Author Topic: Carb,fuel supply questions  (Read 1011 times)

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Offline mrbreeze

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Carb,fuel supply questions
« on: July 14, 2020, 05:44:23 pm »
I just posted to Hondaman (Mark) some jetting questions. I need to set my carbs up for an increase in altitude (89 ft. to 7000 ft.) As I'm going along to order other parts a lot of other questions are popping up. There is quite a bit of conflicting info as I go through the search function. I've been on this forum since 2005 and I have a good idea of who's who and would give the correct info.
To start, the bike is a 75 750K. It has 657B carbs. I need to order fuel tee o-rings. 1 guy says he got 2x8mm viton o rings in a 10 pack from Amazon. Another guy said the 2mm didn't look right so he got 1.8 mm. Does anyone know if the 2 mm will work? The next thing is fuel line. Most people are saying use 5.5 mm hose and it seals fine without clamps. Also they are specifying Tygon. Everything I'm seeing on 4 into 1 or Amazon is 1/4" or 3/16". Will I have to go to a specific place to get the metric stuff. I am going to have to redo all my lines because I'm going from a stock 75 tank with left side petcock to earlier right side petcock tank. The left side petcock has one outlet. The right side has 2. Does one hose go to #1&2 carb and the other to #3&4?
I just bought new insulators for the carbs. Also got new side covers from Frankenstuff . Got new speed nuts to install the new badges that I bought a few years back. I'm currently itching to get this bike back on the road. I took it apart back in 2014 to change cam pucks,engine paint,cover polishing, frame kit etc. Life,family health issues, a major move all got in the way. I just rode my son's Harley a couple of weeks ago so the urge to ride is back in a big way.
Anyhow, thanks for any info to help me out.
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Offline jaytee-nz

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Re: Carb,fuel supply questions
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2020, 05:49:19 pm »
I bought genuine Honda fuel line from 4into1 recently so I would go with that. Having said that I'm not sure if it is in stock right now.

Offline ekpent

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Re: Carb,fuel supply questions
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2020, 05:54:39 pm »
 Not really a fan of tygon unless its a little one cylinder or something I can get to easily and it runs a straight shot. It does get old and funky and it kinks very easily possible slowing down delivery. I always use real black rubber fuel line on the larger multi cylinder machines. 3/16th's is around 4.7mm and flows well and no clamps needed off a big huge roll of Goodyear I bought at a hardware store close-out.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2020, 05:58:37 pm by ekpent »

Offline mrbreeze

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Re: Carb,fuel supply questions
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2020, 05:59:44 pm »
OK that's good to know. I thought the Tygon was the stuff that didn't harden up. I think 4 into 1 is out of stock right now. Also I  don't think they were showing metric hose. I'll keep searching. Thanks Eric.
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Offline mrbreeze

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Re: Carb,fuel supply questions
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2020, 06:01:35 pm »
I think you're right Jaytee. I'll check a few other places.
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Offline Stev-o

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Re: Carb,fuel supply questions
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2020, 06:25:38 pm »
I always use real black rubber fuel line on the larger multi cylinder machines. 3/16th

+1...3/16" here too Fred, no clamps needed.  Gudentite! I get it at local auto parts store.

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Offline mrbreeze

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Re: Carb,fuel supply questions
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2020, 06:42:13 pm »
3/16" non tygon it is then. I will look at Advanced tomorrow. Thanks Steve.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Carb,fuel supply questions
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2020, 07:24:51 pm »
Isn't the stock fuel line 5.5mm? (.216")
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Offline AlekStooge

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Re: Carb,fuel supply questions
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2020, 07:49:15 pm »
Isn't the stock fuel line 5.5mm? (.216")

It is. I just ordered some from 4into1. The problem is most places don't have it in metric sizes. I had this problem before. 7/32 (if you can even find that) is the closest you'll get or next one will be 3/16. 4into1 had it recently since I got it ???

Offline scottly

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Re: Carb,fuel supply questions
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2020, 07:53:36 pm »
I believe old air-cooled VWs used that size, as well as BMW motorcycles? It had a braided fabric outer layer, and seemed to last forever. ;D
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Offline mrbreeze

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Re: Carb,fuel supply questions
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2020, 07:54:26 pm »
That's what I thought too Scottlly. It looks like fractional sizes are more readily available and Stevo & Eric are recommending 3/16". I see a 3 ft. 3/16" pc. of universal at Amazon for $6.95. This is coming from 4 into 1. Now I'm looking for 8 o rings for the fuel tees. I'm seeing 7.8 x 1.9mm as a choice and 8 x 2 mm as a choice. I think I'll take a carb and the fuel tee to Advanced Auto tomorrow. We can compare to one of the old flattened out o rings to make the decision. Last time they were apart was 2005 and I didn't change them then so I don't want to press my luck this time!
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Offline AlekStooge

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Re: Carb,fuel supply questions
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2020, 11:01:59 pm »
Funny, I took those of my carbs today. I'm on the hunt for 6 o-rings on my PD46C now. Not OEM but neither is the auto parts store.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-76-Honda-Carb-Fuel-Line-O-Ring-Kit-orings-seals-gas-cb750-cb550-cb500-tee-t-/293417663068?redirect=mobile

