Author Topic: "Is the Sand-Cast Honda CB750 Actually Better or Just Collectible?"  (Read 1383 times)

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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: "Is the Sand-Cast Honda CB750 Actually Better or Just Collectible?"
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2020, 06:56:29 PM »
Engine rebuilders know that early cylinder heads were much more carefully prepared.  A quick glance into a K0 intake port compared to a k3 and later makes this painfully obvious.  I suspect this level of hand preparation pertained to many other area's of the bike.  So yeah, I think the earlier the bike, the better, in many scenarios.  Perhaps not all though.  I know Honda manufacturing was diligent at not only improving productions costs, but also many engineering problems were solved.  A good example is the late bikes shift much better than early and mid ones.  Whether the early bikes are enough better to warrant the difference in collector market pricing?  I don't know.  I can't afford one.
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline Bodi

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Re: "Is the Sand-Cast Honda CB750 Actually Better or Just Collectible?"
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2020, 10:03:18 PM »
The CB750 changed motorcycles overnight, it's the first "superbike", the first modern four - and the other Japanese makes scrambled to catch up. The Z1 is, arguably, superior to the CB750 but historically the Honda 750 is more significant.
The early 750 engine cases were sandcast. In itself this is hardly exceptional, but Honda changed to a diecast case production process when the numbers ordered spiked and made the extremely expensive dies economical. These eliminate cumbersome sand casting process steps and eliminate common casting failures from the fairly delicate sand forms and cores.
So the sandcast engines were obsoleted after diecast components were introduced. Several changes were made that are easy to see.
Thus the earliest examples of the world's first superbike are easily identified, and limited.
Due to a bad design decision, the early bikes were prone to chain failure... and another questionable design decision meant a chain failure usually would crack open the engine case. Many sandcast engines with this condition repaired under warranty had diecast case replacements, making them not quite sandcast although the engine numbers indicate they are... and dealers sometimes neglected to punch the number onto the case anyway.
So... these eminently collectible machines had a limited production run, many were crashed or scrapped, others had cases replaced with the later production diecast type.
The market value of an original, matching number (the engine # never exactly matches frame #,  but with a believable close match) and correct other parts (many parts changed in early production and super anal experts will know exactly what parts your serial should have) is not related to any factor of performance... it will almost certainly never be ridden. The astronomical value is only as a rare and sought after collectible.

That said, the sandies did perform better than later models in some ways. Later models were detuned due to government rules for emissions, and for longevity... Honda wanted them to get out of warranty before breaking, and had not designed for them being run flat out all day on the USA's interstate highways.

Offline trigger

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Re: "Is the Sand-Cast Honda CB750 Actually Better or Just Collectible?"
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2020, 04:32:15 AM »
I have lost count of how many sandcast engines i have built. But, the sandcast engine itself is like working on old tractor machinery and do sound like it with the very early clutch basket :o The sandcast bike and the K0/K1 sound a lot better due to the 300 exhausts.

I myself like the K2 as, all the problems were sorted out by then. All the 750 SOHC's are very reliable until they started with the PD carbs and bigger head valves.

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: "Is the Sand-Cast Honda CB750 Actually Better or Just Collectible?"
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2020, 07:31:04 AM »
The real problem is they have become so “collectable” that most owners don’t ride them anymore. Yes, there are many exceptions, but it’s true. I have a non sand cast K0 and even it is “kept for shows”. Silly, but true. My K1 is my favourite. I ride it a lot, and the performance difference is not noticeable. It sounds better (HM300 pipe) and runs quicker than my K3 or K4.........

Offline Ujeni

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Re: "Is the Sand-Cast Honda CB750 Actually Better or Just Collectible?"
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2020, 08:56:32 AM »
Sandcasts are valuable because they were the very first version of a bike that changed motorcycling history. Naturally, they are rare too. Perhaps the best way to explain their value is that collectors are willing to pay for them.

