Author Topic: 350f Cam chain guide install Q  (Read 1598 times)

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Offline klp

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350f Cam chain guide install Q
« on: December 21, 2020, 05:59:44 AM »
OK, let me start by saying I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous.  I have owned my 350 for 7 years or so and it runs great. I took the head off to fix the left front oil leak.

I think where I went wrong was I installed the head before the cam chain guides. The front one went in fine, the rear seemed ok but when I went to install the retainer cap it became clear it wasn't ok. I fiddled with it a bit but then it made the chain drum tight.

Question is, are they supposed to go in before the head?

My second dilemma is this. When I realized something was not right I removed the head but because I used copper coat the head and cylinder came up in one shot which allowed a bunch of crud that was in the stud holes to run down onto the cylinder base. I didn't want to disturb the cylinders as there was no leak there and I fear getting all the pistons in without breaking a ring.

At this point I think it is the only way to go, new base gasket, order a new head gasket and move on with my life. Are there any tricks to setting the cylinders down successfully? I have read the manual but I don't have the special tool it references. Is there any way to work around this? I have a ring compressor but I don't think it will work here.

Sorry for the long post, I am pretty frustrated - everything was going well and I was about ready to test run the bike.

Offline Bodi

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Re: 350f Cam chain guide install Q
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2020, 07:04:11 AM »
The tensioner blade goes in through the head. It's fiddly and frustrating, more so if the engine is in frame meaning looking down the tunnel is far from easy. Best done with the chain off.
First the tensioner should be released. Pretty easy with barrels off, harder with them on. Loosen the adjuster lock bolt, push down on the lower tensioner socket - it will move freely (against the springs) unless the horseshoe is buggered, tighten the lock bolt with it pushed down. Be gentle with that bolt though! It is not the 8mm it seems, only a 6mm where it screws in.
Make sure the rubber(?) socket things are in correctly. Thin side goes away from the chain. This is going to be tough for the bottom one if it came loose, you can barely see it but it can be set in place by sticking it to the blade with grease and fishing it down the tunnel. The upper retainer will go on fairly easily with adjuster loosened but obviously the blade will have to flex a fair bit it that isn't done.  Since your barrels are raised anyway maybe you can see the lower blade socket to check the black thing is in OK?

A new base gasket is advisable but you could clean it as well as possible and maybe add a bit of Hylomar or whatever (NOT silicon or that Permatex black stuff), hoping for the best.

Reinserting the pistons is actually rather easy. Put a pair at TDC, align the ring gaps to not align with each other, not in line with the pin, not perpendicular to the crank. Gently slip the barrels down while working the top rings in with your fingers: there's a nice internal taper in the bore that will get the rings in if you can push them in enough to enter the tapered end. The barrel section will rock enough to work on one piston then the other one ring at a time. Once all the rings on that pair are in, carefully turn the crank while walking the barrels down until the other pair comes up to their bores. Repeat the insertion process... not as much room for the fingers but you've just had some practice so it should go OK. Doing 2-3 first gives more finger access at 1-4 for the second set.
If this is not working for you, properly sized gear clamps make reasonable McGuyver ring compressors. Don't tighten them beyond where the rings enter those tapers, and coat them with oil. Same process of doing one pair then the other, trying all four at once will just drive you mad.

Be aware that current asbestos free head gaskets are thicker than the OEM factory installed one. This makes the barely functional "orifice control valve" seals even less capable of stopping the head gasket outer end oil leaks - almost guaranteed to leak if stock seals are used with a new head gasket.

Download the service manual. The online scans are not excellent but better than nothing. The Haynes type books have some better pictures but you should have the real manual as well.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2020, 06:27:14 PM by Bodi »

Offline klp

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Re: 350f Cam chain guide install Q
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2020, 09:56:30 AM »
OK thanks. In hindsight I probably could have fished it down there and called it a day. Such is life. I don't want to start another thread on what gasket to use - I read through all the threads and decided to use a generic kit with copper coat. I used the o rings that came with it - they looked ok.

I am open to suggestions and sources for oem gaskets and the o rings as well. I got some time to kill cleaning the base gasket.

Any tips on cleaning carbon off the pistons?

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 350f Cam chain guide install Q
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2020, 06:16:51 PM »
Well, I'll put it out there for 'the record' for the CB350F/400F....

To prevent oil leaks from the oil jet orifices with the modern, thicker, head gaskets, the only ture fix I have found is to deck (flat-grind) the top of the cylinder deck by 0.010". There is no 'thicker' or 'taller' oil seal that I have found that will work to prevent the leaks, Milling the deck by this much is the difference between the OEM and modern head gaskets (about 0.008"-0.010" typically).
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Offline vames

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Re: 350f Cam chain guide install Q
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2020, 03:37:58 PM »
Well, I'll put it out there for 'the record' for the CB350F/400F....

