Author Topic: Hesitation on Acceleration plus Excessive Backfire on Deacceleration  (Read 8410 times)

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Offline Alan F.

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Re: Hesitation on Acceleration plus Excessive Backfire on Deacceleration
« Reply #100 on: June 07, 2021, 09:13:08 AM »
TT, I don't think I've ever read a better or simpler explanation of how and why to shim your points plate when you've run out of adjustment, thanks.

I'm looking for 'clear tube method' threads that contain no arguments (but it's not easy, but maybe I'll get lucky)
I'll post them all here.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,151263.msg1727566.html#msg1727566
« Last Edit: June 07, 2021, 03:38:48 PM by Alan F. »

Offline PeWe

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Re: Hesitation on Acceleration plus Excessive Backfire on Deacceleration
« Reply #101 on: June 07, 2021, 09:45:08 AM »
Point improvement described here too.
https://motorcycleproject.com/text/sohcign.html
My K6 had too wide hole for plate by the 3 bosses holding it. Point gap changed when loosen the screws holding the plate. Never ending adjustment.

I had to hammer each to swell. Point sat in place, not tightened. Hammered all 3 as equal I could in circles, a little on each around until plate did not move sideways. 
Straight on, not from side risking cracking a boss.

My K2 cases needed a little. My extra 1975 cases are tight. Tested both TEC plate and Dyna-S, no sideway play.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Hesitation on Acceleration plus Excessive Backfire on Deacceleration
« Reply #102 on: June 07, 2021, 03:11:17 PM »
TT, I don't think I've ever read a better or simpler explanation of how and why to shim your points plate when you've run out of adjustment, thanks.

Thanks for the compliment, Alan.
Cheers!
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline pjlogue

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Re: Hesitation on Acceleration plus Excessive Backfire on Deacceleration
« Reply #103 on: June 08, 2021, 02:28:13 AM »
YoungBlood,  For a clear tube float level check you can use some aquarium air line tubing (pet supply area at Walmart) and then take a Bic lighter and very carefully heat and gently stretch the tubing at 18" from the end so the tubing just necks down a little.  Let it cool in this position and then cut it at the center of the necked down area.  Do this to another length so you  end up with four lengths of tubing, each with at least one end necked down.

Make sure your bike is parked on a level surface or your carb rack is level (if carbs removed from the bike).  I think you said you are in an apartment complex.  You should do this away from  any busy areas.  It can be messy and smelly.  Also make sure you are away from any ignition sources like people smoking!!!

Now, with the fuel lever off at the tank, unscrew each carb drain plug.  Take the necked down end of your tube and "screw" it into the threaded hole where the drain plug was.  Make sure it's in there snug.  You might want to put some rags under your carbs to catch the inevitable drips.  Route each tube up and secure it next to the respective carb body it came from.  Turn the gas on at the tank and let the bowls fill.  Measure each level in the tubing where it is next to the very bottom of the carb body/gasket interface.  The level in each tube should be ~2mm below the carb body/gasket interface.  If you make adjustments and take another level reading be sure there is no air bubbles in the clear tube as it will effect the reading.

This is a tedious process as you have to remove the float bowls each time to make an adjustment but it is well worth doing because once properly set you can be confident each fuel level in each bowl is correct.

-P.

Offline YoungBlood

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Re: Hesitation on Acceleration plus Excessive Backfire on Deacceleration
« Reply #104 on: June 08, 2021, 05:48:32 PM »
Everyone, thank you! TwoTired, I second Alan's motion, very simple and concise explanation on shimming the timing plate. I am going to follow suit, once.... TEC contact points for 1 & 4 and 2 & 3 arrive, OEM NOS! Plus, two TEC NOS condensers! I'm a bit giddy to get those installed, and in the meantime figure out where TDC is, and secure my advancer mechanism to that position against the engine block.

PeWe, I am happy to hear that there are two opinions on the matter of needing a tighter fit on the bosses and plate to stop the contact points from shifting. I'm a bit worried to take a hammer to it, I will try the shim option first. 

Alan, I am going to print that degree wheel out, cut it, and glue/tape it to a piece of beefy cardboard. Or perhaps a piece of sheet metal. Any creative ideas? I've never heard of this part before, I'll need to google the tool itself. Hopefully a washer will do in securing the make-shift deg. wheel from shifting around.

Thanks pjlogue, I am also going to follow suit with what you wrote and Alan's linked thread on float levels.

I am slowly working up my ambition the next few days. Over the weekend I am hoping to have TDC found, new ignition parts installed, and the fuel level configured + adjusted for the bowls.

