Topic: Hagerty valuations

[Tom]

https://www.hagerty.com/media/market-trends/hagerty-insider/insider-insight-how-to-spot-an-outlier/

[Tom]

This has to get your attention.

[caluser2000]

Here in New Zealand when a m/c over 500cc becomes 40 years old registration drops from nz$520 down to nz$52 a yea. This is a great reason to get our dears back on the road.

Because of a big speed campaign for the last few years most traffic travels at 94kph to 105kph down here. I ride my CB550 in the 105kph-120kph on the main routes and am passing the majority of traffic quite easily.

[Kevnz]

Couple of weeks ago, a very nice K1 ( I think) 750 sold here in NZ for $38,200, a massive price for here. In about 2004 I sold my restored K2 for $6,400, which was then the highest price I had seen one go for.  Sold a nice 500 in about  2010 for $6,200, again the highest price I had seen for a 500. I sold that to fund my next 500, which I sold , having owned since 2005 for $10K last year, so the trend is pretty obvious and totally predictable. As Caluser points out, anything 40 years or older attracts cheap registration, even if it's an XS1000, or KZ1300, while my 1999 VFR cost $90 for 2 months. Go figure, but it's apparently based on statistics, but quite why you are more likely to crash a 39 year old bike than a 40 year old one escapes me. I'm wondering if the huge price paid for the 750 will drag up prices of the smaller ones, given that they cost just as much to restore, and are often more rare.

[bryanj]

Here in UK at 40 years the "tax" is zero and you are exempt annual inspection as well(MOT). You still have to insure it and tax it at a cost of £0 to ride it or they fine you up to £800 for not paying £0 tax. Oh and if you dont want to tax it you have to sorn(statutary off road notification) it or they fine you as well

Beurocracy run rampant

[caluser2000]

Not having a MOT/WOF here in test is iffy. What if the m/c is a complete danger to other road users?

We get WOFs every 6 month here and it is also peace of mind for the riders.

[bryanj]

The UK construction and use law says you must keep your vehicle roadworthy so you can still be knicked for an unsafe vehicle even if its exempt mot

[caluser2000]

So do we but if you have a current WOF and it  is obvious there is something obvious like tire tread below limita because you've just done a burn out you can be done depending on the cercimstaces your were stopped for.

[Kevnz]

Way back when, the fine for no WoF was the same as for no rego. Considering a Wof then cost about $25 and rego was in the hundreds, it was worth the risk of running with no rego. Indeed. I ran my XJ750 for more than 20 years with neither rego or Wof. After about 3 years I figured that even if I got knicked, I would still be in credit.  After 20 years I probably saved twice as much I paid for the bike. Made me a safer rider too, didn't want draw attention to oneself. The fines have since been upped massively, so the cheap rego for old bikes is hugely attractive, to me at least.

[seanbarney41]

I am not seeing Hagerty as the most trusted source for information like this.  Hagerty has a very skewed point of view as an agreed value insurer.  If you don't know, agreed value basically means the insurance customer decides how much his vehicle is worth.  I just bought Hagerty Insurance for all my bikes.  They are all insured for a couple g's more than I ever expect I could sell them for.  So, the more Hagerty convinces you they could be worth, the more you have to pay for insurance rates.

[Kevnz]

That's true, but by the same token, if a claim is made they will have to pay out more. It's a numbers game, and , I guess, they are better at playing it than us. Like anything, repeat it enough and it becomes the truth, so a potential vendor will expect these high prices, possibly not sell if he \ she doesn't receive them and so that becomes the new default value.

[PeWe]

Those high prices are for mint condition, everything bone stock to the smallest screw?

No frame cuts like cafe bikes or for lifting valve cover either?

About tax and ensurances here.
0 tax for both my CB750.
My K2 full ensurance I can ride daily is ca: $75US/year.

I asked for a more expensive for my K6, $110US/year. I do not want to use the ensurance.

