is burning away over 22W of power as heat. That's a full 10% of the alternator's output!

There is a solution however (well two solutions, but more on that later): The Schottky Diode. This is a special type of diode with an extremely low voltage drop. Typically 1/3 - 1/2 that of a typical silicon diode. This means in low-voltage situations, you get a lot more of the power where you need it, and less wasted as heat: And as luck would have it, someone makes a fully integrated 3-phase Schottky Bridge Rectifier: The IXYS FUS-0045B - https://ixapps.ixys.com/DataSheet/14b6ae00-24ef-4836-9531-dd26e2e1ed59.pdf . The best part, is that this little chip only costs $6. So for $6, I was willing to take a gamble and ordered one.

Step 1 was to solder and heatshrink some wires to it. 3 wires for the incoming AC, two for the outgoing + and - leads:


Next, I rummaged through my junk bin and found a heatsink to attach the rectifier to (even though it wastes less power, it still require a heatsink to stay cool), and crimped some terminals onto the wires.


Finally, I installed the whole assembly in the bike. Now this is just a "prototype", so if the rectifier proves itself, the little clip attaching it to the heatsink will be replaced with a proper screw-retained bracket, and the spade terminals will be replaced by a proper plug.


So then I put an ammeter inline with the connection between the main harness and the battery so I could see exactly what was going on. The results speak for themselves:
Before:
1200 RPM: Battery discharging
2000 RPM: 3.2A battery charge current

After:
1200 RPM: 0.01A Battery charge current (this means the charging system is matching the bike's electrical demands exactly)
2000 RPM: 4.8 A battery charge current.

So as we can see, this $6 part is giving me an additional 1.6A of charging current at 2000 RPM. That's 20+ watts of additional power! I'm going to put some miles on this rectifier to make sure it holds up, but this is looking like a huge improvement in low RPM charging system performance for just $6 and about 1 hour worth of time to put everything together.

This place has the rectifiers in stock for about $5.50: https://www.futureelectronics.com/p/2009745?utm_source=eciaauthorized&utm_medium=CPCBuy&utm_campaign=ECIA_Ext_Refferals

I'm also looking into making another rectifier using technology called an "ideal diode bridge". This converts 3-phase AC to DC with almost 0 losses, but it requires about $35 in components and for me to make a circuit board. But with how much of an improvement just the schottky rectifier made, I think it may be worth investigating.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 03:17:04 pm by American Locomotive »

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: The $6 Charging System Output Improvement Mod
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2020, 03:40:24 pm »
Keep talking! Fascinating stuff!

Offline dusterdude

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Re: The $6 Charging System Output Improvement Mod
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2020, 03:41:47 pm »
Interesting

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Offline Medyo Bastos

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Re: The $6 Charging System Output Improvement Mod
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2020, 05:35:12 pm »
add a VR730 and youve got a complete setup


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Offline scottly

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Re: The $6 Charging System Output Improvement Mod
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2020, 06:53:31 pm »
That .6-.7 volt drop across a conducting, or forward-biased diode is the Vf value on the data sheet for your device, which is .55 typical and a max of .65 volt. This voltage is what is displayed on a meter set to the diode test function.
Your test was not valid, as it did not include the battery voltage; a fully charged battery would draw less current than a discharged battery, regardless of available power.
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Offline grcamna2

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Re: The $6 Charging System Output Improvement Mod
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2020, 06:55:59 pm »
subscribed  :)
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Offline American Locomotive

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Re: The $6 Charging System Output Improvement Mod
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2020, 07:04:35 pm »
I put about 50 miles on the bike today, and the rectifier performed flawlessly. Battery voltage definitely stays higher at idle and low RPM. The heatsink was only warm to the touch, so it seems to be working quite well. My bike is also running electronic ignition and currently has a wideband O2 sensor on it, so my electrical demands are higher than a stock 750.

That .6-.7 volt drop across a conducting, or forward-biased diode is the Vf value on the data sheet for your device, which is .55 typical and a max of .65 volt. This voltage is what is displayed on a meter set to the diode test function.
Your test was not valid, as it did not include the battery voltage; a fully charged battery would draw less current than a discharged battery, regardless of available power.
I did extensive testing of the device. With 10a of current passing through the bridge (between pins 1 and 2, which measures through all of the diodes), I meaured a Vf of 0.60. I then tested between pins 1 and 3, which put 10a across a single diode and had a vF of 0.38. I measured the original rectifier in the bike, and I measured over double the Vf drop.

When doing the charging current tests, I performed them back to back immediately. I swapped back and forth between the stock regulator and the schottky diode regulator for A/B testing. The moment I switched back the stock regulator, my charging current at 2000 RPM immediately dropped back down to 3.2A.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 07:14:03 pm by American Locomotive »

Offline scottly

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Re: The $6 Charging System Output Improvement Mod
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2020, 07:13:33 pm »
How did you put a 10 amp current through the rectifier?
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Offline American Locomotive

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Re: The $6 Charging System Output Improvement Mod
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2020, 07:14:30 pm »
How did you put a 10 amp current through the rectifier?
A constant current bench power supply.