To prevent oil leaks from the oil jet orifices with the modern, thicker, head gaskets, the only ture fix I have found is to deck (flat-grind) the top of the cylinder deck by 0.010". There is no 'thicker' or 'taller' oil seal that I have found that will work to prevent the leaks, Milling the deck by this much is the difference between the OEM and modern head gaskets (about 0.008"-0.010" typically).

Hondaman - It's amazing that you answered a question that I asked in a different thread on the same day I posted it. http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,185402.0.html I don't mean to hijack this thread, but can I have that 0.01" taken off of the head rather than the cylinders? I don't plan on taking the cylinders off if I don't have to. It runs great - I just want to fix the *%$^ oil leak.

Offline robvangulik

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Re: 350f Cam chain guide install Q
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2020, 03:26:11 AM »
Like I said in that other thread, you'll get a new leak in return if you do that. When you take the head off a new bottom gasket is needed as well, for it WILL fail if you leave it, the pressure has been off.

Offline jonda500

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Re: 350f Cam chain guide install Q
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2020, 12:29:19 AM »
there is very little oil pressure around the cylinder base gasket so leaks there are minor if at all...
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Offline bryanj

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Re: 350f Cam chain guide install Q
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2020, 12:38:01 AM »
 There is where the cam feed goes up
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Offline klp

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Re: 350f Cam chain guide install Q
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2020, 04:43:25 AM »
Thanks to all for your input. I am keeping busy cleaning the base gasket - not a lot of joy from the Permatex gasket remover. Oven clean seems to work just as well.

Hondaman - would you be willing to share the thickness of a new OEM base gasket? Mine as near as I can tell is a bit over 1mm  but it has been crushed for a lot of years.

I found a NOS gasket kit on Ebay, not OEM but I am hoping because it is older maybe it more closely matches the original thickness. If not I will likely get some machining done - it would be nice to not go back in there after all this effort.

Thanks!

Offline klp

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Re: 350f Cam chain guide install Q
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2021, 05:15:03 AM »
Happy New Year.

My gasket therapy is still progressing - so far no fatal surface scrapes. I got the NOS gasket kit, the head gasket is decent quality but about the same thickness as the other one I had. 1.2 mm or so.

I am leaning towards cleaning up the OEM gasket, copper coating it and re installing. It looks to be in good shape, came out without any damage. My leak was left front corner - that o ring was perished.

Offline bryanj

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Re: 350f Cam chain guide install Q
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2021, 05:44:29 AM »
Personal opinion but i would never reuse a gasket that has seen heat cycles no matter how good it looked
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Offline klp

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Re: 350f Cam chain guide install Q
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2021, 03:13:19 AM »
Thanks Bryan.

I had not considered heat cycles, my thinking was more around crushing the gasket. There is definitely no more 'give' left in the original part.

I still have some more scraping to do - I am not sure which way to go. The original gasket measures about 1mm. The NOS aftermarket one I just got is 1.2mm. The other aftermarket one that was installed for a couple days is at 1.14.


Offline bryanj

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Re: 350f Cam chain guide install Q
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2021, 06:16:15 AM »
I would reach out to Hondaman via pm as he is the man who has done the O ring reasearch. He is a busy man so wait for an answer
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

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Offline klp

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Re: 350f Cam chain guide install Q
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2021, 06:09:20 AM »
Good call, to be honest I don't want to bother him. He already weighed in here, looks like machining the cylinder is the best way to go. Thanks!

Offline klp

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Re: 350f Cam chain guide install Q
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2021, 02:34:05 PM »
Ok I have got everything cleaned up and ready for install. Can someone provide me with some more detail on how to get the pistons nestled into their bores?

I spent about an hour fiddling about and didn't get too far. No broken rings thankfully.

The best I did was with the two center pistons on the way up, gently rocking them and allowing the weight of the barrels to provide downward force. I used the bolt by the points to slowly bring the pistons up.

This only got me the first rings on both pistons, just didn't go well.

Couple questions for the masses. Did I have the pistons phased right for success? Do you allow the barrel weight to press down or does it need to be supported somehow? Finally, the taper is such that when the rings reach it they are in effect already in the liners. How to you get access to them to help squeeze them in?

Thank you, with any luck I will be test running the bike before this week ends.

Offline klp

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Re: 350f Cam chain guide install Q
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2021, 04:06:27 PM »
Well I was able to get it done. Middle two cylinders anyhow. I used a hose clamp with a layer of plastic inside to prevent scratches. Worked great.

The outer cylinders will be tricky as in order to get them high enough you risk running the middle ones out of the bores. I will figure it out. Happy to have some success, soon it'll be running again!