Author Topic: The only thing SCREAMING now is the bike on the highway!  (Read 16560 times)

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: No guts; I could SCREAM!
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2007, 06:35:55 PM »
Could be you're ready to scream because of excessive flail.
You're getting some good input from the forum.  But, it is up to you to organize into a plan of attack.  I prefer the methodical approach when symptoms don't point directly to the offending critter.
If you don't know what IS the problem, begin by verifying what is NOT the problem.

I suggest:
1- Redo the standard tuneup procedure, to isolate and eliminate those items as variables.
2- Check timing advance
3- Clean, re-oil the filter making sure you don't over oil it to create a rich condition with too much restriction.

All these things must be nailed before dealing with any carb mixture issue.

FWIW
Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline medic09

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Re: No guts; I could SCREAM!
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2007, 06:41:36 PM »
Could be you're ready to scream because of excessive flail.
You're getting some good input from the forum.  But, it is up to you to organize into a plan of attack.  I prefer the methodical approach when symptoms don't point directly to the offending critter.
If you don't know what IS the problem, begin by verifying what is NOT the problem.

I suggest:
1- Redo the standard tuneup procedure, to isolate and eliminate those items as variables.
2- Check timing advance
3- Clean, re-oil the filter making sure you don't over oil it to create a rich condition with too much restriction.

All these things must be nailed before dealing with any carb mixture issue.

FWIW
Cheers,

It's worth plenty.  An orderly differential diagnosis is what I need.  And you're right, I'm letting myself get P*ssed Off, instead of going about isolating and solving the problem(s).
Mordechai

'78 CB750K
'76 Triumph T160 Trident (rebuilding)
'07 aprilia Caponord

Santa Fe, NM

eldar

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Re: No guts; I could SCREAM!
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2007, 07:41:03 PM »
Have you laid the spark plugs on the engine and checked your spark? Turn off your fuel when you do this though!  You should at least get a blue spark, it may be faint though. do it in a shaded or dark area, it will be almost impossible to see in the sun.

Offline mrbreeze

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Re: No guts; I could SCREAM!
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2007, 07:41:37 PM »
I have been kicking this around in my head today and have another sugestion. When I was just bringing mine  back to life and was having problems...Cben suggested that my fuel filter was too small and it was starving for gas at high speeds. I took the filter off (still running the sock in the tank) and it improved but not 100%. Thats when I measured the fuel in my bowls and found #3 lower than the others. The others were spot on to each other. I dropped bowl #3 and bent the float until it had a level of fuel even with the others. Problem solved....case dismissed!!!! The way I did mine was to turn the gas on for a few minutes (to fill the bowls). Turn the gas off and drain the #1 bowl into a babyfood jar. Mark the level on the side of the jar and dump the gas back into the tank. Go through each carb and make sure each one hits the mark. With 3 on the money and one low.....make the low one match the other 3. That proved to me that you can't always depend on float height measurement alone. Hope you nail the culprit soon.
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Offline medic09

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Re: No guts; I could SCREAM!
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2007, 07:52:32 PM »
I have been kicking this around in my head today and have another sugestion. When I was just bringing mine  back to life and was having problems...Cben suggested that my fuel filter was too small and it was starving for gas at high speeds. I took the filter off (still running the sock in the tank) and it improved but not 100%. Thats when I measured the fuel in my bowls and found #3 lower than the others. The others were spot on to each other. I dropped bowl #3 and bent the float until it had a level of fuel even with the others. Problem solved....case dismissed!!!! The way I did mine was to turn the gas on for a few minutes (to fill the bowls). Turn the gas off and drain the #1 bowl into a babyfood jar. Mark the level on the side of the jar and dump the gas back into the tank. Go through each carb and make sure each one hits the mark. With 3 on the money and one low.....make the low one match the other 3. That proved to me that you can't always depend on float height measurement alone. Hope you nail the culprit soon.

