Author Topic: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.  (Read 1951 times)

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Offline Nicklopic

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Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« on: November 13, 2020, 08:42:36 AM »
I feel doing plug chops is a dated and unpractical method to determine jetting.
With how cheap, small, and accurate wideband O2 sensors are I don’t see why anyone would both still doing plug chops.
My reasons:
1. It sounds so ridiculously inconvenient to be pulling plugs on the side of the road after pulls
2. Unless you really know what you’re looking at, reading plugs can be subjective
3. It’s time consuming.
4. A wideband is accurate and you can view AFRs live at any throttle input on the fly
5. You get a numerical AFR value so you can actually have a quantitative value to compare changes and see where you’re at.
6. Temporarily rigging up a set up is way easier that messing around with plugs all day.
7. There’s so many companies and options for sensors, displays, data logging if you want, etc etc

I’m bored, let’s argue.
80' CB650
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Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2020, 08:59:30 AM »
I totally agree, but since I’m way older than my bikes, I still like to look at plugs..... As long as I have my 2.0 glasses and a bright light! Have a great day.

Offline 754

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2020, 09:18:30 AM »
I used to pull a plug and check it on the downhill return road ant our dragstrip, read it , screw it back in finger tight, bumpstart while still rolling, ride back to pit.,...done..
 Can you install sniffer without cutting or welding to pipe ? How much gear, what cost ?

 The bigger problem is people not knowing how/-when   to kill bike and how to come to a stop, coupled with actually knowing how to read them..
« Last Edit: November 13, 2020, 09:20:39 AM by 754 »
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Nicklopic

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2020, 09:39:04 AM »
Can you install sniffer without cutting or welding to pipe ? How much gear, what cost ?
Yes, you can run tailpipe sniffers but you loose accuracy and low engine speeds since it’ll pull fresh air back in a little. My set up I made a piece of pipe to slip between my muffler and header with a bung in it so it could be removable and didn’t have to cut into my exhaust. They make band clamps with bungs in them for people who cannot weld too. Just drill a hole in a pipe and clamp the bung around it. All said and done it’s probably $150 to $200 for a complete set up and any bits needed to install.

Mine consists of a sensor, a controller, and a Bluetooth output so I could use my phone to display the gauge instead of running a conventional gauge.
I will also say I don’t think I could trust myself to read a plug to a margin of error I’d really be happy with. I like have an exact figure to loom at so there is no guess work
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Offline drumstyx

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2020, 10:17:07 AM »
Heh, here we go, I'd forgotten that this was an option at the cost of only 100-200 spark plugs, which I could probably run through tuning things to the level I'd really be happy with. Now that my old girl starts easy enough, I think this will be a worthwhile investment -- thank f***ing god plug chops can be a thing of the past...getting to them with a hot engine drives me NUTS.

Offline lash

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2020, 10:22:44 AM »
how about a link to a good sniffer?
Analog mind in a digital world..

Offline Nicklopic

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2020, 10:40:47 AM »
how about a link to a good sniffer?
Your best bet for a sniffer would probably be something like innovate makes. I have no experience with it though. More people make them but I’m pretty sure they’re all pretty similar
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Offline 754

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2020, 10:45:24 AM »
Drum , once you establish tbat all cylinder are burning the same... then usually pulling an outer plug will get you where you got to go..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2020, 03:41:24 PM »
yeah, I agree plug chops are generally not very useful for various reasons....


...except for one thing!  They tell if your hunch is right or not while you learn to use engine performance charactristics to tune with.  Can't tell a rich bog from a lean stumble?  Doesn't matter what you use to learn the difference, once you have learned this stuff you don't need any of it.
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline 754

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2020, 04:23:02 PM »
 Well I am not about to add a bunch of electronics and spend the money to get that capability.
 Reading plugs worked well for me at the dragstrip, after a while , it gets easier.  Made me quicker , made it easier to ride the bike., but that is just me and my methods..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2020, 05:58:18 PM »
yeah frank...plus oxygen sensor does not tell you anything about burning oil, coolant(sohc4's don't have it), the condition of your ignition system, or whether your engine is pre-igniting/detonating or most likely, which individual cylinder may be the problem child.
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2020, 04:20:38 AM »
I agree BUT, an even better option is bring it to an experienced dyno operator for a tune. If you have one near by it’s a no brainer. Under $400 for me and you’re done in a couple hours and you get to see your hp and torque numbers.

