Author Topic: Major wiring issues on the CB650  (Read 477 times)

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Offline Jbosma

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Major wiring issues on the CB650
« on: February 09, 2021, 11:12:08 AM »
I am in need of some help as I have done some wiring on my 81 CB650 and have gotten into a major conundrum. Im in the process of doing a cafe racer build on my 650 and its gone fairly well except I've saved the best for last...wiring. Ive gotten new LED turn signals for the front and the rear, new tail light that im not so sure its LED or halogen, new speedometer and tachometer. I am currently working on the from turn signals and wiring that together with the dash (speedo and tach). Ive had many problems and the entire system has had several anomalies that I can't find a valuable reason for.

Ive drawn a very crude version of a wiring diagram I hope this make sense. If its a dotted line that means its a color mixed with white.
So the issues im having right now is the turn signals always come on. I can still control and make them blink by moving the switch to left and right and they will blink independently but they are always illuminated. Ive tested my relay, and the new LED relay is good. I also can't understand how my wiring harness has an extra white wire that is going to the relay that is not shown in the original wiring diagram but if I don't hook this top for my new led flasher it won't work.

Now I've had several anomalies that I can't explain.
-I am also having issues where this morning, without doing anything to the wiring the turn signals still remain on but when I switch them to left or right each separately goes dim when I turn the switch to that position.
-some times when I put the keying the ignition not all of the lights on the dash come on ill wiggle the key and the lights might flicker a little. Now I've ordered a new ignition just to see if that makes a difference. maybe the key and locks are worn out in it.
-currently when I put my head light in the speedometer lights turn off but the back light on the tachometer stays on.

at first I thought that both my turn signals were coming on because they splice into the same wire for the dash. but I already have diodes in place so that shouldn't happen because off the dash. so I disconnected the wire that goes from the dash turn signal indicator to the left and right turn signal wires and both my turn signals stay illuminated....

I also tested for continuity for all my wires that are going to the turn signal control switch and they all check good.

Lots of issues i'm willing to take any advice you guys may have.
thanks you

Offline bryanj

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Re: Major wiring issues on the CB650
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2021, 12:16:07 PM »
Do you have only one indicator reapeater or two?
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Jbosma

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Re: Major wiring issues on the CB650
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2021, 12:38:39 PM »
I’m assuming you’re talking about how many indicator lights I have for my turn signals on my dash and I only have one.

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Major wiring issues on the CB650
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2021, 02:14:05 PM »
Remove your grounds to the frame and to the engine and clean the terminals and the mount points you want fresh metal to metal and use some dielectric grease on these areas when reassembling. The shop manual for the cb650 is available and should show you the grounding locations if the exploded diagrams in the parts ficsh (do they still call them that?)
You are getting feedback in your circuit that. Sounds like it is trying to find a ground. A circuit with ground problems with find alternate paths to ground back feeding through cirvuit that share a gound point. Some devices or circuits have protection when they could be damaged by reverse polarity. But that is not the case on old bikes and cars...most circuits were unaffected negatively, as are our bike, by negatively I am referring to damaging components within that device. Exceptions are the voltage regulator, sometimes they fry if you were to reverse polarity the battery terminals. This is also true for a car battery even on old cars. You can only idiot proof things so much, you cannot protect against all idiots, they find new ways unaccounted for...

New repro harnesses are out there as well for the cb650 and not too expensive.

As far as your blinkers, they only work if bike is running. Also, is your blinker relay original or did you replace it with a new electronic flasher compatible with LEDs and incandescent bulbs that does not care about the load?
If you replaced it, then what model and brand flasher did you use?

Have you taken every connector apart one at a time and cleaned each and every terminal one by one with a brass brush in the barrel (female) and on the plug ( male)  and then reassembled or reassembled with a tiny bit of dielectric grease on the male plug. You likely will need to use a spritz of spray electronics cleaner on the connectors before brushing if they previously had dielectric or other grease.
This is an important step to do on any new bike and periodically during your ownership, an every two year cycle at least is my practice on old bikes.
On a certain marque of car that is shunned by many and causes outcries that will remain nameless, 😉😁, it was good maintenance practice to clean the cabin fuse box every year. Moisture and open terminal design and dissimilar metals between brass fuse terminals and the metal of the fuses would cause interesting things to occur if neglected. It was a simple half hour job after you disconnected the ground of the battery with your brass brush. It was better to just change out all the fuses, provided you were not buying them at the dealer, rather than trying to clean the fuse ends. They were bullet shaped/pointed, on both ends, a certain germanic design.

David- back in the desert SW!

Offline Jbosma

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Re: Major wiring issues on the CB650
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2021, 03:12:31 PM »
I have replaced the relay. Originally I replaced it with a nice one from motogadget, which turned out to be faulty.... I did a test again with a mini circuit of a relay, battery and blinker and it would flash at random sequences. I then went to autozone and bought a relay its probably net the best relay either but at one point I was able to get the blinkers to work properly with this relay. After about 30 seconds of the blinker flashing it would quit. I don't think this was a battery issue and I confirmed this by testing the battery it was putting out 10v. I then turned the ignition switch from off to on, blinkers would work again for 20-30 seconds then quit. Sometimes only the left blinker would work.

Motogadget is sending me a new relay since I was able to prove it wasn't working. But the current relay from autozone is a Novita LED 12.8V/162W Max. And again I know this relay works I did the little mini circuit test and it works great, blinks for as long as I will let it.