There is a small fee for registration, less than $10US/year.
No vehicle inspections anymore for 40 years old bikes. Always ensured and ready for a ride if bike is not taken apart.

I have an uncut frame I can use for my K2. It need a vehicle inspection since that frame with registration was in traffic in the 90's.
The K2s frame is inspected so it can look as I want as long it is roadworthy for my inspection

[Maltboy]

Here in UK at 40 years the "tax" is zero and you are exempt annual inspection as well(MOT). You still have to insure it and tax it at a cost of £0 to ride it or they fine you up to £800 for not paying £0 tax. Oh and if you dont want to tax it you have to sorn(statutary off road notification) it or they fine you as well

Beurocracy run rampant

I'd probably send them a check for £0 to see what happened.  I wonder if the bank would cash it. 

[Doobie]

I'd probably send them a check for £0 to see what happened.  I wonder if the bank would cash it.

The world would run so much better without bureaucrats. I got a tax bill from the IRS for$.35 the other day.

I've bought and sold a number of CB750s in recent years and in my experience, prices are on the way up and accelerating. It's also getting harder to find decent bikes without the seller asking a ridiculous price.

Haggerty refers to a bike that sold on BoT. People always seem to overpay on that site. The next time I sell a bike, that's where I'll list it.

[ekpent]

Those high prices are for mint condition, everything bone stock to the smallest screw?

No frame cuts like cafe bikes or for lifting valve cover either?

About tax and ensurances here.
0 tax for both my CB750.
My K2 full ensurance I can ride daily is ca: $75US/year.

I asked for a more expensive for my K6, $110US/year. I do not want to use the ensurance.

There is a small fee for registration, less than $10US/year.
No vehicle inspections anymore for 40 years old bikes. Always ensured and ready for a ride if bike is not taken apart.

I have an uncut frame I can use for my K2. It need a vehicle inspection since that frame with registration was in traffic in the 90's.
The K2s frame is inspected so it can look as I want as long it is roadworthy for my inspection

  That all sounds very fair.

[craz1]

I have Hagerty for 5 of my vintage bikes. When I do sell one they have asked me what the selling price was so they try and track the values. Yes you decide what the bikes are worth when you insure with them but that means you will get that amount and not what the insurance company decides. Also they realize you can only ride one bike at a time so the cost is very reasonable. I pay just over $500 for the 5 vintage bikes with 300/500 coverage . They will give you the higher amounts if you have a 1,000,000 rider which I have with Farmers. In comparison I pay close to $1,000 for my two modern bikes 2013 FJR and the 2020 Tracer with the same coverage.

Something is happening in the Vintage Japanese bike market. The sell prices seem to getting very high. The last (30 74 Z1900 bikes on Ebay sold for 16,500,19,500,22,200.

[Tim2005]

It's an odd article. Statistics based on 2 CB750 sales this year, and line graphing them? The high sale was on the BAT site which has got some attention for its unusual, and perhaps dodgy, results.   

Articles like this suggest to me that they are getting a bit desperate and are trying to talk up an ailing market.

[Kevnz]

Is it really an ailing market, though? With the various restrictions caused by Covid, and the poor returns on investment savings, people are looking for better places to invest their money, and classic cars, bikes, artwork etc look like giving a better return than many other traditional options. Plus, if you are inclined, you can use them or improve them. Maybe the dearth of sales is symptomatic of that; people holding on to them.

[PeWe]

Maybe the today is scaring with really bad events happening.

Going back to happier days as these bikes will remind us about is a good thing.
70-80's was a nice period with really good music, pubs, discotecs with dancing, lightshows synched to the music. Most chicks braless too On the beaches top-less!

[Freebirdbeachbum]

The best thing to come from rising prices will hopefully be to curb cafe racer conversions. 