Nick, it would be cool to rent out your setup to people for a charge. Others wouldn’t have to fork over the main cost of the stuff and you’d recoup some money back. Considering once you’re done tuning it’s not a tool that gets regularly pulled off the shelf. Might as well have it make you money.

Offline Erny

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2020, 04:49:57 AM »
Can you install sniffer without cutting or welding to pipe ? How much gear, what cost ?
Yes, you can run tailpipe sniffers but you loose accuracy and low engine speeds since it’ll pull fresh air back in a little. My set up I made a piece of pipe to slip between my muffler and header with a bung in it so it could be removable and didn’t have to cut into my exhaust. They make band clamps with bungs in them for people who cannot weld too. Just drill a hole in a pipe and clamp the bung around it. All said and done it’s probably $150 to $200 for a complete set up and any bits needed to install.

Mine consists of a sensor, a controller, and a Bluetooth output so I could use my phone to display the gauge instead of running a conventional gauge.
I will also say I don’t think I could trust myself to read a plug to a margin of error I’d really be happy with. I like have an exact figure to loom at so there is no guess work
How you then deal with 4 pipes? 4 sniffers?
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CB550K1 USA model (1975)

Offline Nurse Julie

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2020, 05:31:10 AM »
I love a plug chop. I've been setting up my bikes like this for over 42 years now and it's simple, effective, costs nothing and once you know what you are looking at, totally accurate.
KEEP THE PLUG CHOP 😂😂😂😂
Trust me I'm a Nurse, I promise it won't hurt....much

Offline PeWe

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2020, 05:40:10 AM »
Good idea to check plugs now and then.
I catched cracked carb boots (2-3) recently before causing real bad. 3 was cracked 180 degrees hidden under the clamp. Plugs white-grey. Ex valves same color, no melt down .

Dyno with A/F check important. Check from idle and slowly increase.
I had very rich idle followed by  too lean up to almost 4000 rpm on 5th gear. After that rather OK.
Found on dyno, plugs were not that bad.

I have earlier checked with Yamiya no numbers 4-4 and with Lotus Root pipes on dyno that had 2 wideband lambda sonds. 2 runs, 1-2 + 3-4 without diffusers. Copper pipes stucked in as long as possible, the system sucks the ex fumes to the external mounted sonds.

This years dynos 4-2-1, 1 sond only.
My stock K2 with No number 4-4 felt OK all over so no AF check, only power craph.
Dyno guy had same feeling as me, OK.
Stock CB750 carbs with stock filter has not much to change.
Needle height and main jet size which I had tested on the road. Air screws also easy to test on road when testing various settings during a long ride with screwdriver in the jacket. Manual is correct 1 turn out  (ev.+/- 1/8).
Plugs look OK too.
I had drilled the needle jet a little to reduce hesitations at take offs. The 2x2 smallest holes closer to bottom opened by 1.0 mm drill.

Longer ride will help to determine correct jetting.
Slowly increase throttle when riding from 2000 rpm to 3000.
Slowly decrease back to 3000. Slowly increase to 4000, decrease back to 3000.
Do this all the way up to 8000 if bike can.

If it stutter at slow increase but not at slow decrease - Too lean.
Stutter at decrease, not at increase - Too rich.

Stutter all the time- too rich which probably should be visible  when standing still smoking black.
Needle heights and main jets easy to find this way by slowly increasing- decreasing- increasing... throttle.

Needles at around 120-150, main jets 140-190 kmh (CB750) so focus on the road too!!
Slow response earlier at WOT will improve with richer needle/ main if too lean before.

