Author Topic: What's the most common cause of a weak starter? (Read 10935 times)

juntjoo · « **Reply #100 on:** December 28, 2020, 04:24:08 PM »

Quote from: Scott S on December 28, 2020, 04:17:26 PM

You're in SW Florida; lose the grip heaters.
Return everything to the stock state.

Read up on how to test the 650 charging system. Follow THOSE DIRECTIONS; don't make up your own method.
You have either 1) a charging problem, or 2) a parasitic drain.

Your new battery may be salvageable, but test the stock wiring and charging system first.

i never made up any personal method. I just asked you guys. And I've followed the book too but haven't had luck so far figuring it out. But yes I'll go stick and start over.

I think there's definitely something draining it as it was charged a bit ago, then when I removed this charger it went dead shortly thereafter. I'm pulling everything non-stock off now

juntjoo · « **Reply #101 on:** December 29, 2020, 03:23:34 PM »

Update:

Had to get bike towed home last night. Couldn't hold a charge from my "battery tender" jump starter, which isn't actually a "battery tender" which is is just the brand. Doh!

So I charged it last night and just now tested and apparently it held a it's charge as it started up flawlessly. So that's good news for my battery at least. No "parasitic draw" right? And I took everything off, the relay and jump start kit I had on there. But now on to continuing to troubleshoot my electrical woes.

After going through the manual I remember now where I left off last year: I decided to replace the rotor as I did since resistance was out of spec and I believe other components seemed okay but I never got an ammeter. Before I go grab one, how's this one look? Things are getting pricey and I don't wanna overspend at this point.

Commercial Electric 600A AC Digital Clamp Meter
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-600A-AC-Digital-Clamp-Meter-CM-2033R/206288136

Or what do I need to look for minimum in one of these tools?

Last year I was looking into getting one of these ammeters you connect to your bike I've read about in here. If you get one of these could they replace the tool or no? Should I get one either way, AFTER I figure out what my problem here is? I like having feedback on what I'm working with and sounds like a ammeter along with a voltmeter built into your bike is a good idea for monitoring electrical health

Ordered this one:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07B1XPZS2/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_wU86FbNQD1HRA?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

bryanj · « **Reply #102 on:** December 30, 2020, 12:28:57 AM »

Cancel the order quickly that only works on AC not DC

bryanj · « **Reply #103 on:** December 30, 2020, 12:34:16 AM »

After the quick answer the considered one. This has gone on so long i have forgotten what the bike is but its difficult to fit an ammeter on any bike as the starter can take close to 200 amps for a short time. You can get a clip on DC ammeter but they are not accurate.

Deltarider · « **Reply #104 on:** December 30, 2020, 01:25:01 AM »

Parasitic is dead easy to detect ofcourse when bike is parked (everything switched OFF). Simply select Amp on your multimeter, disconnect the battery minus terminal and have the meter in between the battery minus terminal and the minus wire you have just disconnected. It should read zero. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO START!

juntjoo · « **Reply #105 on:** December 30, 2020, 07:25:19 AM »

Quote from: bryanj on December 30, 2020, 12:28:57 AM

Cancel the order quickly that only works on AC not DC

Haha thanks. I knew I needed to consult with you guys first. Np, easy returns with Amazon

I though these machines were AC. Okay, just at the alternator but then converted for everything to DC. Got it.

bryanj · « **Reply #106 on:** December 30, 2020, 07:39:46 AM »

electrickery is easy after the lesson in using a decent multimeter, I will happily travel and teach you BUT you might baulk at the airfare from UK, and that is if this virus sods off soon!!!

juntjoo · « **Reply #107 on:** December 30, 2020, 07:56:00 AM »

Quote from: bryanj on December 30, 2020, 07:39:46 AM

electrickery is easy after the lesson in using a decent multimeter, I will happily travel and teach you BUT you might baulk at the airfare from UK, and that is if this virus sods off soon!!!

If I sold my bike and some tools we could probably get you a ticket for a decent vacation out here but then we'd have another problem.

I'm a slow learner but I'm picking this stuff up bit by bit. Electric takes some imagination though.

And please don't let this "virus" get ya down. "they" ain't letting it go away til they want it gone or when we ignore the television. There's no proof viruses cause disease. But I won't go there!

juntjoo · « **Reply #108 on:** December 30, 2020, 08:16:56 AM »

Should I spend $14 for 6k "counts" vs 4k on a AC/DC ammeter?

No parasitic draw. Every morning it starts right up.