I did clean the connections inside the turn signal switch housing but did not put and diametric grease in there, ill have to do that. I haven't cleaned every pin ill get back to some of them with a wire brush but I can say that about 75% of the front wiring harness has new pins.

I think the theory of a possible ground that doesn't have a good connection makes the most sense ill have to test my grounds and maybe find/make some new frame grounds to get a good test.


Offline Jbosma

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Re: Major wiring issues on the CB650
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2021, 03:14:04 PM »
also Im pretty sure I should be able to operate my turn signals without the engine running. I was able to do it with the stock lights and have gotten it to work with the LEDs before. Just seems as if I fix one problem it creates another.

Offline bryanj

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Re: Major wiring issues on the CB650
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2021, 04:21:55 PM »
Led blinkers will not work with only one dash light as it has to be connected to both sides and the leds sense a much lower current than incandesant bulbs.try disconnecting both wires to the dash bulb and see what happens
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Bodi

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Re: Major wiring issues on the CB650
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2021, 06:37:12 PM »
Looking at your drawing, what are the dashed blue and orange wires for? Should be the marker function but it isn't clear that you have a marker light input on the signal.
The diodes to the turn signal idiot light look ok, as long as they both point the right way... but if you do connect the marker wires to the signal wires the dash light will always be on.
I assume your key switch turns the black wire to the fuses on and off, so nothing is powered with key off? Your wiring around the clocks doesn't make much sense to me. It would be better to use a consistent color for ground and each power circuit... but that doesn't affect operation, just makes it easier to understand and troubleshoot.
The mystery is your flasher. I don't know what that white wire is for. Try disconnecting the flasher and turning the key on. Signals and idiot light should be off regardless of signal switch position. Jumper the wires for the flasher and try again, each direction (and the idiot light) should come on with the switch in their direction and stay off with the switch in centre. If not, track the wiring and find out why. The marker light wires might be a problem, try disconnecting them if it isn't playing right. The original wiring assumes the turn and markers are independent lamps (sharing ground and in the same bulb, but independent) and I don't see what would cause trouble but it's odd if they are wired as drawn.
If the lighting works correctly as described, your flasher is not working correctly.
A two terminal flasher can work if it's a certain electronic type, but I don't like them - just because they take a half second or so to light after the switch is slid over. Electromechanical ones will not work with LED signals unless you add a load resistor for each side.
An electronic 3 terminal flasher is best, the kind with a power terminal. ground terminal, and load terminal. There are several types of 3 terminal flashers where the third terminal is not ground, it's for tralier lights or for a dash idiot light... not good for us and likely to pop a fuse if tried as the terminal you expect to be ground is actually power out. Automotive electronic flashers will flash at a high "error" rate with LED signals because they sense lamp current and below some amperage they assume a bulb has blown and flash fast to show that. Special LED flashers are available with that sensing disabled to flash the normal slow rate but they cost much more than a standard one - and the fast flash is pretty cool IMO.

Offline Jbosma

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Re: Major wiring issues on the CB650
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2021, 08:26:51 AM »
The blue/white and orange/white go to the turn signal switch. So my turn signals have just two wires, a red and black. I took the black wire and put it to wired ground or frame ground. I think spliced the red wire making it into two wires essentially. One goes to the solid color, and then the other goes to the solid/white.

So I currently have a 3 prong relay each one being  either “L,B,E”. And the lights only flash if I have all 3 hooked up. I’ll try and post a picture of my relay.
But do I have the LEDs wired incorrectly? How else would I do it?
And to be clear the wires that are going to the turn signal indicator light on the dash, if I disconnect that the blinkers still stay illuminated.

Offline Bodi

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Re: Major wiring issues on the CB650
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2021, 04:31:26 PM »
L = load, B = battery, E = earth (ground) ... probably. This flasher should not work without the ground connection.
Did you test it by disconnecting the flasher then touching the battery and load wires together (imitating the flasher)? No lights should come on in any switch position with it disconnected (unless you do have marker lamps working... if so and you do get other lights on try it with them disconnected).
The diodes are connected OK but you don't show their polarity. Both cathode ends must connect to the idiot light. That's the end with the line/bar marking. Most any standard diode (except tiny glass signal diodes) should work but typically 1N4000 series diodes are used as they are common and cheap.

Offline Jbosma

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Re: Major wiring issues on the CB650
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2021, 11:57:34 AM »
Alright we made some progress.
What ended up being the issue is I had 3 wires that came out from my wiring harness that went to the relay. There was a green/white, grey and a green ground. For some reason my Haynes manual schematic does not show the grey wire leaving me clueless to what it does. I reached out to a local honda shop who provided me with a correct schematic and they helped me diagnose the issue. The green/white wire was essentially my ground and my grey wire was the hot/live wire. The extra green ground is probably for some type of add on you could get with for the 650, nothing actually connects to that green grounding wire. So, I got a new 2 prong relay from motogadget (they had to send me a replacement for one that failed) and I hooked the ground wire to green/white  and the grey wire to the hot red wire of the relay and now my blinkers work perfect. I can't believe it was that simple, something I overlooked but having the correct schematic would help.

My other issue now though is that when I hook up my headlight the speedometer and warning lights all shut off.... not sure if its because something isn't wired correctly or that that its just too much of a load for the battery. I am also thinking I need a new battery, it dropped from 12v-10v after testing the blinkers for about one minute and will drop to 9v after testing the headlamp/high beam.