Author Topic: Frame numbers.  (Read 1816 times)

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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Frame numbers.
« on: February 07, 2021, 02:31:46 am »
CB750 3113, can anyone shed any light on this frame number, year, model ect.
Thanks in advance.

Sam.
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Offline gschuld

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Re: Frame numbers.
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2021, 06:55:38 am »
Just sent you a PM Sam

George

Offline 754

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Re: Frame numbers.
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2021, 08:48:55 am »
 If it has two  zeros before the first 3, it's an early 750..... you know what that means. ..
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Frame numbers.
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2021, 10:35:39 am »
If it has two  zeros before the first 3, it's an early 750..... you know what that means. ..

Nothing before the 4 numbers Frank But George has come up with the answer.
The frame was a Honda race frame for the CR750.

Sam.
C95 sprint bike.
CB95 hybrid race bike
CB95 race bike
CB92
RS 175. sprint/land speed bike
JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

Offline napoleonb

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Re: Frame numbers.
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2021, 02:49:42 pm »
And now we want pictures of course...

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Frame numbers.
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2021, 03:37:26 pm »
And now we want pictures of course...

Page 20 on the sticky 1970 Daytona thread nap, let me know if you don't find it, I'll post tomorrow. I'm busy now watching the Super Bowl.
C95 sprint bike.
CB95 hybrid race bike
CB95 race bike
CB92
RS 175. sprint/land speed bike
JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

Offline gschuld

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Re: Frame numbers.
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2021, 08:55:00 pm »
Pics from the Stafford Bike Show in England 2009 I think


George

Offline 754

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Re: Frame numbers.
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2021, 09:23:08 pm »
 Interesting.  It has late triple trees  frame has differences in neck area, triangle brace is lower, I jean shorter over all .  I think lower tubes are  raised to allow top end removal.  L what do you know about swingarm ! Not CR , I take it. ..?
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline gschuld

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Re: Frame numbers.
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2021, 04:47:40 am »
Frank,

Take everything below as my understanding based on some research, not established fact.  I am no Honda race bike historian....and there has certainly been disagreements regarding the fine details of what really happened back then.  I would not be insulted in the least for anyone to correct any bad info below.

The swingarm is likely a Spondon unit.  Not something that would have come from Honda.  It’s a little lighter than a factory arm so it makes some sense.

FWIW, the frame in question is almost certainly not a modified factory frame.  It’s in all likelihood a chromoly tube frame built at the Honda racing department in Japan(or at least someone tried really hard to make it appear to be).  It’s a road race frame obviously, with the lowered neck position like the Daytona bikes.  It’s very likely a clone or near clone of the Daytona frames(there were only 4 frames sent to Daytona, but there were more frames/chassis/complete bikes made overall.  Or this frame could have predated the Daytona frames if it was one of the Honda France Bol d’Or 69 frames or for some of the other races they competed in before Daytona(Morio Sumiya/Tetsuya Hishiki won the 10 hours race of Suzuka in 69 before Daytona as well).  Honda sent complete and or partial race bikes over to Team Honda France, Bill Smith Honda, and others.  Then there were the multitude of gifted and purchased 970 kits, partial kits, and individual parts (a whole separate subject) mixed in.  How many in total is unknown(or if known, certainly not public knowledge). The 69 Bol d’Or 24 hours was won on one of the two works RC750s Honda sent to France before the the Daytona win.  They likely had minor differences being for a 24 hour race(notice the big battery bracket behind the breather).  It may well be one of those chassis.  Or it could be from Bill Smith Honda’s race bikes.  Or maybe from somewhere else entirely.  Based on its last known location, its most likely from the Bill Smith or Honda France stuff.  It could easily have been modified over its handful of years racing.  Who knows...what we see now is likely only how it left the track.

The special Honda built race chromoly frames were said to all have been stamped Cb750 followed by a 4 digit number for in house record keeping(not for registration) so it’s unlikely one of the hand built privateer made Daytona clone or near clone frames that were also being made at the time to race unless it was intentionally made to be passed off as a Works frame.  Only a handful of people carefully guard the Works frame numbers and fine details of the 4 Daytona bikes and others.  Public knowledge would encourage those wishing to cash in by creating a “genuine Dick Mann bike” to sell for a bazillion dollars if enough people were convinced it was the genuine article.

I’d love to relocate that chassis to have it properly photographed and measured.

If anyone knows where it is, please let me know.

George

« Last Edit: February 08, 2021, 05:41:26 am by gschuld »

Offline simon#42

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Re: Frame numbers.
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2021, 09:42:10 am »
its very easy to stamp a frame number . i know nothing about this bike but i am seeing an awful lot of fakes at the moment . if someone is considering buying this frame i would check very carefully first .  the swing arm is from spondon.

Offline gschuld

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Re: Frame numbers.
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2021, 10:28:09 am »
I agree, near perfect fakes are not hard to create as long as you have the correct information to go off of.  For example, if someone has a true original Works frame/chassis, copying it well is just a matter of craftsmanship as the same materials and methods are easily available and known today.

It’s like 1969 Yanko Camaros.  Thee are currently more on the certified registry now than were ever made, but a bunch.

All it takes is skills combined with opportunity/greed.

If Daniel Mercier was able to convince the group of original Daytona guys that his bike was indeed the Dick Mann Daytona bike, the value of it would be?

George

Offline H2Eric

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Re: Frame numbers.
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2021, 03:14:12 am »
This particular frame was for sale at the Classic bike Show at Stafford some years ago. The seller I believe was Paul McGhie and the frame originated from Bill Smith's emporium. It was eventually sold and went to a gentleman in Italy and to my knowledge has not been heard of since. I'll get in touch with Paul to check I've got the story right and get back soonest.

