Author Topic: Difference between 77-78 and previous 750's? (K)  (Read 2949 times)

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Offline dougan

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Difference between 77-78 and previous 750's? (K)
« on: September 20, 2012, 10:17:32 AM »
I have a 350 four and i absolutely love it, but I don't really feel that it's up to long distance travel, so I've been casually looking at getting something bigger.

I found a 77 750 on Craigslist that's in pretty good-looking, clean, shape.  36,000 miles on it, looks mostly stock except for the paint job, which is still nice, and the seat and exhaust.  He said that it needs to be choked a bit for it to run best but I'm guessing a good carb tuning/rebuild would be all that's in order there.  He says it's good enough to ride around so I'm doubting there's much for big problems there.

The only thing I don't like is the exhaust, it's a 4 into 2 that has the outward bend at the end of the muffler.  I see there's a 4 into 2 sold here http://www.cb750supply.com/products/7/exhaust and I am familiar w/ the 4 into 1 MAC if I would have to go that route.

But, that link above has different models for the 77/78 and previous models.  I know that the later years of the SOHC ones are less desireable, but I always figured that was just them being more collectible.  Is there any big differences here that I'm missing?

He's asking 1500 for it, and I'm hoping I can get him further down on that because I don't really care to pay nearly that much for it.
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Offline flybox1

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Re: Difference between 77-78 and previous 750's? (K)
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2012, 10:56:17 AM »
I too had a 350F and sold it for something better suited for me.
I have a 78K and i like the PD carbs with the fast idle cam and accel pump. 
got mine as a titled non runner for $700

plan on dropping another $1000 on 'stuff' for it and its complete tuneup.
carb rebuild kits, mc and front caliper rebuilds, pads for front and rear, front fork refresh, wheel bearings, exhaust, cleaning supplies, maybe new tires and tubes....easily $1000.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
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Offline lucky

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Re: Difference between 77-78 and previous 750's? (K)
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2012, 09:38:04 PM »
I have a 350 four and i absolutely love it, but I don't really feel that it's up to long distance travel, so I've been casually looking at getting something bigger.

I found a 77 750 on Craigslist that's in pretty good-looking, clean, shape.  36,000 miles on it, looks mostly stock except for the paint job, which is still nice, and the seat and exhaust.  He said that it needs to be choked a bit for it to run best but I'm guessing a good carb tuning/rebuild would be all that's in order there.  He says it's good enough to ride around so I'm doubting there's much for big problems there.

The only thing I don't like is the exhaust, it's a 4 into 2 that has the outward bend at the end of the muffler.  I see there's a 4 into 2 sold here http://www.cb750supply.com/products/7/exhaust and I am familiar w/ the 4 into 1 MAC if I would have to go that route.

But, that link above has different models for the 77/78 and previous models.  I know that the later years of the SOHC ones are less desireable, but I always figured that was just them being more collectible.  Is there any big differences here that I'm missing?

He's asking 1500 for it, and I'm hoping I can get him further down on that because I don't really care to pay nearly that much for it.

The 1977-78 models are more desireable in many ways.
The engine had more improvements than all of the other CB750's.
I think the 77 may have even had adjustable slide needles but the 78 did not.

The engine had a higher 4th and 5th gear ratio.
More fins on the engine.
Larger fins on the oil filter housing.
Larger valves.
Wider cam chain tower.
Better oil drain down system.
Larger cylinder head studs.
Thicker engine cases in the chain area.
Other things also.
The swing arm is longer than all of the other models.
The gas tank could hold 4.76 gallons of fuel.



If the air filter is not stock and the exhaust is not stock you probably will need to rejet. drop the clip on the needle down two notches. Put in a #120 main jet, and a #42 idle jet. 3/4 out on the mixture screw.


« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 09:40:41 PM by lucky »

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Difference between 77-78 and previous 750's? (K)
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2012, 10:05:22 PM »
I have a 350 four and i absolutely love it, but I don't really feel that it's up to long distance travel, so I've been casually looking at getting something bigger.

I found a 77 750 on Craigslist that's in pretty good-looking, clean, shape.  36,000 miles on it, looks mostly stock except for the paint job, which is still nice, and the seat and exhaust.  He said that it needs to be choked a bit for it to run best but I'm guessing a good carb tuning/rebuild would be all that's in order there.  He says it's good enough to ride around so I'm doubting there's much for big problems there.

The only thing I don't like is the exhaust, it's a 4 into 2 that has the outward bend at the end of the muffler.  I see there's a 4 into 2 sold here http://www.cb750supply.com/products/7/exhaust and I am familiar w/ the 4 into 1 MAC if I would have to go that route.

But, that link above has different models for the 77/78 and previous models.  I know that the later years of the SOHC ones are less desireable, but I always figured that was just them being more collectible.  Is there any big differences here that I'm missing?

