Topic: Engine knocks occasionally before failing to start.

[juntjoo]

It happens usually when there isn't enough juice to make a quick easy start. It doesn't persist in the moment it's happening though. I'll just wait til I got enough juice then start it as usual  just wondering what this is about and if it's anything to worry about.

[bryanj]

When you say juice do you mean gas or electric?

[juntjoo]

When you say juice do you mean gas or electric?

Electric. I'm often having to charge my battery

[bryanj]

Then it could be the starter clutch hammering back, too much of that will damage the rollers pins and springs and can even loosen the holding screws.

EDIT and why are you having to charge your battery?

[caluser2000]

How old is the battery?

[juntjoo]

How old is the battery?

Less than a year. It's my second Walmart battery. I'm beginning to suspect all my electrical woes might just be due to this. I'll find out next time I get a battery. May be soon.

[evinrude7]

I recall you mentioning this issue before with regard to charging. Did you ever test the battery at various revs up to 4000 rpm and record the voltage readings?

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

[juntjoo]

I recall you mentioning this issue before with regard to charging. Did you ever test the battery at various revs up to 4000 rpm and record the voltage readings?

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

Yeah when fully charged it will go up to 14 volts. It always settles down at 12.8-7 even after charging up to 13.5ish volts though not sure if that's normal. Seems to lose a point one volt every few hours. Not sure if that's a "parasitic drain" or not but I still have diagnostics to do. 8 did do a test for that a bit back and I didn't find anything but I may not have done it right

[evinrude7]

I recall you mentioning this issue before with regard to charging. Did you ever test the battery at various revs up to 4000 rpm and record the voltage readings?

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

Yeah when fully charged it will go up to 14 volts.

So you are saying 14 volts when the motor is turning 4000 rpm?  Should it not be 14.5 volts at that engine speed? Or is the 650 different than the 750?

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

[juntjoo]

I recall you mentioning this issue before with regard to charging. Did you ever test the battery at various revs up to 4000 rpm and record the voltage readings?

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

Yeah when fully charged it will go up to 14 volts.

So you are saying 14 volts when the motor is turning 4000 rpm?  Should it not be 14.5 volts at that engine speed? Or is the 650 different than the 750?

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

It works in that as the rpms increase so do the volts but not enough. That's what I've observed. Works but not enough. I'm going by my voltmeter accessory but I've tested direct to battery with stand alone meter and I recall not being totally satisfied by the results.

[juntjoo]

Then it could be the starter clutch hammering back, too much of that will damage the rollers pins and springs and can even loosen the holding screws.

EDIT and why are you having to charge your battery?

Would this be from starting without enough battery power? Sounds like it as I think that's usually when it happens. It's not often but often enough to make the thread

[caluser2000]

Then it could be the starter clutch hammering back, too much of that will damage the rollers pins and springs and can even loosen the holding screws.

EDIT and why are you having to charge your battery?

Would this be from starting without enough battery power? Sounds like it as I think that's usually when it happens. It's not often but often enough to make the thread

Yes.

Us 50/550 just use the kick start when this happens, )

Do you do a lot of around town? The charging system on the 650 wasn't really much better, They change the permanent magnet\ altgernator with one that needs carbon brushes.and of course solid state reg/rct unit. I had a CB650 Custom and my brother a CB650Z Euro style one.

A battery tender might be the way to go if you are doing regular short trips with the headlight on.

[juntjoo]

Then it could be the starter clutch hammering back, too much of that will damage the rollers pins and springs and can even loosen the holding screws.

EDIT and why are you having to charge your battery?

Would this be from starting without enough battery power? Sounds like it as I think that's usually when it happens. It's not often but often enough to make the thread

Yes.

Us 50/550 just use the kick start when this happens, )

Do you do a lot of around town? The charging system on the 650 wasn't really much better, They change the permanent magnet\ altgernator with one that needs carbon brushes.and of course solid state reg/rct unit. I had a CB650 Custom and my brother a CB650Z Euro style one.

A battery tender might be the way to go if you are doing regular short trips with the headlight on.

