Author Topic: Hanging idle....I'm done  (Read 15415 times)

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Offline Scott S

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Re: Hanging idle....I'm done
« Reply #75 on: September 13, 2020, 08:02:03 AM »
 I pulled the carbs today. While the cable was off, I operated the bell crank and they snap back cleanly. I didn't run it like that, because I wanted it cool and free of gas so I could pull them. Throttle cable moves smooth as silk and is routed per factory manual.

 Speaking of factory manual, mine shows a different method to measure the 49mm. I think the German version is right, as the slides would be WAY too far open and you would run out of adjustment on the idle screw using this method.

'71 CB500 K0
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'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline Scott S

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Re: Hanging idle....I'm done
« Reply #76 on: September 13, 2020, 09:04:39 AM »
 Everybody please watch the vid. I think Hondaman may be on to something. I would like plenty of feedback on anything else to check before I wrestle these things back in the frame.


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'17 Triumph Street Scrambler
'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline minimo

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Hanging idle....I'm done
« Reply #77 on: September 13, 2020, 09:15:12 AM »
Definitely go with the more snug fit on the main jet o-rings. Be sure not to fit it too dry or else risk shearing the o-rings, if they’re too tight (don’t ask me how I know). Light application of MMO works well. It would make sense that if fuel were to leak passed the main jet circuit, you get some of these hanging issues.

Get the good o-rings on there, slap the carbs back on, and get it ride in! It’s Sunday!

You’re not “done” yet, Scott


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Offline Scott S

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Re: Hanging idle....I'm done
« Reply #78 on: September 13, 2020, 09:19:24 AM »
 I'm about to go ride, alright. But it'll be on my trusty Triumph!
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Offline minimo

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Re: Hanging idle....I'm done
« Reply #79 on: September 13, 2020, 09:19:51 AM »
Yes!!!


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Offline minimo

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Re: Hanging idle....I'm done
« Reply #80 on: September 13, 2020, 09:22:26 AM »
While you got the carbs off and in there, be sure to blow out all of the passages with compressed air.


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Offline Rookster

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Re: Hanging idle....I'm done
« Reply #81 on: September 13, 2020, 10:25:44 AM »
I had hanging idle problems on my Dunstall CB750.  Like you I was sure there were no air leaks.  I set the floats several times to be sure.  I got brand new Keihin idle jets.  All other brass was genuine Keihin.  I synched the carbs several times with vacuum gauges just to be sure.  I could stop it by physically pushing down on the linkage that moves the slides but nothing else would cure it.  The only thing that cured it was adding the push cable.  At first it didn't cure it but I could get the idle to drop by twisting  forward on the throttle.  After some miles twisting forward on the throttle (I'm not sure how many but maybe 200) it didn't do it anymore.  The only change I made was adding the push cable and riding the bike.  The only thing I can think of is there must have been some drag on one of the slides and coupled with intake suction caused a slide to hang up.  If the push cable didn't cure it for me the next step was adding individual springs to the top of each slide like Amals have instead of the single heavy spring. 

If it isn't intake leak and it's not jetting then it has to be mechanical.  You have eliminated the advancer (has it ever been the advancer BTW).  My guess is a slide is hanging up.  When we twist the throttle and let it go with the bike not running it snaps back hard.  When the bike is running we rarely do that and there is intake suction that wants to keep the slides where they are.  Coming to a stop we roll the throttle off instead of letting go of the grip.  It's a much gentler closing of the slides that causes one or two to not close fully.