He's asking 1500 for it, and I'm hoping I can get him further down on that because I don't really care to pay nearly that much for it.

With that many miles on a [virgin] K7/8, the valve guides are probably history. This causes the bike to be extremely cold blooded on startup, and yields weaker low-end torque, even when warmed up. This often leads to the inadvertent situation where 1st and 2nd gears get wrung out pretty hard, wearing the dogs on the C2-C5 gear pair: the result of that is that the bike tends to jump out of 2nd gear under power when hot, and often bends the shift fork in the process. This is a common ailment on the post-1976 bikes, both "F" and "K" models.

With some deft hand-shifting, you can detect if the fork is bent: with the bike on the centerstand, gently and slowly move the shift lever toward 2nd gear and see how soon it locks into gear. If the arm moves up 1/2 of its travel and engages 2nd, it's likely OK. If it takes longer, or doesn't engage until fully pulled up, there's likely to be troubles inside that may have to be addressed, unless you don't mind skipping over 2nd gear on hot days. That's also an alternative, one that you will see here in the forums from time to time. :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Offline toytuff

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Re: Difference between 77-78 and previous 750's? (K)
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2012, 05:26:16 AM »
Add to Lucky's post longer frame and more rake. The 77/78 K models had the 76 F motor also. First year of the gas cap lid.

I love mine but most prefer older CB 750's. If you buy it I have some spare parts from my build.

Info:


http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/Honda/honda_cb750k7%20%2077.htm

tt


Offline toytuff

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Re: Difference between 77-78 and previous 750's? (K)
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2012, 05:45:04 AM »
I forgot to add that the 77/78 models are hard to find parts for. Only a two (2) year run so there are not many parts around.

Expect a higher cost if keeping it stock.

tt

Offline brewsky

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Re: Difference between 77-78 and previous 750's? (K)
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2012, 08:01:57 AM »
Add bigger tires and bigger chain....
66 CA77
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Offline lucky

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Re: Difference between 77-78 and previous 750's? (K)
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2012, 08:08:30 AM »
Add bigger tires and bigger chain....

I would say get rid of that #630 heavy chain and get #530 chain and sprockets.
I do not know if they even make heavier chain than #630 for motorcycles.

Offline Dyrden

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Re: Difference between 77-78 and previous 750's? (K)
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2012, 08:49:07 AM »
I have a 77 and just put guides in it because the exhaust was out of spec.  I decided to do the intake guides as well since it was pulled apart.  I think it had 24k on the clock.  I put kibble white valves in it as well as had the seats cut.

Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: Difference between 77-78 and previous 750's? (K)
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2012, 06:13:30 PM »
I know the 77/8 F bikes had the valve guide issue but the valve guides in the 77/8K and earlier F bikes are the same as the earlier years at least according to the part numbers so why would they suffer any premature wear?
You have bikes like Ofreen's F with 140,000+ on it without valve guide problems and then the above post that need replacing at 24K.  I am inclined to say if you like the bike and it checks out fine then just get it and don't worry about it.  We could probably pick any year and pick it apart with "issues".

Offline Stev-o

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Re: Difference between 77-78 and previous 750's? (K)
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2012, 06:37:44 PM »
I have a stock '78 and like it, it's a great bike. Mine likes choke for about 2 min on cold start, has 25K miles and runs great.  A little too quiet for my taste with the stock exhaust, but it's all original so don't want to modify. 
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 07:11:02 PM by Stev-o »
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Difference between 77-78 and previous 750's? (K)
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2012, 08:24:32 PM »
I know the 77/8 F bikes had the valve guide issue but the valve guides in the 77/8K and earlier F bikes are the same as the earlier years at least according to the part numbers so why would they suffer any premature wear?
You have bikes like Ofreen's F with 140,000+ on it without valve guide problems and then the above post that need replacing at 24K.  I am inclined to say if you like the bike and it checks out fine then just get it and don't worry about it.  We could probably pick any year and pick it apart with "issues".

Sadly, while Honda's part numbers remained similar, they practice something called "delta changes" in their parts supply. This term means that if a [new] part can be fit into the engine/bike with no change to form/fit/function, but is less expensive to manufacture, it is implemented with nothing more than the last 3 digits of the part number being altered, in the middle digit. For example, if the part number is : [nnnnn-300-000] in the beginning, it would become [nnnnn-300-010] at the next "delta change". Thus, you can watch the evolution of their parts over the years, if you can find both old and new parts lists.

Happily, though: you can also 'see' the evidence of that change!