I wonder what the DIY upgrade is on my bike. I have a light switch I put in I can turn off whenever

[caluser2000]

Then it could be the starter clutch hammering back, too much of that will damage the rollers pins and springs and can even loosen the holding screws.

EDIT and why are you having to charge your battery?

Would this be from starting without enough battery power? Sounds like it as I think that's usually when it happens. It's not often but often enough to make the thread

Yes.

Us 50/550 just use the kick start when this happens, )

Do you do a lot of around town? The charging system on the 650 wasn't really much better, They change the permanent magnet\ altgernator with one that needs carbon brushes.and of course solid state reg/rct unit. I had a CB650 Custom and my brother a CB650Z Euro style one.

A battery tender might be the way to go if you are doing regular short trips with the headlight on.

I wonder what the DIY upgrade is on my bike. I have a light switch I put in I can turn off whenever

That was standard in a lot of market. Both mine and my little bros had headlight on/off switches.

Back then here in NZ the compulsory headlight on policy had not been put in to place. I don't legibly have to have my headlight on while riding because of its age. I choose to though. I'd rather make it easy as possible for other road users to see me.

The three LED driving light unit is brilliant. And I mean that literally. A lot of other road users will pull to the left when they spot me in their rear view mirror making passing a breeze. I always wave to acknowledge their kind actions and get a smile or wave back. It is the right thing to do I feel:)

[juntjoo]

Then it could be the starter clutch hammering back, too much of that will damage the rollers pins and springs and can even loosen the holding screws.

EDIT and why are you having to charge your battery?

Would this be from starting without enough battery power? Sounds like it as I think that's usually when it happens. It's not often but often enough to make the thread

Yes.

Us 50/550 just use the kick start when this happens, )

Do you do a lot of around town? The charging system on the 650 wasn't really much better, They change the permanent magnet\ altgernator with one that needs carbon brushes.and of course solid state reg/rct unit. I had a CB650 Custom and my brother a CB650Z Euro style one.

A battery tender might be the way to go if you are doing regular short trips with the headlight on.

I wonder what the DIY upgrade is on my bike. I have a light switch I put in I can turn off whenever

That was standard in a lot of market. Both mine and my little bros had headlight on/off switches.

Back then here in NZ the compulsory headlight on policy had not been put in to place. I don't legibly have to have my headlight on while riding because of its age. I choose to though. I'd rather make it easy as possible for other road users to see me.

The three LED driving light unit is brilliant. And I mean that literally. A lot of other road users will pull to the left when they spot me in their rear view mirror making passing a breeze. I always wave to acknowledge their kind actions and get a smile or wave back. It is the right thing to do I feel:)

I think I once looked for those but didn't find one or maybe it was too expensive. Link me the cheapest one you know of would ya?

[caluser2000]

I believe in folks finding their own stuff. Mine is Whites branded. Cost me nz$25 and I bought it at the local Honda shop.So it didn't cost much at all for the job it does.

I left the two leads to the LED unit long enough to sit the bikini fairing on the front mud guard resting against the fork tube rubbers. So no need to disconnect it from inside the headlight shell if I wanted to work around the switch/instrument area of the bike. 

[juntjoo]

I believe in folks finding their own stuff. Mine is Whites branded. Cost me nz$25 and I bought it at the local Honda shop.So it didn't cost much at all for the job it does.

I left the two leads to the LED unit long enough to sit the bikini fairing on the front mud guard resting against the fork tube rubbers. So no need to disconnect it from inside the headlight shell if I wanted to work around the switch/instrument area of the bike.

Oh I was thinking you were talking about the headlight

[caluser2000]

I believe in folks finding their own stuff. Mine is Whites branded. Cost me nz$25 and I bought it at the local Honda shop.So it didn't cost much at all for the job it does.

I left the two leads to the LED unit long enough to sit the bikini fairing on the front mud guard resting against the fork tube rubbers. So no need to disconnect it from inside the headlight shell if I wanted to work around the switch/instrument area of the bike.

Oh I was thinking you were talking about the headlight

Just change the H4 bulb of a LED one. Around $10us on Amazon. I had two sent to me for nz$40 to my door in less than a week 4 months ago.