Eric
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Frame numbers.
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2021, 07:35:47 am »
This particular frame was for sale at the Classic bike Show at Stafford some years ago. The seller I believe was Paul McGhie and the frame originated from Bill Smith's emporium. It was eventually sold and went to a gentleman in Italy and to my knowledge has not been heard of since. I'll get in touch with Paul to check I've got the story right and get back soonest.

Eric

Spot on Eric, I was there and that's what I was told by the guy selling it for Paul but I never heard it was eventually sold to a guy in Italy.

Sam.
C95 sprint bike.
CB95 hybrid race bike
CB95 race bike
CB92
RS 175. sprint/land speed bike
JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

Offline Cb750 Racer

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Re: Frame numbers.
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2021, 09:12:31 pm »
The Early Cb750 Prototypes had a vin format of four Digits #1***. Later pre production prototypes like the one that sold at auction for 150k were vin format #2***. Once production started they used the standard CB750-1000001 vin but I believe the 4 number vins to be used on Honda test vehicles.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2021, 09:14:17 pm by Cb750 Racer »
Turbo Billet Block cb750
1975 Honda CB400f
1972 Suzuki GT750J
1984 Kawasaki GPZ900 Mr.Turbo Top Gun build
2002 Suzuki Bandit 1200 Turbo
1979 Honda CBX
1990 Mr.Turbo Kawasaki ZX11
And Dozens More...

Offline H2Eric

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Re: Frame numbers.
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2021, 03:36:40 am »
This particular frame was for sale at the Classic bike Show at Stafford some years ago. The seller I believe was Paul McGhie and the frame originated from Bill Smith's emporium. It was eventually sold and went to a gentleman in Italy and to my knowledge has not been heard of since. I'll get in touch with Paul to check I've got the story right and get back soonest.

Eric

Spot on Eric, I was there and that's what I was told by the guy selling it for Paul but I never heard it was eventually sold to a guy in Italy.

Sam.

Nearly got the story right. The frame was originally acquired by Paul from Alf Briggs, not Bill Smith.
Eric
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Frame numbers.
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2021, 12:14:46 pm »
He did have 2 Eric and one was from Bill Smith, I'm not sure which one though.
C95 sprint bike.
CB95 hybrid race bike
CB95 race bike
CB92
RS 175. sprint/land speed bike
JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

Offline H2Eric

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Re: Frame numbers.
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2021, 04:10:35 am »
I'm informed that the Bill Smith bikes used a frame taken from the production line and were not made in the Honda Racing department. Hence they weighed a ton in comparison to the genuine 'works' frames. The bikes were finished off with a collection of '970' parts and a few magnesium bits such as covers. Bill Smith did win the 750 race at the Isle of man Southern 100 event in 1972 on such a bike.

To throw another frame into the mix, I'm hearing of the existence of another 'works' type frame with the number 750  003. Headstock similar to that pictured above i.e. approx. 25mm lower. Swinging arm with the fork for the rear shocks instead of the usual Honda 'eye'.

Another snippet of info is that I'm told that Peter Darvill (founder of Darvill Racing) made a frame to look like the works frames with the lower headstock, but instead of using a steel pressing like Mr. Honda used a steel tube for the headstock with all the other tubes welded to it, similar to my old Honda drag bike no less.

Food for thought?

Eric
Honda CR750
Honda CB750K3
Kawasaki 750H2B
Suzuki GS750
Honda CB175
Honda CB350F
Yamaha R1

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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Frame numbers.
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2021, 04:28:25 am »
I'm informed that the Bill Smith bikes used a frame taken from the production line and were not made in the Honda Racing department. Hence they weighed a ton in comparison to the genuine 'works' frames. The bikes were finished off with a collection of '970' parts and a few magnesium bits such as covers. Bill Smith did win the 750 race at the Isle of man Southern 100 event in 1972 on such a bike.

To throw another frame into the mix, I'm hearing of the existence of another 'works' type frame with the number 750  003. Headstock similar to that pictured above i.e. approx. 25mm lower. Swinging arm with the fork for the rear shocks instead of the usual Honda 'eye'.

Another snippet of info is that I'm told that Peter Darvill (founder of Darvill Racing) made a frame to look like the works frames with the lower headstock, but instead of using a steel pressing like Mr. Honda used a steel tube for the headstock with all the other tubes welded to it, similar to my old Honda drag bike no less.

Food for thought?

Eric

Eric, the Darvill frames were made by Spondon with blessing from Honda. Only 7 were made, 5 for Honda France and 2 for Peter himself.
All are accounted for except for 1. They are all in private hands now.

Sam.
C95 sprint bike.
CB95 hybrid race bike
CB95 race bike
CB92
RS 175. sprint/land speed bike
JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

Offline bwaller

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Re: Frame numbers.
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2021, 08:32:25 am »
It would be most interesting to know the difference in frame weight, especially those made in house at Mother Honda. I realize it would be easier to find out what is happening on Mars right now!

What actually bothers me the most here is, we have unobtainium unicorn parts that will never see the light of day. It's a damned shame these things don't get to ever stretch their legs on a race track because what has happened cost wise. Most of us would love a chance to ogle a complete bike somewhere.

And I wonder if there is anyone in existence who actually knows the whole truth? It's only fifty-two years back in time.

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Frame numbers.
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2021, 03:43:50 pm »
to a certain degree, you can be glad that all that 750 stuff exists even if scattered... later on the jap four started crushing their works stuff, never to be seen...
nice (but painfull) read
https://www.superbikeplanet.com/moto-mortality-old-racebikes-go-die-2/