Offline ekpent

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Re: The $6 Charging System Output Improvement Mod
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2020, 07:17:44 pm »
 Way above my pay grade.Like trying to read a foreign language to me.  ;D  I think I have been lucky as I have never had a CB750 that ever had a charging problem and I am not a constant high revver out on the road.
  Good luck on your project,looks intersting.

Offline scottly

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Re: The $6 Charging System Output Improvement Mod
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2020, 07:19:19 pm »
Interesting. Have you done the same bench test of the stock rectifier? What readings to you get with a meter diode test in each case?
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Offline scottly

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Re: The $6 Charging System Output Improvement Mod
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2020, 07:20:59 pm »
  I have never had a CB750 that ever had a charging problem
Neither have I. ;D
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Offline American Locomotive

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Re: The $6 Charging System Output Improvement Mod
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2020, 07:28:16 pm »
Way above my pay grade.Like trying to read a foreign language to me.  ;D  I think I have been lucky as I have never had a CB750 that ever had a charging problem and I am not a constant high revver out on the road.
  Good luck on your project,looks intersting.
I've never really had a "problem" either. But it's not a secret at idle and low RPM these bikes don't really charge the battery. Especially if you have a few extra widgets like electronic ignition, phone charger, or in my case - a wideband. Plus, the extra 20 or so watts I measured at low RPM can be extremely useful for people wanting to run things like heated handgrips.
Interesting. Have you done the same bench test of the stock rectifier? What readings to you get with a meter diode test in each case?
Edit: I just tested the stock rectifier under load.

Diode Test (no load):
Stock Across 1 Diode: 0.512v
Stock Across Bridge: 0.991v
Schottky Across 1 Diode: 0.095v
Schottky Across Bridge: 0.178v

Load Test:
Stock Rectifier @ 10A Across Bridge: 1.992v Drop Across Rectifier
Schottky Rectifier @ 10A Across Bridge: 0.60v Drop Across Rectifier

So the stock rectifier is even worse than I thought. The stock rectifier is throwing away almost 32 watts of power at full charging current. In comparison, the Schottky rectifier will be around 9.6 watts at the same current.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 07:49:01 pm by American Locomotive »

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: The $6 Charging System Output Improvement Mod
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2020, 07:36:09 pm »
  I have never had a CB750 that ever had a charging problem
Neither have I. ;D
nor have i...not even with 550s
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Offline scottly

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Re: The $6 Charging System Output Improvement Mod
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2020, 07:41:29 pm »

The Schottky numbers needed about 0.5a of load for them to read something reasonable, as the DMM's diode test function does not pass enough current.
That seems odd? What sort of readings do you get at 5 amps, which is closer to actual draw than 10 amps?
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Offline American Locomotive

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Re: The $6 Charging System Output Improvement Mod
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2020, 07:43:32 pm »
That seems odd? What sort of readings do you get at 5 amps, which is closer to actual draw than 10 amps?
It's not that odd, as you're measuring across 6 diodes in series-parallel with a very low test current. You need a very slight load on a diode to get an accurate measurement. A diode's quoted Vf is usually close to the diode's rated current.

Recheck the post, I updated it as I just did a load test on the stock rectifier.
"Load Test:
Stock Rectifier @ 10A Across Bridge: 1.992v Drop Across Rectifier
Schottky Rectifier @ 10A Across Bridge: 0.60v Drop Across Rectifier"
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 07:49:08 pm by American Locomotive »

Offline scottly

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Re: The $6 Charging System Output Improvement Mod
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2020, 07:49:04 pm »
The quoted Vf is at 15 amps. Please check at 5 amps. :)
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Offline American Locomotive

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Re: The $6 Charging System Output Improvement Mod
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2020, 07:53:09 pm »
The quoted Vf is at 15 amps. Please check at 5 amps. :)
I'll check at 5A tomorrow since the Schottky Rectifier is still on the bike.

FWIW: Key On, Engine Kill On, Engine Not Running: I measured about 9.2A of current draw from the battery. So 10a seems like a reasonable test current to me.

Edit: Since there seems to be so much interest, I'll try and do as much testing as I can tomorrow. I have a 40w 12v load I can put on the battery.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 07:55:07 pm by American Locomotive »

Offline scottly

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Re: The $6 Charging System Output Improvement Mod
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2020, 08:01:01 pm »
What is drawing so much current? What ignition do you have? How much does the O2 heater draw?
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Offline Medyo Bastos

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Re: The $6 Charging System Output Improvement Mod
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2020, 08:01:19 pm »
Hmmm, the battery in your meter might be forward biasing your circuit


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Offline MauiK3

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Re: The $6 Charging System Output Improvement Mod
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2020, 08:06:50 pm »
Wow, this is very interesting.
I’m only about 50% hanging with the explanation but I think I get it.
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Offline American Locomotive

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Re: The $6 Charging System Output Improvement Mod
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2020, 08:21:06 pm »
What is drawing so much current? What ignition do you have? How much does the O2 heater draw?
It's a Pamco ignition and the O2 sensor was disconnected during my earlier tests.