[juntjoo]

I believe in folks finding their own stuff. Mine is Whites branded. Cost me nz$25 and I bought it at the local Honda shop.So it didn't cost much at all for the job it does.

I left the two leads to the LED unit long enough to sit the bikini fairing on the front mud guard resting against the fork tube rubbers. So no need to disconnect it from inside the headlight shell if I wanted to work around the switch/instrument area of the bike.

Oh I was thinking you were talking about the headlight

Just change the H4 bulb of a LED one. Around $10us on Amazon. I had two sent to me for nz$40 to my door in less than a week 4 months ago.

sweet. Thanks!

[caluser2000]

I believe in folks finding their own stuff. Mine is Whites branded. Cost me nz$25 and I bought it at the local Honda shop.So it didn't cost much at all for the job it does.

I left the two leads to the LED unit long enough to sit the bikini fairing on the front mud guard resting against the fork tube rubbers. So no need to disconnect it from inside the headlight shell if I wanted to work around the switch/instrument area of the bike.

Oh I was thinking you were talking about the headlight

Just change the H4 bulb of a LED one. Around $10us on Amazon. I had two sent to me for nz$40 to my door in less than a week 4 months ago.

sweet. Thanks!

You are quite welcome.

Sometimes we can over think things. You know, like motorcycle tire pressures

[scunny]

"Do you do a lot of around town? The charging system on the 650 wasn't really much better, They change the permanent magnet\ altgernator with one that needs carbon brushes.and of course solid state reg/rct unit. I had a CB650 Custom and my brother a CB650Z Euro style one."
I will have to disagree with that. My 650Z starts charging just above idle,(with headlight off) I was worried about the 650's rumoured charging woes, so installed a voltmeter from a CB900, but I can see if you just putt about with the headlight on, it could be an issue. Keep the engine in it's sweet spot and no problem.

[caluser2000]

You missed out "the lot of riding around with headlight always on" bit.

DOHC900/750s along with SOHC 650s batteries do not last long with a lot of around town headlights always on riding from my own experience riding them. Those that didn't have headlight on/off install switches to turn the headlight off like I have with my current  1998 XF650.

[scunny]

Yeah, I mentioned the headlight off. I will have to do a test ride this weekend and take notice of the voltage readings as I go. Probably have to verify the voltmeter with my my other testers as well.

[caluser2000]

Yeah, I mentioned the headlight off. I will have to do a test ride this weekend and take notice of the voltage readings as I go. Probably have to verify the voltmeter with my my other testers as well.

Do it for a month\. or more without recharging the battery and see what happens.

Cutting out a portion of a quote to try an push your point of veiw is not cool or being honest btw.

[dave500]

dont be scared to ride around town in a lower gear to keep rpm high,dont lug these bikes at less than 2500 and try to keep the revs low,they shine at higher rpm and will be ready to gun it away from trouble if need be,they cruise at 4000,theyll sit at 5000/6000 all day even more,its the way they are.

[juntjoo]

dont be scared to ride around town in a lower gear to keep rpm high,dont lug these bikes at less than 2500 and try to keep the revs low,they shine at higher rpm and will be ready to gun it away from trouble if need be,they cruise at 4000,theyll sit at 5000/6000 all day even more,its the way they are.

I do keep em high. I learned to over time by necessity.

What is it about these engines that "like" higher revs? Or what would be an example of an engine that prefers lower rpms vs why exactly?

[dave500]

these have a short stroke "over square"cylinder where the bore is wider than the stroke,they need rpm to make torque(pulling power),an older design long stroke motor has the bore less than the stroke,this design makes more low rpm pull or torque but wont rev much,they are best left to lug and chug chug chug,old english bikes are an example,or harleys?

[dave500]

a lot goes into the design of engines,not just the bore and stroke but how long the con rod should be,its all very complex or we would all be doing it?

[Kevnz]

I bought my first bike, a 500\4 in 1973, had 8 or sohc\4s since then, and I have never, repeat, never had a charging issue with any of them. I generally ride with economy in mind, so , no higher revs than necessary, just ride normally. Never had a battery go flat on me. Am I just lucky?