[Kevnz]

I've always returned my projects back to stock. When comes the time to sell, there is always plenty of interest, ( maybe because they come on the market so rarely) and good prices. I use proceeds to fund the next project, always sohc\4's

[Kevnz]

FTI, a running, but rough 400 sold yesterday for $6250, a so\so 350 non-runner has a current bid of $2630 and a superb K2 750 quicly went to $20K with a week to run on the auction. An upside to all this is my wife has suggested I buy more bikes to do up, as money in the bank is currently earning about 0.8% interest. Downside is that she suggested any profit I make be spent on the house.

[ekpent]

FTI, a running, but rough 400 sold yesterday for $6250, a so\so 350 non-runner has a current bid of $2630 and a superb K2 750 quicly went to $20K with a week to run on the auction. An upside to all this is my wife has suggested I buy more bikes to do up, as money in the bank is currently earning about 0.8% interest. Downside is that she suggested any profit I make be spent on the house.

  Which site are those prices/results from ? I read on here that BAT seems to be getting good money.

[PeWe]

A good garage is a very important house investment.
OK, replace oven and dishwasher in kitchen, old setup needed in the garage!

[Stev-o]

  If you don't know, agreed value basically means the insurance customer decides how much his vehicle is worth.

Hey Sean...I'm more familiar with Classic Car insurance, but typically "agreed value" is what you and the insurance company agree with on to set the value on it.  I help my buddy set the agreed value on his classic car collection, it is typiaccly 10-20% higher than his purchase price.

FTI, a running, but rough 400 sold yesterday for $6250, a so\so 350 non-runner has a current bid of $2630 and a superb K2 750 quicly went to $20K with a week to run on the auction. An upside to all this is my wife has suggested I buy more bikes to do up, as money in the bank is currently earning about 0.8% interest. Downside is that she suggested any profit I make be spent on the house.

  Which site are those prices/results from ? I read on here that BAT seems to be getting good money.

I watch BAT auction for classic cars and bikes.  The numbers seem to be getting ridiculously high!

Tempted to list a bike...

[ekpent]

  If you don't know, agreed value basically means the insurance customer decides how much his vehicle is worth.

Hey Sean...I'm more familiar with Classic Car insurance, but typically "agreed value" is what you and the insurance company agree with on to set the value on it.  I help my buddy set the agreed value on his classic car collection, it is typiaccly 10-20% higher than his purchase price.

FTI, a running, but rough 400 sold yesterday for $6250, a so\so 350 non-runner has a current bid of $2630 and a superb K2 750 quicly went to $20K with a week to run on the auction. An upside to all this is my wife has suggested I buy more bikes to do up, as money in the bank is currently earning about 0.8% interest. Downside is that she suggested any profit I make be spent on the house.

  Which site are those prices/results from ? I read on here that BAT seems to be getting good money.

I watch BAT auction for classic cars and bikes.  The numbers seem to be getting ridiculously high!

Tempted to list a bike...

Me to Steve.

[PeWe]

Harvest time.
Guys with a heard of good bikes can thinning it and ensure the retirement

[Kevnz]

Site is Trade Me in New Zealand. 350 currently just above $2800, now; typicaly there is a bidding frenzy just before auction end.

[seanbarney41]

  If you don't know, agreed value basically means the insurance customer decides how much his vehicle is worth.

Hey Sean...I'm more familiar with Classic Car insurance, but typically "agreed value" is what you and the insurance company agree with on to set the value on it.  I help my buddy set the agreed value on his classic car collection, it is typiaccly 10-20% higher than his purchase price.

FTI, a running, but rough 400 sold yesterday for $6250, a so\so 350 non-runner has a current bid of $2630 and a superb K2 750 quicly went to $20K with a week to run on the auction. An upside to all this is my wife has suggested I buy more bikes to do up, as money in the bank is currently earning about 0.8% interest. Downside is that she suggested any profit I make be spent on the house.

  Which site are those prices/results from ? I read on here that BAT seems to be getting good money.

I watch BAT auction for classic cars and bikes.  The numbers seem to be getting ridiculously high!

Tempted to list a bike...