And while I wait for my ammeter to arrive, anyone have any idea why my voltmeter reads a volt less than actual direct-to-battery voltage through my "eklipes bike-2-bike jump start kit"?

https://eklipes.com/EK1-115

I'd like to get it working and throw on an ammeter too if there is a god one anyone could recommend in case I continue to have electric issues. I'd like to be able to monitor the situation while riding

754 · « **Reply #109 on:** December 30, 2020, 08:59:28 AM »

It does not take Imagination ....it takes LISTENING TO ADVICE...
MOST of these issues get solved , in one or two pages of Discussion..
Unless your Imagination gets in the way.....

bryanj · « **Reply #110 on:** December 30, 2020, 09:04:01 AM »

No two voltmeters will give you the same answer, especially cheap led ones

juntjoo · « **Reply #111 on:** December 30, 2020, 09:10:42 AM »

Quote from: 754 on December 30, 2020, 08:59:28 AM

It does not take Imagination ....it takes LISTENING TO ADVICE...
MOST of these issues get solved , in one or two pages of Discussion..
Unless your Imagination gets in the way.....

Okay smarty pants, I've given all info available, what's the problem? I'll paypal you a million dollars if you get it right.

But I'll humbly submit you have a little point about my imagination. Those things kinda serve you in some areas of life

BTW, any idea why voltage is lower through jump start kit and ignition relay?

juntjoo · « **Reply #112 on:** December 30, 2020, 09:13:18 AM »

Quote from: bryanj on December 30, 2020, 09:04:01 AM

No two voltmeters will give you the same answer, especially cheap led ones

No, if using my expensive one, $100, it verifies the same. Behind the relay or jump starter kit, less voltage than directly to battery

Bodi · « **Reply #113 on:** December 30, 2020, 09:43:48 AM »

All you need is a multimeter with 20A DC range, 10A may be enough. Connect it between the battery and where the harness connects - NOT including the starter motor. This is a wire to the battery on some bikes, to the solenoid input stud on others.
Use a low current range to test for parasitic load with key off. The 10 or 20A scale will indicate your charge or discharge current.
Starter current should be done with a shunt, a very low value high current resistor. Bought ones usually give 50mV at rated current but it isn't hard to make and calibrate on at home, if you're careful with electricity.

754 · « **Reply #114 on:** December 30, 2020, 10:20:33 AM »

Electrics and electronics are my weak point.
Go back to the beginning, 're read tgeadvice given. Study the nanual.. read up on the job you are about to work on..
I will give you an example of how some types of thinking gets you in trouble..
You have or suspect you had a problem with your spark plugs..
Common sense says change them.. eliminate one problem at a time.. it's part of troubleshooting.
So say you change them, and it makes no difference... so you can draw a conclusion that plugs were still working.
Common sense would say run the new ones, keep old ones for spares..
This now means, you coukd expect a longer interval before plug issues. Leaving old ones in, means the problem may come back sooner.. .
You clearly don't know what to do, and what you think may work, does not seem to get results.

I know a few people that say , "I would have thought xxxxxx xXxX would xXxX " and I say hold it right there, what you been thinking , has NOT BEEN WORKING..

This may be worth thinking about, it's up to you..

juntjoo · « **Reply #115 on:** December 30, 2020, 10:38:19 AM »

Quote from: Bodi on December 30, 2020, 09:43:48 AM

All you need is a multimeter with 20A DC range, 10A may be enough. Connect it between the battery and where the harness connects - NOT including the starter motor. This is a wire to the battery on some bikes, to the solenoid input stud on others.
Use a low current range to test for parasitic load with key off. The 10 or 20A scale will indicate your charge or discharge current.
Starter current should be done with a shunt, a very low value high current resistor. Bought ones usually give 50mV at rated current but it isn't hard to make and calibrate on at home, if you're careful with electricity.

Thanks. I think you mean "ammeter" right? I'd have gotten a "multimeter" if it had a current function but didn't look like any of them do. Unless it's got the clip at the top. Please don't tell me my nice automotive multimeter has some way of measuring current

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000KIMHRQ/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_tHm7Fb1FPWWZJ?psc=1

I'm sure it doesn't. But I miss a lot of stuff. Anyway, once 8 get my ammeter I'll be going step by step through the book and refer back to your suggestions...

juntjoo · « **Reply #116 on:** December 30, 2020, 10:45:50 AM »

Quote from: 754 on December 30, 2020, 10:20:33 AM

Electrics and electronics are my weak point.
Go back to the beginning, 're read tgeadvice given. Study the nanual.. read up on the job you are about to work on..
I will give you an example of how some types of thinking gets you in trouble..
You have or suspect you had a problem with your spark plugs..
Common sense says change them.. eliminate one problem at a time.. it's part of troubleshooting.
So say you change them, and it makes no difference... so you can draw a conclusion that plugs were still working.
Common sense would say run the new ones, keep old ones for spares..
This now means, you coukd expect a longer interval before plug issues. Leaving old ones in, means the problem may come back sooner.. .
You clearly don't know what to do, and what you think may work, does not seem to get results.