Scott

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Hanging idle....I'm done
« Reply #82 on: September 13, 2020, 10:35:12 AM »
Everybody please watch the vid. I think Hondaman may be on to something. I would like plenty of feedback on anything else to check before I wrestle these things back in the frame.


certainly looks like you may have found something...err Hondaman did.  I have always found that those style jets take a good amount of force to install or remove.
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Hanging idle....I'm done
« Reply #83 on: September 13, 2020, 11:18:42 AM »
Scott,
Hoping all 4) emulsion tubes/needle jets have a good seal where the brass meets the casting holes at the bottom of the venturis so there isn't non-atomized fuel entering your combustion chambers:just properly metered fuel flowing up each of those needle jets past the tapered needles.

oops,sorry  :-[ these carbs are different style than what I meant, with an integral needle jet that's not removeable.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2020, 11:25:06 AM by grcamna2 »
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
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Offline grcamna2

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Re: Hanging idle....I'm done
« Reply #84 on: September 13, 2020, 11:26:54 AM »
Definitely go with the more snug fit on the main jet o-rings. Be sure not to fit it too dry or else risk shearing the o-rings, if they’re too tight (don’t ask me how I know). Light application of MMO works well. It would make sense that if fuel were to leak passed the main jet circuit, you get some of these hanging issues.

Get the good o-rings on there, slap the carbs back on, and get it ride in! It’s Sunday!

You’re not “done” yet, Scott


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Yeah !
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline ekpent

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Re: Hanging idle....I'm done
« Reply #85 on: September 13, 2020, 04:17:09 PM »
 That jet does look pretty loose in there. On the last set of 500 and 550 carbs I redid I remember having to put a little lube on the o-rings I used from a fact  somewhere in here and had to lightly tap the jets in. Remember thinking that it really didn't even need the leaf spring to hold it in at that point but of course used them. Same with the float needle seat.
  I bought a whole bag of them so if you get in a jam sure I can scrounge some up Scott.
Edit : Went back to my 2018 Ebay purchases and seen I bought the 3.5 x 1.2mm which Hondaman does not like ? I bought 5 x 1.5 mm for the float seat and 7/32 x 11/32 for bowl drain screws. Bought some 3/32 x 7/32 but can't remember what the hell for  :D
« Last Edit: September 13, 2020, 04:37:26 PM by ekpent »

Offline jonda500

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Re: Hanging idle....I'm done
« Reply #86 on: September 13, 2020, 06:42:06 PM »
my main jets (new oem) also had to be tapped in with a little hammer (and pulled out carefully with pliers) and yes, if they're not lubed the o ring can easily be damaged :-[
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Offline maxheadflow

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Re: Hanging idle....I'm done
« Reply #87 on: September 13, 2020, 09:02:07 PM »
It's not the main jets causing the problem.  It's the fact that you have too much of the adjuster screw sticking up out of the nut.


Offline minimo

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Re: Hanging idle....I'm done
« Reply #88 on: September 13, 2020, 09:11:09 PM »
Eeesh. Good eye, max. Those do look backed out quite a bit. Looks like the carbs were bench synched with an M6 bolt as a gauge


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Offline Scott S

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Re: Hanging idle....I'm done
« Reply #89 on: September 14, 2020, 04:11:59 AM »
It's not the main jets causing the problem.  It's the fact that you have too much of the adjuster screw sticking up out of the nut.

 And I'm thinking that will be cured when I set the 49mm on the bell crank. I will have to lower the slides now that I have that gap.
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Offline ekpent

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Re: Hanging idle....I'm done
« Reply #90 on: September 14, 2020, 04:40:42 AM »
 When I had a hanging idle a little bit on a 550 I could take my finger and push down on those arms where the adjusting arms are pictured while running and the idle would lower telling me the slides were adjusted to high at idle.

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Hanging idle....I'm done
« Reply #91 on: September 14, 2020, 11:05:24 AM »
Eeesh. Good eye, max. Those do look backed out quite a bit. Looks like the carbs were bench synched with an M6 bolt as a gauge