Thanks for the encouragement AND a good idea!  I was wondering how I was going to check the float levels...
Mordechai

'78 CB750K
'76 Triumph T160 Trident (rebuilding)
'07 aprilia Caponord

Santa Fe, NM

Offline medic09

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Re: No guts; I could SCREAM!
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2007, 01:40:33 PM »
Okay, started a methodical assessment today, in between school work (yeah, right!).

Pulled the plugs.  I was amazed that they don't appear as 'rich' as I recall from last fall.  I have D8EAs installed.  There's just a very little bit of carbon on the plugs.  Not enough to call them fouled, for sure.  The ceramic posts are all white, except #2 has more of a tan appearance. 

I checked spark.  Here's where I need help.  I get a blue-white spark.  Clymer's says there should be a "fat blue spark".  I would not call this "fat".  Spark was easy to see on all plugs; sort of  danced around on 1 and 2.  I tightened the caps on the wires, and the spark stabilized.  Still a small blue-white spark, not "fat blue spark".  So, are they okay or not? (I realize that's hard to judge without actually seeing it.)  How literally do I take the Clymer's?

That's all I've done for the moment.  Had to ride my 'little' Yamaha to my dentist's appt.  Glorious day to ride.  Sunny, fairly warm, with a strong breeze blowing.  I was sorry to come home (the long way back, of course) and get to work.

I appreciate the help.  Thanks all!
Mordechai

'78 CB750K
'76 Triumph T160 Trident (rebuilding)
'07 aprilia Caponord

Santa Fe, NM

eldar

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Re: No guts; I could SCREAM!
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2007, 02:25:44 PM »
Well "fat" is subjective. You saw it easily which is usually a good sign. If you have not done so, pull off the caps and snip about 1/4 inch off the wires and put the caps back on. See if this helps, it usually does with these old coils.
But blue spark is good. The white though might be part of your issue. These bikes do run lean but #2 is about correct I am guessing since I cant see the plug.

Try riding with your choke pulled some and see what happens. 

Offline medic09

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Re: No guts; I could SCREAM!
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2007, 03:14:52 PM »
As long as I'm ruling out ignition stuff, do the condensors play any role in this?  I replaced the contact breakers/points when I did the timing last fall, but not the condensors.  I have no idea when they're from.
Mordechai

'78 CB750K
'76 Triumph T160 Trident (rebuilding)
'07 aprilia Caponord

Santa Fe, NM

Offline TwoTired

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Re: No guts; I could SCREAM!
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2007, 03:35:51 PM »
The spark that is visible is the atmospheric gasses ionizing and turning into a plasma conduit.  The color and width of the spark is rather dependent on the composition of the atmosphere where you are, the humidity, and any impurities found in the air at your locale.

I'd say a blue-white spark is good and be wary of a yellow-orange one.

Do examine the plug wire end where it screws onto the boot post. If it is clean and tight, and you can see the wire center is in good condition and making good contact with the post screw, reassemble and move on to other issues.  If the end looks bored out or there is goo on the mating interface, then you have had poor contact there and the arcing has caused the insulation to break down.  Remove as much off the end of the wire to get to good solid wire and insulation, then screw the boot back on tightly.

For reading plugs you might look at : http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Plugs/Spark_Plugs_catalog.html

The outer base ring should always become black with use in these engines.  The cylinder head mass is wicking away heat from the combustion chamber and the close contact with the plug means the fuel deposits can't maintain burn-off temps at the base ring.  The center electrode insulator is the key.  White usually means no deposits and a very hot, probably lean, mixture.  Be wary of this as if you see signs of melted electrode metal, you are getting close to destructive detonation, and the aluminum pistons melt at a lower temperature than steel.  Tan is a good color and you should see a gradient darkening of deposits on the insulator as you move away from the electrode tip down into the recess of the plug body.  The bottom of the spark plug insulator well should be nearly as dark with carbon as the base ring, as the flame front will cool as it nears the outer boundaries of the combustion chamber.

Since your spark plug appearance is different on cylinder two, I will ask if the carbs have been vacuum synched.  It is an interesting observation #2 is the only slide not adjustable.  The other cylinder's carbs do have synchronizing adjustments for the slides.