I know a few people that say , "I would have thought xxxxxx xXxX would xXxX " and I say hold it right there, what you been thinking , has NOT BEEN WORKING..

This may be worth thinking about, it's up to you..

Thanks for the example. Annoys me to no end when people just criticize without reference/solution. But I went by the book with my plugs. Exact same "blue spark" between old and new plugs the book calls for. And my "old" plugs aren't really old. Got em since getting the bike a few years ago with 3k miles put on the bike. And I see what you're saying, when in doubt just rule out components with new ones but I'm a bit of a frugal stickler and like to to know for sure when something isn't working for future reference and knowledge. But it turned out the battery was the "cold start" issue. So we got something figured out here. Anyway, I'll just keep going by the book and report back any further questions,... and try to avoid any harmful imaginations

PeWe · « **Reply #117 on:** December 30, 2020, 11:09:35 AM »

I bought a cheap auto multimeter that handles 20A DC which can be needed.

It has also Dwell function which is very useful when adjusting ignition points gap.

This handle only 10A DC
There are similar supporting 20A DC
https://www.harborfreight.com/lcd-automotive-multimeter-with-tachometer-kit-95670.html

Auto Multimeter or Multimeter for car is the thing....

robvangulik · « **Reply #118 on:** December 30, 2020, 11:33:56 AM »

Quote from: juntjoo on December 30, 2020, 10:38:19 AM

Quote from: Bodi on December 30, 2020, 09:43:48 AM
All you need is a multimeter with 20A DC range, 10A may be enough. Connect it between the battery and where the harness connects - NOT including the starter motor. This is a wire to the battery on some bikes, to the solenoid input stud on others.
Use a low current range to test for parasitic load with key off. The 10 or 20A scale will indicate your charge or discharge current.
Starter current should be done with a shunt, a very low value high current resistor. Bought ones usually give 50mV at rated current but it isn't hard to make and calibrate on at home, if you're careful with electricity.

Thanks. I think you mean "ammeter" right? I'd have gotten a "multimeter" if it had a current function but didn't look like any of them do. Unless it's got the clip at the top. Please don't tell me my nice automotive multimeter has some way of measuring current

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000KIMHRQ/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_tHm7Fb1FPWWZJ?psc=1

I'm sure it doesn't. But I miss a lot of stuff. Anyway, once 8 get my ammeter I'll be going step by step through the book and refer back to your suggestions...

The multimeter you linked to measures up to 15A DC, read the users guide https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/B148iO5P-yS.pdf

juntjoo · « **Reply #119 on:** December 30, 2020, 12:39:38 PM »

Quote from: PeWe on December 30, 2020, 11:09:35 AM

I bought a cheap auto multimeter that handles 20A DC which can be needed.

It has also Dwell function which is very useful when adjusting ignition points gap.

This handle only 10A DC
There are similar supporting 20A DC
https://www.harborfreight.com/lcd-automotive-multimeter-with-tachometer-kit-95670.html

Auto Multimeter or Multimeter for car is the thing....

Am I missing something? I'm looking for an "ammeter" to test current. I don't think the one you referenced does that. Besides I've got this bad boy:

https://www.innova.com/product/detail/3340/Automotive-DMM#keyFeaturesSection

This one's a good "automotive multimeter" no?

But neither of these test DC current right? And I need that to test my charging system as outlined in the pic correct?

I'm looking at either this one:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0721MKXBC/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_wxo7FbV4NR1FZ?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

Or this be with higher resolution at 6k:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07Z398YWF/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_Vyo7Fb61XA5SA?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

Is 6k resolution with the extra cost?

juntjoo · « **Reply #120 on:** December 30, 2020, 12:46:09 PM »

Quote from: robvangulik on December 30, 2020, 11:33:56 AM

Quote from: juntjoo on December 30, 2020, 10:38:19 AM
Quote from: Bodi on December 30, 2020, 09:43:48 AM
All you need is a multimeter with 20A DC range, 10A may be enough. Connect it between the battery and where the harness connects - NOT including the starter motor. This is a wire to the battery on some bikes, to the solenoid input stud on others.
Use a low current range to test for parasitic load with key off. The 10 or 20A scale will indicate your charge or discharge current.
Starter current should be done with a shunt, a very low value high current resistor. Bought ones usually give 50mV at rated current but it isn't hard to make and calibrate on at home, if you're careful with electricity.