But if you break it down by theoretical currents for each piece (obviously voltage drop will make these numbers lower):

Headlight: 4.1A (50w, 12v)
Taillight: 0.7A (8.3w low filament, 12v)
Running Light: 1.4 (0.7A each) (8.3w low filament, 12v)
Gauge Lights: 1A (0.25A each) (3w, 12v)
Alternator Field: ~1.6A (although this has a big power resistor to limit current)
Coil: 2.4A (assuming 1 coil on at a time, and yes I noticed a roughly 2A jump from 7a to 9a when I turned the kill switch on)
Total: 11.2A theoretical.

The coil current will obviously drop way down when running (since it's an intermittent draw), and the alternator field current will drop once the battery gets up to regulated voltage, but that still leaves you with 7.2A worth of lights. I don't see how a stock CB750 could only draw 5A.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 08:27:53 pm by American Locomotive »

Offline scottly

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Re: The $6 Charging System Output Improvement Mod
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2020, 08:38:10 pm »


Alternator Field: ~1.6A (although this has a big power resistor to limit current)
Coil: 2.4A (assuming 1 coil on at a time, and yes I noticed a roughly 2A jump from 7a to 9a when I turned the kill switch on)
Total: 11.2A theoretical.

The coil current will obviously drop way down when running (since it's an intermittent draw), and the alternator field current will drop once the battery gets up to regulated voltage, but that still leaves you with 7.2A worth of lights. I don't see how a stock CB750 could only draw 5
That big resistor on the back of the stock regulator does Not limit the field coil current; it is in series with the regulator electromagnet coil, and draws power whenever the key is on. I don't recall how much power it wastes, but it gets hot. :o
Not all stock 750's have the headlight and taillight on all the time.  ;) 
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Offline American Locomotive

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Re: The $6 Charging System Output Improvement Mod
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2020, 08:55:45 am »
Okay, so I did more A/B testing today with an additional 40 watt load attached to the battery. I am very satisfied with the results and decided to make this a permanent addition to the bike. At low RPM (1200-2500 RPM) or so, the Schottky rectifier results in about 1-2A more charging current. At high RPM (5000+), the difference between the two rectifiers gets smaller, but still a slight advantage to the Schottky rectifier.

To answer some questions for people who were confused:

- What does this mod do?
- This mod replaces the factory silicon-diode rectifier with a schottky-diode rectifier. Schottky diodes have a much smaller voltage drop than silicon diodes. This results in 10-20 watts less power being wasted by the rectifier, and allows the alternator to start charging the battery at a lower RPM. It is essentially an extra 10-20 watts of alternator power for $6, with the difference being more substantial at low RPM.

- Who is this mod for?
- It is for people who like to stay at lower RPM, go on short rides, and/or have additional electric loads. This could be things like electronic ignition, heated hand-grips/jacket, extra lights, phone charger or other accessories.

- Who isn't this mod for?
- People with completely stock bikes that go on long rides and routinely rev their bike out. You will see little to no difference.

- How much does this mod cost?
- The part costs about $6, and is available here: https://www.futureelectronics.com/p/2009745?utm_source=eciaauthorized&utm_medium=CPCBuy&utm_campaign=ECIA_Ext_Refferals

- Is this mod difficult to do?
- Not at all! You just need a soldering iron, a piece of metal (preferably aluminum) to act as a heatsink and a drill.

Solder wires to the leads. In order from left-to-right, the pins are: Positive, Negative, AC1, AC2, AC3. The red wire is positive, and the green wire is negative, and the yellow wires are the AC from the alternator. It does not matter which order the AC wires are attached.


Make sure you heatshrink the connections. Also you should solder an additional flying ring-terminal lead to the negative of the rectifier. The ring terminal will later be attached to the mounting stud to ensure the bracket and rectifier assembly is grounded.


Wrap up and secure the wires - I used cloth wiring harness tape. I then attached the rectifier to the piece of metal using a large clip (although you could use other methods), and drilled a hole to fit the original rectifier mounting stud.


Rectifier installed and mounted on bike. You can see the grounded ring terminal going back to the stud.


So to sum up, for a total investment of $6 and about an hour of your time, you can get an additional 10-20 watts of charging system performance, and improved low-RPM charging. For someone like me who takes a lot of short trips and has some extra accessories, it's a no-brainer. Maybe someone with the time/energy could build a pre-made product for sale for those who don't feel comfortable doing electrical work?

The quoted Vf is at 15 amps. Please check at 5 amps. :)
Checked today, still about 0.60v
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 09:00:58 am by American Locomotive »

Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: The $6 Charging System Output Improvement Mod
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2020, 10:11:39 am »
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