My K2 had too lean needles ,(middle) which I found when I increased main to 120 which improved middle range a lot, but stuttering rich at 160kmh.
Needles one notch richer, main jets 115 and OK. I had earlier tested 110 so I knew they were too lean at top.
(More restricted 341 pipes need middle needle and less main which verified on a friends bike this year)

Dyno important to verify. Other carbs with no known jetting really need dyno.
My TMR carbs where close, but I had to increase pilots a lot followed by lower needles so fuel screws could be reduced to solve the way too rich idle.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2020, 07:18:12 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Maltboy

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2020, 07:11:33 AM »
Mmmmmmmmm.... plug chops

Offline bustech51

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2020, 07:20:14 AM »
Whose controller would you suggest as well as what Bluetooth info/program is needed?  I have a 1975 cb750F, a 1977 cb750K and a  1978 cb750F.  Would like to monitor them all.

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Offline 754

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2020, 09:37:37 AM »
With some 4 into 1 exhaust,  you canbsee color of the exhaust residue of deposits. Once you know what it looks like when running well... you can see if there is a change.
 I had often heard Webers were altitude sensitive, but in a range of 6000 feet difference , it does not seem to be a big issue. If you stayed up high for a few weeks you may want to change jetting. .
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Nicklopic

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2020, 11:51:22 AM »
Sorry I got distracted and im back to argue hahaha

Im not saying people should not be looking at their plugs, I just think reading plugs for the purpose of jetting is stupid now a days. You definitely should be checking them periodically especially while tuning. I still went through like 3 sets of plugs just making sure they all matched and messing with the gap.

As 754 mentioned, if all cylinders are even you could probably get away with only monitoring one. Its not like anyone probably changes each carbs jet specific to each carb. I would still want to swap the sensor around to verify everything is good.
If youre burning enough oil to foul out a plug, youll definitely see some blue smoke, an ignition issue im sure youll feel, and if a cylinder goes dead or something youll see a big rich swing from all that unburnt fuel.

My set up is from PLX using their controller, their supplied lsu 4.9, and their Bluetooth dongle. They have an app that you download on your phone, ive used it on both my old android and my current iphone. I didn't want to make it seem like this was an advertisement so I didn't mention specifics right away lol

Renting my set up could be cool, im not sure how many people would really be interested though. Mounting solutions would be a bit of a trouble. Unless I made a bunch of different adapters or something similar to how I did mine but I would need samples to make them. Its an interesting idea and I might look into solutions to make it happen
80' CB650
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Offline 754

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2020, 12:51:58 PM »
It's just changing times.. the younger crowd will learn to be around and use the electronic method.
 It's just like auto repair..... nearly no young people entering the trade know how to work on carburettors. , or points ignition..

 But we tend to use what feels comfortable..  that said , some old people do like hew gadgets. . And enjoy trying new things .
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Nicklopic

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2020, 01:03:27 PM »
It's just changing times.. the younger crowd will learn to be around and use the electronic method.
 It's just like auto repair..... nearly no young people entering the trade know how to work on carburettors. , or points ignition..

 But we tend to use what feels comfortable..  that said , some old people do like hew gadgets. . And enjoy trying new things .
I know people have been doing plug chops for yearsssss, and im not expecting old timers to want to change that up. I do feel like its a task that seems daunting to a newbie and honestly I don't see why anyone would bother learning to anymore aside from basic yeah things look decent, nah this is dumb rich, or nah this is dumb lean.
As a young people getting into things, I hate carbs. They seemed like weird black magic at first lol. I still think their annoying and finicky but Ill admit they do their thing.
80' CB650
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Offline 754

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2020, 02:31:20 PM »
 Every time you  buy a bike or help to get one running, I doubt you would hookup those electronics.   When you don't have spark, you still pull a plug .. I would think. If you want to see if you have spark ..what do you use  ?
 So if it's out have a look at it, or after it runs.l
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline robvangulik

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2020, 02:38:11 PM »
It's just changing times.. the younger crowd will learn to be around and use the electronic method.
 It's just like auto repair..... nearly no young people entering the trade know how to work on carburettors. , or points ignition..