Before you synchronize carbs, do check your valve tappet clearances and cam chain tension.
Points condition and gap is also on the list of to-check items.

Did you tell us about your exhaust?  Stock?  Non-stock and foam air filter may make this bike run too lean.  You may have to go up a main jet size and shim the slide needle to richen up the midrange throttle settings.  Partial choke may help with midrange throttle mixtures.  But, the blocking of the intakes with the choke butterfly will reduce WOT power.  Any chance you could try a paper filter element?  A dirty one especially, should make the entire throttle range richer, including WOT.  These would be diagnostic tools to give you confidence about Carb adjustments for the intake and exhaust components you've chosen.

The condensers role is to help reduce point contact arcing and pitting.  How do the points look?

Cheers,


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline medic09

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Re: No guts; I could SCREAM!
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2007, 04:16:16 PM »
Lloyd,  I first have to tell you that I really appreciate the education you provide alongside practical advice.  I have altogether come to appreciate physics ("all science is physics") a whole lot more since I started working on my motorcycle.  I have a whole new respect for engineering.  Keep it coming!

1.  Considering the altitude among other factors, I'll settle for a noticeable blue-white spark for now.  I'm not going the gas spectrometry route... :)

2.  I went ahead and trimmed all the plug wires.  I don't see much change in the spark, though.

3.  The outer base rings were exactly as you described.  The center insulators were, as I noted, largely clean except for #2 which was a little tanned.  There was just the least little bit of carbon deposits on the center posts on all plugs.

4.  I had adjusted valve clearances and cam chain tension before synching the carbs.  I synched them pretty closely using a Carbtune.  This is the first time I've done any of this, so there is some possibility for error.  Still, I checked pretty carefully before moving on.  I replaced points just a few months back when I did timing.  They're still in pretty good shape.

5.  All I know about my exhaust is it's non-stock.  2 into 2.  Airbox is stock, with an oiled, reusable (imitation K&N) element.

The bike is very hard to get started.  Multiple attempts required.  Once running, it doesn't like the choke.  So, I should look for a dirty filter element, eh?  Interesting idea...
Mordechai

'78 CB750K
'76 Triumph T160 Trident (rebuilding)
'07 aprilia Caponord

Santa Fe, NM

Offline TwoTired

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Re: No guts; I could SCREAM!
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2007, 06:10:46 PM »
The bike is very hard to get started. Multiple attempts required. Once running, it doesn't like the choke.
If your bike is lean even with choke, and you have accelerator pump carbs, you could apply choke and give a twist or two of the throttle grip to give it extra gas in the runner before hitting the starter button.  Might make starting a bit easier.  Just a thought...

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline medic09

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Re: No guts; I could SCREAM!
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2007, 06:14:32 PM »
The bike is very hard to get started. Multiple attempts required. Once running, it doesn't like the choke.
If your bike is lean even with choke, and you have accelerator pump carbs, you could apply choke and give a twist or two of the throttle grip to give it extra gas in the runner before hitting the starter button.  Might make starting a bit easier.  Just a thought...



In Hebrew we would say "How fortunate/blessed I am that I intended the same as a great mind" (loose translation).  That's precisely what I've been doing; yet even that doesn't make for easy starting.

Edit:  Actually, I can't the bike to start at all this evening.  It 'rumbles' like it's beginning to kick over, but it never catches enough to sustain itself.  Does that make sense?  Before I started working on it (and apparently mucking things up for now) it was similar, but it would catch and then I'd have to run it with throttle around 2000 rpm till it warmed up.  Now, I can't get to that point...   :(
« Last Edit: February 21, 2007, 06:36:39 PM by medic09 »
Mordechai

'78 CB750K
'76 Triumph T160 Trident (rebuilding)
'07 aprilia Caponord

Santa Fe, NM

Offline TwoTired

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Re: No guts; I could SCREAM!
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2007, 06:31:35 PM »
TwoTired:  How much does syncronization actually effect air/fuel mixture, in fact, how does it?  Clearly the air filter type, exhuast type, jet size, mixture screw setting, needle position/taper, carb throat diameter, float hight and slide cutaway will change the mixture, but provided those items are correct, wouldnt the slide hight in each carb only change the rate of delivery of the properly mixed air/fuel to its relative cylinder?  What am I missing?