The 1975 and early 1976 F0/F1 engines had the nice stellite exhaust guides that came in the earlier K0-K6 engines, which lasted a very long time. Starting in the K4, the inlet valves became less-expensive steel. Starting in the K5, the valves (exhaust side) lost their stellite and became steel, which raised the wear quite a bit if the oils were too light (i.e., 10w-something oils). In the K7/8 and F2/3 engines, the guides became cast iron on steel valves, which wear quickly, regardless of oil. Add to that the extra heat of the F1 and later engines after the DOT made Honda the first 'example' of what happens if your bikes don't meet EPA emissions testing, and you get the late-cam, lean-burn versions we see that are so hard on their valve guides.

For the wise rider (in the 1970s era, that was...), switching immediately to the K&N air filter richened up the low RPM range a bit and really improved the engine's response and health, long term. I suspect this is what Ofreen did, but haven't asked him directly. This cooled the engines off immensely. If the mainjets were also raised by a 5 number (to 110), the post-1975 bikes fared far better in longevity, too.

For the most part, you can tell externally if the engine has cast-iron or stellite guides by looking at the carb types: the PD carb'd engines all have cast-iron guides. The only exception is the 1976 F1: approximately the first 4-5 months had (probably leftover) stellite, while the later ones had cast iron.

Stellite is expensive, and the 750 was facing stiff competition from Kawi and Suzy by 1974. Honda was trying to keep the costs and price down, to keep sales up.

In my [personal] Lifetime Analysis (which is based on our 40+ years of observation of the bikes), those bikes that used low-detergent, high-quality, 20w50 oil most (or all) of their lives have delivered VERY long life with little wear. Those that were mis-serviced by Honda's goofed-up mis-translation Jinglish of the post-1975 Owner's Manuals, using 10w40 oils of 'automotive grade', have become leaky at the rubber seals and have lost their valve guides, and often their cams, losing lift on the lobes.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Online Don R

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Re: Difference between 77-78 and previous 750's? (K)
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2012, 08:38:43 PM »
Thanks Mark once again I gained useful information that I'm sure is in the book. don't have it now, it's my brothers turn to read it. We're going to have to get another one. Lol.
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Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: Difference between 77-78 and previous 750's? (K)
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2012, 12:06:00 AM »
I know the 77/8 F bikes had the valve guide issue but the valve guides in the 77/8K and earlier F bikes are the same as the earlier years at least according to the part numbers so why would they suffer any premature wear?
You have bikes like Ofreen's F with 140,000+ on it without valve guide problems and then the above post that need replacing at 24K.  I am inclined to say if you like the bike and it checks out fine then just get it and don't worry about it.  We could probably pick any year and pick it apart with "issues".



The 1975 and early 1976 F0/F1 engines had the nice stellite exhaust guides that came in the earlier K0-K6 engines, which lasted a very long time. Starting in the K4, the inlet valves became less-expensive steel. Starting in the K5, the valves (exhaust side) lost their stellite and became steel, which raised the wear quite a bit if the oils were too light (i.e., 10w-something oils). In the K7/8 and F2/3 engines, the guides became cast iron on steel valves, which wear quickly, regardless of oil. Add to that the extra heat of the F1 and later engines after the DOT made Honda the first 'example' of what happens if your bikes don't meet EPA emissions testing, and you get the late-cam, lean-burn versions we see that are so hard on their valve guides.

For the wise rider (in the 1970s era, that was...), switching immediately to the K&N air filter richened up the low RPM range a bit and really improved the engine's response and health, long term. I suspect this is what Ofreen did, but haven't asked him directly. This cooled the engines off immensely. If the mainjets were also raised by a 5 number (to 110), the post-1975 bikes fared far better in longevity, too.

For the most part, you can tell externally if the engine has cast-iron or stellite guides by looking at the carb types: the PD carb'd engines all have cast-iron guides. The only exception is the 1976 F1: approximately the first 4-5 months had (probably leftover) stellite, while the later ones had cast iron.



Interesting info Mark.  The build date on my F1 is 6/75 putting it into the 3rd month of production so hopefully it has the stellite guides.  I do have a set of 110 jets that I had planned on putting in as I feel the bike runs a tad lean in the stock set up...now I have another reason.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 04:51:51 PM by srust58 »

Offline toytuff

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Re: Difference between 77-78 and previous 750's? (K)
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2012, 07:37:15 AM »
I have a stock '78 and like it, it's a great bike. Mine likes choke for about 2 min on cold start, has 25 miles and runs great.  A little too quiet for my taste with the stock exhaust, but it's all original so don't want to modify. 

Go check it out.

They are cold blooded for sure!

tt

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Difference between 77-78 and previous 750's? (K)
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2012, 07:08:39 PM »
I have had my 78K for 15 years. Tires, Chains, Tuneups and the other assorted  things you do to any 35 year old bike is all it needed. Being longer with more rake was supposed to make it a better cruiser. I bought a lot of parts from Honda. A lot of parts are generic.
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