They are surprisingly reliable. I ride a sandcast as my daily driver. A modern chain solves the chain problem that sunk so many sandcasts and later CB750s. Past that, keeping the fuel clean, carbs happy and points properly set is all it really takes. The sound of the no-number exhaust is the best a CB750 can sound. My 100% stock CB750 sandcast loves going 100 mph+ too :)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 09:19:24 AM by Ujeni »
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Offline 754

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Re: "Is the Sand-Cast Honda CB750 Actually Better or Just Collectible?"
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2020, 09:11:36 AM »
 The knobs that write those articles, don't always have the story right, I am referring  to the previous one that was listed on here, last few days.
 They failed to mention attrition rate was huge...it was the times..so many bikes were modified. .choppers mostly , drag bikes road racers... and the parts were spread to the wind... a lot more than many bikes that came after these.
 The engine factory,  the 4 cylinder was far more complex, Honda changed their whole process. They went to cell manufacturing, they maybe we're the first to do so.. Cases went in, finished one's came out... nobody was doing that.
Not sure when that was fully running, but I bet it coincided with the diecast cases. That was a huge investment, and by then they knew it could and would pay off.
 Rarity  usually does not mean high prices, you need high demand..
 Yes , when the 750 came out, it changed the bike world..
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 12:24:12 PM by 754 »
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Tim2005

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Re: "Is the Sand-Cast Honda CB750 Actually Better or Just Collectible?"
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2020, 11:53:54 AM »
Seemed to me that they weren't particularly valued until 10 or so years ago when they were nominated into something like the AMA hall of fame,  then all the collectors appeared and pushed the prices up.  Before then Vic World, DSS and others had the foresight to stock up when the bits & bikes were cheap.

Offline 754

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Re: "Is the Sand-Cast Honda CB750 Actually Better or Just Collectible?"
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2020, 12:25:54 PM »
    They were hot in 2000 when i sold mine.. but at lesser value than today.... but still high prices for back then. Higher than everything else.
 Not as hot as property has been around here.. we brought the shop we were in about 15 years back, it's gone up  4 times the value..
 
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 12:29:04 PM by 754 »
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline jlh3rd

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Re: "Is the Sand-Cast Honda CB750 Actually Better or Just Collectible?"
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2020, 12:27:10 PM »
I remember,vaguely, in 1994 when i found my 550 that 1969 750's could be around $1700 in the local paper. Here's a walnecks ad from 1994. Prices of course were higher than a local ad. $4600 in 1994 is worth around $8000 today....I'd venture around the early 2000-20005 the word " sandcast":began generating a second look....

« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 12:33:17 PM by jlh3rd »

Offline Rookster

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Re: "Is the Sand-Cast Honda CB750 Actually Better or Just Collectible?"
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2020, 07:21:37 AM »
Quote
I'd venture around the early 2000-20005 the word " sandcast":began generating a second look....

It was earlier than that.  I got a K6 in 1989 for the equivalent of about $100 worth of baseball cards.  I started to look in the classifieds for CB750s and visit the local Honda Dealer frequently (Imperial Cycle), who is long gone now.  But I started to pay attention.  Running CB750s could be had for $500 or less.  Non-running were between $200 and free.  In the early 90s Cycle World did the article West by CB750.  This started a resurgence of the CB750 as an important motorcycle.  I would say by 1995 the term Sandcast meant more money.  Not the huge gap we see today between Sandcast/K0 and K3/4/5/6 but  more than the usual $500-$1200 running bike.

Scott

Offline jlh3rd

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Re: "Is the Sand-Cast Honda CB750 Actually Better or Just Collectible?"
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2020, 09:17:36 AM »
Yep, "sandcast" garnered more money, but it didn't " takeoff" until around 2000.......Like the ad showed, I wish I could get an unrestored, all original, mint, all paperwork, 69 sandcast for $8000 today.........instead of $18,500 for one in fair condition to $44,500 for a mint condition one.....according to Hagerty current values...


Offline Prospect

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Current Bikes

1969 CB750  Sandcast #256
1971 CB750K1
1972 CB750K1
1975 CB400F
1975 GL1000 Goldwing
1954 Harley Davidson Panhead
1957 Harley Davidson Panhead

Toronto Canada

Online PeWe

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More about the early exhaust
My almost stock K2 has HM300 replicas with diffusers in but no padding.

They are louder than my Hindle 4-2-1 on my 1000cc K6 when cruising in 60 mph.

The even earlier 4-4 called Lotus Root sounds even more with a deeper tone. This model sat on the Sandcasts. Not cheap for replica.

Yamiya's No numbers a good upgrade if a stock 4-4 is needed on a K0-K6.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 09:21:20 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Don R

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Re: "Is the Sand-Cast Honda CB750 Actually Better or Just Collectible?"
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2020, 07:44:03 PM »
  Of course they are better, especially mine. L0L!
  A friend had a sandcast head in a 750 mini sprint car engine. Every thread in it was stripped and helicoiled. Why didn't I buy it? It was professionally ported and rebuilt too. 
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