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Yes,thanks for that observation !
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Hanging idle....I'm done
« Reply #92 on: September 14, 2020, 01:17:36 PM »
Scott, that's a good video and to the point. I've stressed multiple times in this forum to check the O-rings around the main jets fit well. You're the first to give feedback. However... I doubt that is the cause of your hanging idle. The correct idle on these CB500/550s consists of several things that have to be set right. Starting position should be what Gruzzel has depicted. BTW, I know him as very gründlich although I will never advice anybody to separate the carbs from the rack. Also I have never understood that picture (Fig. 5) Honda put on p.8 of the Shop Manual CB500-550. I have ignored it all these years, also because whenever I synched the carbs (maybe 3 times in total over 40 years!) a little tweak was all that was needed anyway, so my adjuster screws stayed pretty close to where the factory had set them. Yours look way off. I give you a good chance that once you've started from the right position, you will be able to cure the problem. Another thing I must warn against (although you probably know it) is to go for a highest possible idle by turning out the airscrews and then restrain the rpm by the big central idle adjuster. No doubt you will get a wonderful idle and have the engine pur like a kitten. But... driveability will be poor. These oldstyle CB500/550s need a idle that is a combination of somewhat raised slides and then have the rpm restrained so to speak by air screws set on the rich side. It may sound counter intuitive, but it has always worked for me. After all these are simple carbs that lack acceleration jets.
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Offline Scott S

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Re: Hanging idle....I'm done
« Reply #93 on: September 14, 2020, 01:57:29 PM »
 I've set the crank to 49 mm (German method) and set the slides using a small drill bit (can't remember the size off the top of my head). Now the sync screw have 4-5 threads showing. Mixture screws started at 1 turn out, now at 3/4 turns out.
 Pilot jets are 40's. Float heights are all correct.

 I have cranked it (fired right up) and ridden it a bit, but had to stop for today. I'll be back with a true update soon.
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'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline jeff d

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Re: Hanging idle....I'm done
« Reply #94 on: September 14, 2020, 02:20:57 PM »
Suspense!
Longtime caretaker of Hondas but new to SOHC/4's

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Hanging idle....I'm done
« Reply #95 on: September 14, 2020, 02:24:27 PM »
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline Scott S

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Re: Hanging idle....I'm done
« Reply #96 on: September 15, 2020, 07:59:06 AM »
 I've got nearly an hour of ride time on it now. So far, it's not hanging. I'm cautiously optimistic that it's fixed.

 Some changes from the beginning of this thread:

 -Paper EMGO filter instead of foam UNI.
 -Points (good TEC stuff) instead of Tyronics.
 -Set bell crank to 49mm gap (German method) and sync screws are now at 4-5 threads out.
 -Mixture screws are at 3/4 turn from seated.
 -Changed main jets for some that had better fitting O-rings (still Keihin 100's).

 I'm not really sure that the filter or points had anything to do with it, but it's running well that way so I'm leaving it alone.
 
 I learned a lot. I'm not sure if the main jet O-rings have shrunk since initial installation or just never fit quite right. I never knew about the 49mm thing. And now I know what the sync screws should look like on a "baseline".
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 08:27:01 AM by Scott S »
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'81 Yamaha XS650

Offline maxheadflow

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Re: Hanging idle....I'm done
« Reply #97 on: September 15, 2020, 08:18:16 AM »
The sync screws need to be screwed in enough to provide preload to the springs in the mechanism.  Not enough preload and the mechanism can't control the slides.  It's one of the reasons why I suggested checking carb sink when the issue occurred.  You'd probably find that the carbs had gone out of sync.  There are a number of places where screws and springs can become loose and cause issues.

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Hanging idle....I'm done
« Reply #98 on: September 15, 2020, 12:19:50 PM »
... I never knew about the 49mm thing. ...
That's probably because that particular page 8 is missing in practical all Shop manuals (Honda CB500-550) offered on the internet*. Occasionally I have offered some of you a scan of that page in my paper edition, be it with mixed feelings. Where the rest of that page is correct, I always had the suspicion there was something wrong with that pic (Fig 5.). I myself have always ignored Fig. 5 and was very pleased when Gruzzel - quite recently actually - on the German site posted his findings to enlighten us once and for all.
* It tells you something about the echoing chamber the internet is.
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Offline Erny

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Re: Hanging idle....I'm done
« Reply #99 on: September 15, 2020, 12:23:12 PM »
Delta, I was wondering on that particular fig too..
Recent explanation makes sense, I'll verify soon once my new carbset will arrive from NL and will prepare it for fitment
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