Thanks. I think you mean "ammeter" right? I'd have gotten a "multimeter" if it had a current function but didn't look like any of them do. Unless it's got the clip at the top. Please don't tell me my nice automotive multimeter has some way of measuring current

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000KIMHRQ/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_tHm7Fb1FPWWZJ?psc=1

I'm sure it doesn't. But I miss a lot of stuff. Anyway, once 8 get my ammeter I'll be going step by step through the book and refer back to your suggestions...
The multimeter you linked to measures up to 15A DC, read the users guide https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/B148iO5P-yS.pdf

Holy f*** really?? Well that's great news then! I had no idea. Lemme double check. I just read the product description and didn't see that mentioned. I got the manual, one sec...

No.. I totally missed it, or I mis-learned to think an ammeter had to have the clip at the top. Thanks for clarification. Great news and I love my $100 investment even more.

juntjoo · « **Reply #121 on:** January 01, 2021, 08:19:18 PM »

I think I need a new rectifier. I'm only getting 12 volts at 5k rpms.

In the video comments I added the below time stamps you can easily click to jump through the vid if you want to check. Otherwise this here sums it up:

2:00 I test the stator. Between all combos of the yellow wires I get about 6ohms.

4:36 I start testing the rectifier. Looks good.

7:00 I don't know what my nice digital meter means with "k" or "m". I'm assuming a thousand and a million ohms and if that's right then it's bad.

8:02 5 million ohms between red lead and all the yellow ones?

8:50 Is 0 on the digital "infinite" "continuity"?

9:13 thousands of ohms?

11:00 more thousands of ohms.

11:45 millions of ohms?

12:24 using my little analog meter. Looks within spec for the most part

13:23 what is an ohmeter with a "positive ground"? Just switched leads? I get the same reading with the analog however I have the test leads inserted.

14:37 except here looks like my ohm'age is a bit high

15:40 looks good on analog but then switching back to digital I'm back to thousands of ohms

16:30 looks good.

17:05 looks good

Bad rectifier? I can try a $30 one off Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KOLB4DW/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_L9-7Fb6W6NJQW?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

Use it for whatever warranty it's worth and if it's not good I should know how to test these things better next time and get a better one or based on your experiences should I just invest in one of these $100 "Rick's" or "Randakk's" ones?

https://cognitomoto.com/products/ricks-regulator-rectifier-combo-cb650-rectifier-regulator

https://www.randakks.com/regulator-rectifier-cb650sc-cb700sc.html

Though i don't know if I'm willing at this point to shell out $140 for one of these.

Alan F. · « **Reply #122 on:** January 01, 2021, 09:12:28 PM »

The function of a rectifier is not to regulate a DC voltage, but to modify an AC sine wave into a DC pulse.

I think you should swap your meters leads back to red for positive and black for negative and try measuring it all again. It'll make a difference in your readings.

I haven't determined just why you swapped meter leads but please swap them back and measure again.

juntjoo · « **Reply #123 on:** January 01, 2021, 10:00:54 PM »

Quote from: Alan F. on January 01, 2021, 09:12:28 PM

The function of a rectifier is not to regulate a DC voltage, but to modify an AC sine wave into a DC pulse.

I think you should swap your meters leads back to red for positive and black for negative and try measuring it all again. It'll make a difference in your readings.

I haven't determined just why you swapped meter leads but please swap them back and measure again.

This is why. Whatever you're saying about the function of this part means nothing to me as I'm just following the instructions of the book and I'm not very familiar with this stuff, BTW.

Alan F. · « **Reply #124 on:** January 01, 2021, 11:31:02 PM »

It does matter how you do it. Don't disconnect and swap your meter leads. That results in reverse polarity in the circuit your ohm meter is supplying dc voltage to to test the diodes in your rectifier circuit.

I'm sorry that I can't explain it any better than that.

If you follow the manual to the best of your ability and still read thousands of ohms where the manual states that you should be reading fifty ohms, perhaps this indicates a failed piece of electronics that cannot be repaired and must be replaced.

I hope this helps, but I think I'll keep my suggestions to myself if it doesn't make a difference for you.

(300 rear tire anyone)

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Author Topic: What's the most common cause of a weak starter? (Read 10935 times)