Author Topic: running rich  (Read 2687 times)

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Offline Maraakate

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Re: running rich
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2020, 06:07:09 PM »
Excessive fumes to those behind me
 

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What colour?  Can you see it when idling?
1977 CB550K
1979 CM400A

Offline evinrude7

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Re: running rich
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2020, 06:12:40 PM »
Excessive fumes to those behind me
 

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What colour?  Can you see it when idling?
No


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Offline Maraakate

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Re: running rich
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2020, 06:19:38 PM »
Excessive fumes to those behind me
 

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What colour?  Can you see it when idling?
No


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Can you see it at all, at any time?  Have you personally smelled the exhaust (carefully, obviously)?  If the plugs are in order in the picture, I'd say the 2-3 look pretty good and I'd live with it.  1-4 look slightly sooty, but probably OK.  Since it's 1-4 related it could be 1-4 points and/or ignition coil/caps/etc.

You could also try the "dollar bill test" if you have some currency large enough to cover the exhaust hole and see if it stains the bill.  See: https://mechanics.stackexchange.com/questions/23418/what-is-the-dollar-bill-test
« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 06:26:32 PM by Maraakate »
1977 CB550K
1979 CM400A

Offline Maraakate

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Re: running rich
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2020, 06:25:04 PM »
This could be incidental, and I assume you already checked... but there is absolutely no air leaks from 1 and 4?  You checked top, bottom, left, and right with some PB Blaster at the airbox and intake side?

Still operating on the assumption that the outer two plugs are 1-4 and that it's probably ignition related, gap may be slightly off for 1-4.  Did you use a timing light to verify the timing?  There is some test procedures in the service manual to test the coils.  You'd have to look it up as I don't know what points to probe or what the values are supposed to be.
1977 CB550K
1979 CM400A

Offline evinrude7

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Re: running rich
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2020, 06:27:54 PM »
Excessive fumes to those behind me
 

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What colour?  Can you see it when idling?
No


Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

Can you see it at all, at any time?  Have you personally smelled the exhaust (carefully, obviously)?  If the plugs are in order in the picture, I'd say the 2-3 look pretty good and I'd live with it.  1-4 look slightly sooty, but probably OK.  Since it's 1-4 related it could be 1-4 points and/or ignition coil/caps/etc.

You could also try the "dollar bill test" if you have some currency large enough to cover the exhaust hole and see if it stains the bill.
I have smelled it before but didn't seem overwhelming to me. The two riders that mentioned it said they definitely noticed it. The first guy was during a continuing ed riders course. He kind of made a big stink about it. Lots of idling while waiting in line and pulling away. The other dude was this past weekend. I lead the first 75 miles and he mentioned it was tough to be close behind. I did notice him staying off my tail. We spoke about possible reasons for the issue. I'm not thrilled w the plug colors but yeah 44 year old bike. First thing I checked was points. I reckon I could test the coils and condensers.


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Offline evinrude7

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Re: running rich
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2020, 06:29:30 PM »
This could be incidental, and I assume you already checked... but there is absolutely no air leaks from 1 and 4?  You checked top, bottom, left, and right with some PB Blaster at the airbox and intake side?

Still operating on the assumption that the outer two plugs are 1-4 and that it's probably ignition related, gap may be slightly off for 1-4.  Did you use a timing light to verify the timing?  There is some test procedures in the service manual to test the coils.  You'd have to look it up as I don't know what points to probe or what the values are supposed to be.
Yes done with a light. I'll check for air leaks.

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Offline evinrude7

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Re: running rich
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2020, 06:35:01 PM »
I'll need to verify this but I do have some decel popping which is a whole lot quieter and dull with the diffusers on these 341s. Need to verify if it's coming from 1 and 4. Almost certain about 1.

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Offline Maraakate

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Re: running rich
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2020, 06:40:18 PM »
You also mention a K&N air filter in there.  For #$%*s and giggles have you tried going back to the original air filter?  Sometimes they can make things overly rich if it's excessively oiled.  It may also change the air/fuel ratio which means having to experiment with jets, which may be "fun" to you but it's not to me.