Offline ekpent

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Re: Carb,fuel supply questions
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2020, 06:34:26 am »
 In the next day or two I will be replacing the T orings on a K1. I will pay attention to the bag of them I have and hopefully it says the size. I used some on a couple of 550's and 500 last year with no leaks. Member Johnie has a NAPA part number for those that he uses when in need,maybe throw him a PM.
  If you go with the 3/16 a heat gun and a little grease gets it on the nipples better - oooh - I said nipple  :D

Offline Bodi

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Re: Carb,fuel supply questions
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2020, 07:08:46 am »
Tygon is a brand name, they make many types of tubing. The cheapest and most common is vinyl.
No clear tube I have tried (many) stays clear and soft with gasoline, they yellow and go very hard in a year or three. All vinyl tube does this, the plasticizer leeches out into the fuel. Teflon tube is entirely unaffected but is too stiff and not clear, it is unsuitable.
The black "rubber" OEM fuel line is best for long term flexibility but clear tube has an obvious advantage.
3/16" is 4.76mm so a tight fit on 5.5mm tube nipples, vinyl may crack at the nipples when it hardens. 1/4 is 6.35mm and too loose without clamps. Actual 5.5mm is best.
If you can get Viton o-rings, do. The butyl ones are not so good with ethanol fuel. Changing the fuel tee o-rings is no fun so using Viton can avoid doing it again in a few years.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 07:12:33 am by Bodi »

Offline mrbreeze

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Re: Carb,fuel supply questions
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2020, 01:18:56 pm »
Yeah I had clear hose on before and it got rock hard. It never leaked but I was starting to worry about it. I just pulled the trigger on some 3/16 on Amazon . Black rubber from 4 into 1 so I'll roll with that. If it gives me any problems in the next few years I'll remember to go for 5.5mm next time. I did find out for sure the tee O rings are 1.9x 7.9mm. It says it right in the carb parts breakdown in the Honda service manual. That seems very close to the 2x8mm others mentioned but if both work that's what matters. I noticed prices for these o rings are all over the map. I think some of these sellers are trying to pass off nitrile as viton. I'm sure the cheap ones would work fine but not hold up as long as the viton. I'll go for the good ones.
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Offline mrbreeze

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Re: Carb,fuel supply questions
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2020, 01:49:23 pm »
In the next day or two I will be replacing the T orings on a K1. I will pay attention to the bag of them I have and hopefully it says the size. I used some on a couple of 550's and 500 last year with no leaks. Member Johnie has a NAPA part number for those that he uses when in need,maybe throw him a PM.
  If you go with the 3/16 a heat gun and a little grease gets it on the nipples better - oooh - I said nipple  :D
Yeah....nipple....hehe! I will use dielectric to slide em on the nipples! I just went through some reading about putting grease on rubber for installation purposes. I had to change a grommet for a fuel filler tube in a 2000 Mustang that rotted out . I could smell gas and had a feeling that was what the problem was. Did one many moons ago on a 99 Mustang that was setting an EVAP code. I read that most common grease or oil would degrade the rubber but dielectric was more silicon based and would be better on the rubber.
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Offline ekpent

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Re: Carb,fuel supply questions
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2020, 04:21:06 pm »
 Spit works well also and its cheaper  ;D

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Carb,fuel supply questions
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2020, 06:05:21 pm »
I just posted to Hondaman (Mark) some jetting questions. I need to set my carbs up for an increase in altitude (89 ft. to 7000 ft.) As I'm going along to order other parts a lot of other questions are popping up. There is quite a bit of conflicting info as I go through the search function. I've been on this forum since 2005 and I have a good idea of who's who and would give the correct info.
To start, the bike is a 75 750K. It has 657B carbs. I need to order fuel tee o-rings. 1 guy says he got 2x8mm viton o rings in a 10 pack from Amazon. Another guy said the 2mm didn't look right so he got 1.8 mm. Does anyone know if the 2 mm will work? The next thing is fuel line. Most people are saying use 5.5 mm hose and it seals fine without clamps. Also they are specifying Tygon. Everything I'm seeing on 4 into 1 or Amazon is 1/4" or 3/16". Will I have to go to a specific place to get the metric stuff. I am going to have to redo all my lines because I'm going from a stock 75 tank with left side petcock to earlier right side petcock tank. The left side petcock has one outlet. The right side has 2. Does one hose go to #1&2 carb and the other to #3&4?
I just bought new insulators for the carbs. Also got new side covers from Frankenstuff . Got new speed nuts to install the new badges that I bought a few years back. I'm currently itching to get this bike back on the road. I took it apart back in 2014 to change cam pucks,engine paint,cover polishing, frame kit etc. Life,family health issues, a major move all got in the way. I just rode my son's Harley a couple of weeks ago so the urge to ride is back in a big way.
Anyhow, thanks for any info to help me out.