[juntjoo]

these have a short stroke "over square"cylinder where the bore is wider than the stroke,they need rpm to make torque(pulling power),an older design long stroke motor has the bore less than the stroke,this design makes more low rpm pull or torque but wont rev much,they are best left to lug and chug chug chug,old english bikes are an example,or harleys?

Ah! Makes perfect sense! I got it. Now as I'm looking over specs that will mean something to me. I guess a dump truck should have  a lower bore to stroke ratio. Idk why. Am I wrong? If I were to reshape my legs for a sprint I'd want em shorter...  It after reaching top speed I'd want to stretch them back out. Inspector Gadget probably had this down

[dave500]

leverage vs speed?most engines these days are over square,its the percentage though.

[Kevnz]

Used to run Jags in the day. They were undersquare, 106mm stroke. Only revved to 5500, but had great torque down low and great for overtaking. No need to change down. IMO, torque is more relevant to road performance than power. It's all very well having heaps of horsepower, but if you have to be in the right gear to access it, often a passing opportunity is lost whereas with torque, just bury it. My boss had a 535 BMW which was a goer, but on a busy road, my 3.8 Mk2 Jag would eat it.

[juntjoo]

Used to run Jags in the day. They were undersquare, 106mm stroke. Only revved to 5500, but had great torque down low and great for overtaking. No need to change down. IMO, torque is more relevant to road performance than power. It's all very well having heaps of horsepower, but if you have to be in the right gear to access it, often a passing opportunity is lost whereas with torque, just bury it. My boss had a 535 BMW which was a goer, but on a busy road, my 3.8 Mk2 Jag would eat it.

Ah, the inverse relationship between reliance on shifting and torque I think you're talking about., at least that's what I'm picking up. I kinda get though but it's a little complicated if you've not fully understood engines. Hence all the various characteristics of each car or bike. I've been enjoying my high revving 4 banger, and I've actually always had them in my Japanese cars/trucks but now I'm curious about these more torqy ones you speak of. I'm guessing V engines introduce this more. And then those flat ones like what are they, the Valkarie and...the other big Honda one. Big ol cruiser.

[dave500]

add in power to weight.

[caluser2000]

dont be scared to ride around town in a lower gear to keep rpm high,dont lug these bikes at less than 2500 and try to keep the revs low,they shine at higher rpm and will be ready to gun it away from trouble if need be,they cruise at 4000,theyll sit at 5000/6000 all day even more,its the way they are.

Dead right. I'm in the 2000-3500rpm range around town.on the 550 in 3nd-4th. Never go in to top gear around town at all.

[Deltarider]

I bought my first bike, a 500\4 in 1973, had 8 or sohc\4s since then, and I have never, repeat, never had a charging issue with any of them. I generally ride with economy in mind, so , no higher revs than necessary, just ride normally. Never had a battery go flat on me. Am I just lucky?

Kevnz, it's just normal. I have thought a lot about this presumed 'insufficient charging system'. You probably have read my comment a dozen times already, so I'm not going to repeat myself. I have given some tips in the past and I specifically wonder if any has fitted a relay triggered by the neutral light so at stops like traffic lights the headlamp would switch to pilot light.
Recently I did some more thinking (always dangerous ) and I wonder if prior to depleting their battery (again), these riders did a lot of 'maintenance' with the bike idling. If they had the bike idling for too long and then start riding, you could still be out of power, if you have to wait at a few to many traffic lights. I myself never had a problem and always return to the garage with a better charged battery than I departed with (oh dear, there I go again. Please excuse me for repeating myself again here).

[caluser2000]

But you and your alter ego are "special" Deltarider"

[Deltarider]

Maybe go for a ride again, Caluser, but please ride safely and don't fall off 'cause we need you here.

[caluser2000]

Maybe go for a ride again, Caluser, but please ride safely and don't fall off 'cause we need you here.

A lot of use don't have the advantage of using an autoban on a daily basis.

And yes I will be going for a ride today. Thank you very much for suggesting that.

At least in NZ you don't have to go too far to find decent riding roads instead of riding on autobans on a regular basis. I imagine it must be boooooooring to say the least lol.