 But we tend to use what feels comfortable..  that said , some old people do like hew gadgets. . And enjoy trying new things .
I know people have been doing plug chops for yearsssss, and im not expecting old timers to want to change that up. I do feel like its a task that seems daunting to a newbie and honestly I don't see why anyone would bother learning to anymore aside from basic yeah things look decent, nah this is dumb rich, or nah this is dumb lean.
As a young people getting into things, I hate carbs. They seemed like weird black magic at first lol. I still think their annoying and finicky but Ill admit they do their thing.
So who or what is keeping you from buying a modern bike with fuelinjection and be done with carbs?
You hate carbs, so stop fiddling with them, and let us "old" guys get on with reading plugs and changing jets accordingly ;D

Offline Nicklopic

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2020, 02:57:56 PM »
Every time you  buy a bike or help to get one running, I doubt you would hookup those electronics.   When you don't have spark, you still pull a plug .. I would think. If you want to see if you have spark ..what do you use  ?
 So if it's out have a look at it, or after it runs.l
First thing I would do is hook up an inline spark indicator because i would have the answer to it having spark or not in the time it took to grab a ratchet and plug socket lol plus you can eyeball how strong the spark is very easily. Want to specifically see how week the spark is? Little adjustable gap thing that I don’t remember a real name or care lol to see that exact...ish voltage that’s being put out
So who or what is keeping you from buying a modern bike with fuelinjection and be done with carbs?
You hate carbs, so stop fiddling with them, and let us "old" guys get on with reading plugs and changing jets accordingly ;D
Pretty much nothing but I hate myself so I figured I’d make it really difficult on myself and try to build something cool while struggling the entire time lol
I figured out how my carbs work well enough, and if you ask me my jetting is spot on where I want it! Except idle because I’ve been too lazy to step down a size on my pilot jets. It’s cool out and it’s not overlyyyyy rich lol
80' CB650
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Offline robvangulik

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2020, 03:26:17 PM »
Quote
I’ve been too lazy to step down a size on my pilot jets. It’s cool out and it’s not overlyyyyy rich lol
That's just how these old bikes like their idle, a tad on the rich side, that way you can open the throttle without starving the poor thing :D
I must admit, there have been times in the past I would have paid a (small) fortune for equipment with the abilities your broadband gadgets make possible, but they hadn't been invented yet. Just like I'd like to know how many horses my bigbore 750 in 1979 really had, there was nowhere you could go to measure for real...

Offline Nicklopic

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2020, 05:23:44 PM »
Haven’t dynos been around for like 100 years? I mean I really have no idea how common they would have been or even how they would have worked but I thought they were a thing before 79 at least
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Offline 754

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2020, 05:55:00 PM »
By say 1980 , dynos were pretty scarce.. big towns had them, but for many you had to travel to get to one.
And if it was a Harley tuner, he might not be so inclined or receptive...
And it could be expensive.
 I remember when there was a show or event.. someone would bring a dyno, and folks would line up to use it..
 Folks that dragraced...us... usually figured things out the other way... well some of us did.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 01:58:38 AM by 754 »
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Nicklopic

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2020, 06:30:27 PM »
Why are some Harley guys so weird lol that’s so stupid to give people a hard time who are trying to pay for a service from you lol
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Offline PeWe

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Re: Let’s argue: Plug Chops are a thing of the past.
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2020, 12:15:57 AM »
Read plugs is an important knowledge. Now easy to find on internet. Not only about fuel mix, ignition and other engine damaging things.
https://honda-tech.com/forums/forced-induction-16/%2A%2A%2A-basics-reading-spark-plug%2A%2A%2A-3063102/

http://www.braigasen.com/howtoread.htm

I have used another site I do not find the link to.
Found it.
Read and learn ;D
https://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Reading_spark_plugs

When carbs are OK, plug inspection now and then to verify everything is OK.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 01:10:22 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967