Yes, the 2x8 o-rings will fit just fine. The 1.9x7.9 that Honda lists is the MINIMUM size that will work. I use 2x8 in all the rebuilds, as they are far cheaper than the custom ones, and they will soften up over time when wet (and get hard when dry, totally normal). You don't need viton.

Honda sells the 5.5mm hose in an ethanol-resistant type: you'll know that by the dull red stripe running along on the hose.

Jetting: I live at 6000 feet and usually ride much higher, stock jetting, so long as you don't have #115 Keihin or #120 Keyster mainjets, will be fine. With the 657B carbs the floats are normally set slightly lean for those plastic floats, anyway. You can set them at 26mm instead of 25mm if your plugs tend to be too dark, otherwise I prefer the 25mm depth. Set the air screws to 3/4 to 7/8 turn for the proper idle mix, still within the air screw's adjustment range. Mine run right in between those 2 values.

The air hoses: all of those made today are between 1-2mm too small OD overall because the rubber is not as thick as the old ones. This means the clamps, especially the ones at the head side, won't seal very well. I recommend using the Oetiker clamps (at Aircraft Spruce) #050-9 at the head side. Just don't tighten them TOO tight, as they are aircraft-quality and able to cut clean thru the rubber (no, I won't tell you how I know that...). :D
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Offline mrbreeze

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Re: Carb,fuel supply questions
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2020, 09:49:00 am »
Hey Mark. After reading everybody's suggestions I'm going to go with the 4th clip and 120 mains. I have a feeling the 120's may be too much but easier to change those than the needles. I will look into those clamps. I got new insulators from 4 into 1 and they are supposed to be OEM. They look to be the same size as originals but I noticed they only have a number on one side. The originals had like a #1 and then a #4 when you flipped them over. I don't know who suggested viton o rings but after pricing them I figured they weren't that necessary. Glad to hear the 2 x 8mm will work. As far as the fuel line I already have some 3/16" coming from 4 into 1. It's supposed to be fine to use but we'll see.
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Offline mrbreeze

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Re: Carb,fuel supply questions
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2020, 04:49:07 pm »
That's what I thought too Scottlly. It looks like fractional sizes are more readily available and Stevo & Eric are recommending 3/16". I see a 3 ft. 3/16" pc. of universal at Amazon for $6.95. This is coming from 4 into 1. Now I'm looking for 8 o rings for the fuel tees. I'm seeing 7.8 x 1.9mm as a choice and 8 x 2 mm as a choice. I think I'll take a carb and the fuel tee to Advanced Auto tomorrow. We can compare to one of the old flattened out o rings to make the decision. Last time they were apart was 2005 and I didn't change them then so I don't want to press my luck this time!
Got the 3 ft. piece of 3/16" today from 4 into 1. You guys weren't kidding when you said it was tight! I think I'm gonna look for the 5.5mm . This 3/16 I can barely push over the barb and it bulges too much. I can see it being split in a few years. Feels like good hose though.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Carb,fuel supply questions
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2020, 04:59:45 pm »
That's what I thought too Scottlly. It looks like fractional sizes are more readily available and Stevo & Eric are recommending 3/16". I see a 3 ft. 3/16" pc. of universal at Amazon for $6.95. This is coming from 4 into 1. Now I'm looking for 8 o rings for the fuel tees. I'm seeing 7.8 x 1.9mm as a choice and 8 x 2 mm as a choice. I think I'll take a carb and the fuel tee to Advanced Auto tomorrow. We can compare to one of the old flattened out o rings to make the decision. Last time they were apart was 2005 and I didn't change them then so I don't want to press my luck this time!
Got the 3 ft. piece of 3/16" today from 4 into 1. You guys weren't kidding when you said it was tight! I think I'm gonna look for the 5.5mm . This 3/16 I can barely push over the barb and it bulges too much. I can see it being split in a few years. Feels like good hose though.

You're right about that: the 3/16" lasts about 15 months here.
The 5.5 is available from Honda: there is also some really good polyethylene type out there [somewhere] that I have seen on several carb sets in for rebuild. I don't [yet] know where to find it, some say Motion Pro, but haven't found it yet. It replaces the 5.5 and fits fine, and will never shrink or harden. It's OD is slightly larger, makes a noise when I squeeze it thru the carb hose holes in the front bracket, so it will not fit into the 550 brackets. For those it would have to go over the top and fight with the cable crank. :(
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline mrbreeze

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Re: Carb,fuel supply questions
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2020, 05:29:02 pm »
Well scratch that! I could only find 5.5mm on ebay and those thieves are wanting like $4 something per foot! Then I realized I tried to ram the 3/16 on dry. Put a little dielectric on (no spit Steve!) and it slid right on. Now to find some o rings for my tees. Car Quest (Advanced) didn't have any that were fuel resistant.
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Offline Stev-o

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Re: Carb,fuel supply questions
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2020, 04:31:40 pm »
Then I realized I tried to ram the 3/16 on dry. Put a little dielectric on (no spit Steve!)

Gotta lube it up before ya ram it, Breezy!!  Cmon Man, did you forget?!


No disrespect to Hondaman, but I've had the 3/16" on my K4 for at least 3 yrs, no issue.
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........