Peace.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 05:53:29 PM by YoungBlood »
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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Hesitation on Acceleration plus Excessive Backfire on Deacceleration
« Reply #105 on: June 08, 2021, 08:05:43 PM »
ok, this thread has gone way off track...
1. Your carbs don't use the washer and oring on the mixture screw.  No cb750 roundtops use these parts.  The fact that they were even in your kits should indicate the total lack of usefulness of aftermarket carb kits.
2.  Wash that 20w50 out of your air filter...way tooo heavy.  If you don't have the proper k and n filter oil, go without oil on the filter.
3.  Where are you buying these crap condensors from?  They are clearly shot and thus so are your points by now probably.  DON'T BUY DAICHII ignition parts.  They won't work for long, if at all....mostly not at all.
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Offline Alan F.

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Re: Hesitation on Acceleration plus Excessive Backfire on Deacceleration
« Reply #106 on: June 09, 2021, 03:23:46 AM »
I was wondering if that oil could be contributing to the lean condition, the k&n oil is thinner than air tool oil right?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Hesitation on Acceleration plus Excessive Backfire on Deacceleration
« Reply #107 on: June 09, 2021, 07:20:28 AM »
Over oiling a foam filter fills channels that pass air, causing restriction, and a deepening of the carb throat vacuum, resulting in an over rich condition, the same  way a clogged filter does.  However, this would make ALL the plugs sooty equally.  This bike shows different deposit patterns on all plugs, and it is not on any sort of ignition coil boundaries.  While there may well be an ignition issue,  that doesn’t cause carbs to deliver differing amounts of fuel/air.

Much nicer to troubleshoot a bike with only one problem to solve.

Anyway foam filters need very little oil to do it’s job.  The air flow through a foam filter is a tortured pathway. Air diverts and particles ram into the diversions.  The oil just makes the pathway walls “sticky”.  As the particles are small, just a tiny film is all that’s required, and thin oil works just fine.  I prefer the K & N  or Uni spray oil, not only because of correct viscosity,  but that is has the correct formulation to not deteriorate the foam itself, as some oils with additives can.

Lastly, after cleaning, drying, and applying the oil, squeezing and rag dabbing the foam removes any excess , unnecessary oil to allow the filter to flow properly.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline YoungBlood

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Re: Hesitation on Acceleration plus Excessive Backfire on Deacceleration
« Reply #108 on: June 09, 2021, 09:31:25 AM »
Sean, you’re right, I already got some H and N oil and cleaner. It’s drying at the moment. I didn’t know why those parts were included, and I do not trust the supplier. I bought the kit when I bought the bike, I’m learning. Both the condensers and kit came from 4into1, I was again ignorant of the poor quality. The fact the replacement condensers went bad so quick, I already know not to buy them again. Hence I have TEC parts coming from EBay.

Thanks TwoTired for the explanation, I’m going to use the rag to dab up excess oil. I also see and understand why it would add to a rich mixture. Less air from heavier oil. I’m going to print out a degree wheel Alan supplied and use a screw driver to find top dead center. I don’t have a saw to cut the porcelain from a spark plug. If I feel there’s error with the screw driver, I’ll figure a way to cut it.


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Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Hesitation on Acceleration plus Excessive Backfire on Deacceleration
« Reply #109 on: June 09, 2021, 09:41:57 AM »
If I understand correctly you have aftermarket carb brass parts in the carbs. If they aren't Keihin parts they tend to be all but impossible to properly tune... Only exception is some of the float needs are Ok,but there are some out there that are too short causing flat settings to be off... Overall, aftermarket brass parts are to be avoided like the plague.
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline YoungBlood

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Re: Hesitation on Acceleration plus Excessive Backfire on Deacceleration
« Reply #110 on: June 09, 2021, 12:19:48 PM »
The only after market parts still in there are the needles, (edit: float needle and float valve), and in the #2 carb an aftermarket air screw spring I cannot get out.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 01:24:43 PM by YoungBlood »
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Offline YoungBlood