Let's assume that each cylinder has the same volumetric efficiency.  It should, anyway.  All the cylinders are linked to a common crankshaft.  This means each cylinder will draw the same amount/volume of air during it's intake cycle.  The restriction offered by the slide opening size will then determine depth of vacuum on a per runner or per carb throat are basis.  Slides that are less open will have a deeper vacuum.  The fuel metering jets in the carb, flow fuel based on the differential pressure present on each side of the jet orifice.  All the carbs should have a common atmospheric pressure present on the surface of the fuel in the bowls pushing on the inlet side of the jets.  If more vacuum is present on any carb relative to the others, it will draw more fuel for the same amount of air gulped equally by all cylinders, making those cylinders run richer.

Does this explain it adequately?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: No guts; I could SCREAM!
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2007, 06:41:46 PM »
The bike is very hard to get started. Multiple attempts required. Once running, it doesn't like the choke.
If your bike is lean even with choke, and you have accelerator pump carbs, you could apply choke and give a twist or two of the throttle grip to give it extra gas in the runner before hitting the starter button.  Might make starting a bit easier.  Just a thought...



In Hebrew we would say "How fortunate/blessed I am that I intended the same as a great mind" (loose translation).  That's precisely what I've been doing; yet even that doesn't make for easy starting.

Then I would carefully examine the choke linkage to verify that full choke application closes each and every choke butterfly fully.
I don't recall the fast idle cam specifics for these carbs.  And, I'm too lazy to go out to the bike and verify.  But, if the fast idle cam is "notchy" it might stop the choke knob travel before full actuation as it rides up the ramp.  See if you get more choke knob travel when the throttle is already opened, say, midway.


 ;D Are you claiming the phrase "great minds think alike" was of Hebrew origin?"   ;D ;D

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline medic09

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Re: No guts; I could SCREAM!
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2007, 06:56:31 PM »
The bike is very hard to get started. Multiple attempts required. Once running, it doesn't like the choke.
If your bike is lean even with choke, and you have accelerator pump carbs, you could apply choke and give a twist or two of the throttle grip to give it extra gas in the runner before hitting the starter button.  Might make starting a bit easier.  Just a thought...



In Hebrew we would say "How fortunate/blessed I am that I intended the same as a great mind" (loose translation).  That's precisely what I've been doing; yet even that doesn't make for easy starting.

Then I would carefully examine the choke linkage to verify that full choke application closes each and every choke butterfly fully.
I don't recall the fast idle cam specifics for these carbs.  And, I'm too lazy to go out to the bike and verify.  But, if the fast idle cam is "notchy" it might stop the choke knob travel before full actuation as it rides up the ramp.  See if you get more choke knob travel when the throttle is already opened, say, midway.


 ;D Are you claiming the phrase "great minds think alike" was of Hebrew origin?"   ;D ;D

Cheers,

No, I'm saying that I, of a lesser mind, was fortunate to have thought in the same manner/direction as a greater mind.   ;D

Funny you should raise the issue of the choke linkage.  I have to almost force it to get the knob up all the way.  Apparently it is catching on something.  The choke linkage hits on the throttle linkage rod (?) right where there's a securing nut, on it's way up.  I don't think it's making it all the way up.