Steve-O, I have never used specialized Classic vehicle insurance with agreed value until this last renewal.  I assumed Hagerty would have some kind of voice about the values I stated.  They did not blink or ask for any kind of hard valuation evidence.  I understand they may ask for photos in some circumstances.  I just estimated what it would cost me to replace and added 1 to 2k dollars on top for good measure.  Of course the more you insure them for, the more they gonna charge you, so obviously, its not gonna be in your interest to go wild.  None of my bikes are worth much in the collector market anyway.  For 4 bikes, I am paying $100 less a year than I was with just the minimum Michigan road legal coverage.  Now I get money if my bikes are damaged.  So these rates are very reasonable.  But this is why, I think, Hagerty is seeing skewed values...because guys are setting their agreed values to cover everything, much higher than what the bikes could actually be sold for.

[Stev-o]

  If you don't know, agreed value basically means the insurance customer decides how much his vehicle is worth.

Hey Sean...I'm more familiar with Classic Car insurance, but typically "agreed value" is what you and the insurance company agree with on to set the value on it.  I help my buddy set the agreed value on his classic car collection, it is typiaccly 10-20% higher than his purchase price.

FTI, a running, but rough 400 sold yesterday for $6250, a so\so 350 non-runner has a current bid of $2630 and a superb K2 750 quicly went to $20K with a week to run on the auction. An upside to all this is my wife has suggested I buy more bikes to do up, as money in the bank is currently earning about 0.8% interest. Downside is that she suggested any profit I make be spent on the house.

  Which site are those prices/results from ? I read on here that BAT seems to be getting good money.

I watch BAT auction for classic cars and bikes.  The numbers seem to be getting ridiculously high!

Tempted to list a bike...

Steve-O, I have never used specialized Classic vehicle insurance with agreed value until this last renewal.  I assumed Hagerty would have some kind of voice about the values I stated.  They did not blink or ask for any kind of hard valuation evidence.  I understand they may ask for photos in some circumstances.  I just estimated what it would cost me to replace and added 1 to 2k dollars on top for good measure.  Of course the more you insure them for, the more they gonna charge you, so obviously, its not gonna be in your interest to go wild.  None of my bikes are worth much in the collector market anyway.  For 4 bikes, I am paying $100 less a year than I was with just the minimum Michigan road legal coverage.  Now I get money if my bikes are damaged.  So these rates are very reasonable.  But this is why, I think, Hagerty is seeing skewed values...because guys are setting their agreed values to cover everything, much higher than what the bikes could actually be sold for.

That certainly could be the case, Sean, hadn't thought of that.
My buddy use Hagerty for his Classic Cars and they never commented on the agreed value he requested either, but they always want photos [his cars are valued at $30,000 - $75,000]

On a side note, I have my '70 Corvette insured w/American Modern, another insurance company that specializes with classic cars.  They set the agreed value at about twice the amount I could buy another one for! Who am I to argue, hope I dont total it or it gets stolen, but if it does, I'll be shopping for another and have a pocket full of money to spare!!

[Tom]

Yep having had my two year old at the time 1992 Harley Fatboy stolen and never recovered, and choosing not to pay the crazy high insurance, that really hurt. The reason my CB750’s are insured is. I have been concerned about the ready availability of second hand frames and engine cases at swap meets and in the forsale classifieds, I could probably pickup a used frame and cases get them blasted and painted and have change from a grand. So somebody else could too. And steal my bike and spend a day swapping everything over. Sad but true. And with all original parts who is to say that’s not yours. I have also gone to the trouble of stamping my initials in a few not easy to find spots before assembly, so if it comes down to it I can say here is the list of hidden spots to check. Hope I don’t need to go there again, that was a low point in my life. But just saying with increasing values don’t leave the keys in it when out Hi. Unless you have your over inflated Hagerty agreed value ins.

[Kevnz]

Ropey, non-runner 350\4 just sold here (NZ) for $4800)! Couple of very nice 750's currently sitting at $28000 and $16500 respectively, with time to run. Up hugely compared to this time last year , I would say.