For what it's worth, and I have not verified this, but I've heard plenty of anecdotal evidence from Hondaman on these forums that air leaks on these particular type of carbs used on the SOHC4's will actually cause a rich condition.  If there is an air leak and this is true, then that could be the issue.

Also, keep in mind that coils can read good on a meter, but may not show a problem until they get warmed up and then the resistance changes and causes funny things to happen.  You can always swap the coil from one side to the other and see if the plug colours move from 1-4 to 2-3.

Condensor is probably OK.  A lot of people blame them, but they seem to be fairly reliable if the bike is stock.  There's a few tests you can do, but the easiest one is to run the bike with the cover off in a dimly light area or at night and see if the points are excessively arcing.  If they are you can get still get new OEM condensors or you can buy Hondaman's transitorized ignition box which bypasses the condensors, but keeps the points.  This will prevent the points from wearing out further, eliminating the arcing.

Some slight decel popping is probably normal IF these carbs don't have an air cut-off valve.  I don't know if they do, but if it's mid 70s then I would say probably not.  Someone else will have to chime in on that because I don't know what a total stock mid-70s era 750 is supposed to sound like during decel.  From what I have read on here though, it is apparently normal and that the stock exhaust was designed to hide it quite a bit.
1977 CB550K
1979 CM400A

Offline Maraakate

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Re: running rich
« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2020, 06:41:44 PM »
See http://www.dansmc.com/carb15.htm for more info on air cut-off valves if you are interested.
1977 CB550K
1979 CM400A

Offline evinrude7

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Re: running rich
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2020, 06:45:40 PM »
You also mention a K&N air filter in there.  For #$%*s and giggles have you tried going back to the original air filter?  Sometimes they can make things overly rich if it's excessively oiled.  It may also change the air/fuel ratio which means having to experiment with jets, which may be "fun" to you but it's not to me.

For what it's worth, and I have not verified this, but I've heard plenty of anecdotal evidence from Hondaman on these forums that air leaks on these particular type of carbs used on the SOHC4's will actually cause a rich condition.  If there is an air leak and this is true, then that could be the issue.

Also, keep in mind that coils can read good on a meter, but may not show a problem until they get warmed up and then the resistance changes and causes funny things to happen.  You can always swap the coil from one side to the other and see if the plug colours move from 1-4 to 2-3.

Condensor is probably OK.  A lot of people blame them, but they seem to be fairly reliable if the bike is stock.  There's a few tests you can do, but the easiest one is to run the bike with the cover off in a dimly light area or at night and see if the points are excessively arcing.  If they are you can get still get new OEM condensors or you can buy Hondaman's transitorized ignition box which bypasses the condensors, but keeps the points.  This will prevent the points from wearing out further, eliminating the arcing.

Some slight decel popping is probably normal IF these carbs don't have an air cut-off valve.  I don't know if they do, but if it's mid 70s then I would say probably not.  Someone else will have to chime in on that because I don't know what a total stock mid-70s era 750 is supposed to sound like during decel.  From what I have read on here though, it is apparently normal and that the stock exhaust was designed to hide it quite a bit.
I have Mark's ignition on there. So it actually bypasses the condensers?  I don't believe I over oiled the air filter. Certainly not like I used to on my Jeeps.

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Offline evinrude7

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Re: running rich
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2020, 06:48:06 PM »
See http://www.dansmc.com/carb15.htm for more info on air cut-off valves if you are interested.
Thanks

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Offline Maraakate

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Re: running rich
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2020, 06:53:54 PM »
I have Mark's ignition on there. So it actually bypasses the condensers?  I don't believe I over oiled the air filter. Certainly not like I used to on my Jeeps.

I believe so.
1977 CB550K
1979 CM400A

Offline PeWe

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Re: running rich
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2020, 03:17:39 AM »
Needles are not stock?
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline evinrude7

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Re: running rich
« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2020, 06:30:29 AM »
Needles are not stock?

could be.  i need to pull the carbs apart when i have a few hours of free time.  going to look into all of these suggestions.  very appreciative of the replies. 
cb750 k6 - ugly