Now how did I do that?   ???
Mordechai

'78 CB750K
'76 Triumph T160 Trident (rebuilding)
'07 aprilia Caponord

Santa Fe, NM

Offline mrbreeze

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Re: No guts; I could SCREAM!
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2007, 07:05:32 PM »
Gotta love them pre-77 chokes!!!! :D
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Offline medic09

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Re: No guts; I could SCREAM!
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2007, 07:07:59 PM »
Gotta love them pre-77 chokes!!!! :D

This one's a 78.  I'll have to figure out what I did to mess it up.
Mordechai

'78 CB750K
'76 Triumph T160 Trident (rebuilding)
'07 aprilia Caponord

Santa Fe, NM

Offline mrbreeze

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Re: No guts; I could SCREAM!
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2007, 07:18:21 PM »
Thats what I mean.....gotta love the older ones....no cable...no fast idle cam. Just choke it...it starts...open it a bit..alot less hassle.
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Offline medic09

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Re: No guts; I could SCREAM!
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2007, 07:54:46 PM »
Thats what I mean.....gotta love the older ones....no cable...no fast idle cam. Just choke it...it starts...open it a bit..alot less hassle.

Now I see what you mean.  I don't mind reaching under the tank to flip the choke lever.  It works on my other ride...
Mordechai

'78 CB750K
'76 Triumph T160 Trident (rebuilding)
'07 aprilia Caponord

Santa Fe, NM

eldar

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Re: No guts; I could SCREAM!
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2007, 07:57:27 PM »
Well if you go by the outdated plug chart, your plugs should ideally look like 19 or 20. Reason I say this is outdated is that it was from 77. Sure correct era for our bikes but NOT spark plugs. But then that list was talked about around a year ago with many of us here not really trusting what it says anymore given 30 years of changes.

Well your spark should be ok then so I would move on.

Try this, start the bike and let it idle for a while and shut it off and look at the plugs. Do you need choke to start or while the bike is warming up?  It is entirely possible you are running rich at start up and then lean as you hit the mains, not common but possible.

Where is your choke mounted?

Offline kghost

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Re: No guts; I could SCREAM!
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2007, 09:22:58 PM »
I would guess you have a choke issue coupled with a float height issue.

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: No guts; I could SCREAM!
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2007, 11:34:23 PM »
I would guess you have a choke issue coupled with a float height issue.

I agree.
Since you've already vacuum balanced, float height/fuel-in-the-bowl level differences could easily account for the different spark plug deposits.

Carefully measure number 2 and make the others the same.  If you don't get all four plugs equally tan, then look for the next issue.  Perhaps dissimilar parts in the carbs?

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline medic09

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Re: No guts; I could SCREAM!
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2007, 07:08:31 AM »
I would guess you have a choke issue coupled with a float height issue.

I agree.
Since you've already vacuum balanced, float height/fuel-in-the-bowl level differences could easily account for the different spark plug deposits.

Carefully measure number 2 and make the others the same.  If you don't get all four plugs equally tan, then look for the next issue.  Perhaps dissimilar parts in the carbs?

Cheers,

I used Keyster carb kits for all four carbs, so parts *should* be similar.  I'll pull the carbs in the next few days and check the floats.  Of course, right now I can't even start it, so it'll be a little hard to check plug color...  :(
Mordechai

'78 CB750K
'76 Triumph T160 Trident (rebuilding)
'07 aprilia Caponord

Santa Fe, NM

Offline medic09

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Re: No guts; I could SCREAM!
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2007, 07:30:06 AM »
Okay, I decided to drain the carbs to start, and measure what I got.  I drained one at a time into a tuna can, and measured with a syringe.

 :o

#1     42cc, drained freely
#2     0 cc
#3     0 cc, with some seepage around the drain screw.
#4     39cc, drained freely

(and the little o-rings around the screws are trashed on some; how did that happen?)

All four cylinders ran (judging by hot pipes) when I had the bike out the other day.

Now what the hell is going on here?

 :o >:( ???
Mordechai

'78 CB750K
'76 Triumph T160 Trident (rebuilding)
'07 aprilia Caponord

Santa Fe, NM

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: No guts; I could SCREAM!
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2007, 07:47:04 AM »
Just a thought, did you drain them right after running it when all four were hot? It would seem, because they were all hot, they were getting fuel. On the other hand, if you drained them, say the next day after running it, did you find any fuel residue on the engine case or starter cover beneath the carbs. Maybe #2 had more of a leak at the drain screw and it all drained out whereas #3 wasn't as bad so some was still left.
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