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Re: Hesitation on Acceleration plus Excessive Backfire on Deacceleration
« Reply #111 on: June 09, 2021, 01:30:48 PM »
So I made a degree wheel and taped four corners onto an old cd. I was able to secure in just behind the washer of the 23 mm nut. Sat in there like a charm. I then took some wire and bent up one end, and stuffed it into the top boss screw hole. This served as my marker.
I took out the 1 and 4 spark plugs and loosened two and three. I put a screw driver, the adapter piece that has two different ends into the spark hole on top of the piston. The side I had inserted was a flat head screw driver. I rotated my crank to the fire position, inserted the screw driver, and read the letter stampings on the side for a marker on the screw driver. As it reached the highest position, I made a note of the degree. Then kept going until it descended a hair. I took that degree reading, divided it by two and found tdc. I was untrustworthy with myself so I repeated this process several times. Each time I found tdc to be a bit (about a degree) retarded from the actual T marker. Knowing this was the fully counter clockwise direction of the slop or play in the advancer I decided it must be wearing unidirectional in the clockwise position. This is just as PeWe said.
Next I went to do the timing. I didn’t need to do the shim technique because my points do not adjust, I checked. I also don’t understand why a shim would be used in setting the timing because I have to rotate the main timing plate regardless.
I’m doing the timing, I decided to keep the small 10mm nut a bit loose, I then used a 23 mm socket, and applied pressure against the nut when rotating so it did not slip off the holding tab. I would rotate past the fire mark, into the retarded timing zone about three degrees. I then would take off my 23 mm socket, and adjust the timing mechanism counterclockwise. Thus finding the true Fire mark. From here I adjusted the main plate until my 12v light would kick off from the on position. Tighten everything down, and double check my work. Same process for the 2/3.
I knew my 1/4 condenser was bad, so I threw another back on.
I put the k and n filter back in, cleaned and oiled, made sure the air screws were 1 turn out from seating.
Symptoms the bike currently displays:
Past 1/2 turn of throttle, whether I’m in any gear, the bike starts to hesitate. Next I will check the fuel levels with the clear tube method, but tomorrow. I’ve got to get to work tonight. Also, all the oem parts will be in by the weekend, so hopefully I will be able to put those on, correct the fuel level of the floats, and mix some jb weld with that other stuff 2Tired mentioned to secure the advancer in the fully clockwise position.
2Tired, if I do not secure that mechanism in place, I run the risk of the advancer advancing at the wrong time and position on the crank shaft. Correct? I say this because the crank shafts torque shifts the mechanism back into the clockwise wearing position. I think I may get an metal tube of the right diameter ~4 mm, with a 3mm id and cut it in half to push the advancer to stay in the counter clockwise position. Opinions?
Here is a picture of where I was finding TDC to be approximately, keep in mind this is at the full clock-wise position of the play in the dowel hole. When moving it over counter-clockwise the mechanism advances about three degrees. Still retarded from the actual T mark, however, I knew this is not possible and must be just the few variance of error I had with using a cut out degree wheel and a screw driver. I also noticed that on the pin with the spring, there was a red mark. I did not make that mark, but I used an etcher to scratch a line. Both are very close to one another. Perhaps a PO had done the same technique?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2021, 01:43:27 PM by YoungBlood »
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Offline Alan F.

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Re: Hesitation on Acceleration plus Excessive Backfire on Deacceleration
« Reply #112 on: June 09, 2021, 02:56:25 PM »
Sounds good.

I also noticed that on the pin with the spring, there was a red mark. I did not make that mark, but I used an etcher to scratch a line. Both are very close to one another. Perhaps a PO had done the same technique?

Yup, maybe. I like marks that won't wash or rub off too. You'll know soon if you've discovered a PO secret.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2021, 02:58:55 PM by Alan F. »

Offline PeWe

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Re: Hesitation on Acceleration plus Excessive Backfire on Deacceleration
« Reply #113 on: June 10, 2021, 03:10:47 AM »
Needle replaced with aftermarket  if I understood correctly. Aftermarket needles often mentioned to be not good, different taper.
If thicker at same lift as stock, engine will run leaner. Richer if thinner needle.
How the taper change is a very important detail and designed for the engine. 

Wrong shape on needle might never be possible to make engine to run correct. Adjust for a specific lift to get it right and it will run bad before and after. Maybe possible to correct with pilot jet and air screw for lower lifts, main jet for the transition needle area- main.

My CB750 stock carbs had no wear visible on needles affecting the result  after almost 100.000 km.
First half with stock airfilter, rest with pods.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 03:24:04 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Hesitation on Acceleration plus Excessive Backfire on Deacceleration
« Reply #114 on: June 10, 2021, 06:23:52 AM »
Next I went  to do the timing. I didn’t need to do the shim technique because my points do not adjust, I checked.

Yes they do.  1-4 adjusts to set the point gap/dwell.  Changing the gap also changes the timing.  You do this first.  And unless your points plate fits perfectly into those engine bosses, loosening those three screws that fixes plate rotation will allow the plate to move laterally and change the point gap.

I also don’t understand why a shim would be used in setting the timing because I have to rotate the main timing plate regardless.

If you want to experience why,  then either block open both points with wood wedge so the rubbing block doesn’t make any contact with the cam.  Or remove both point sets from the plate.  Return the plate to the bosses  with the three screws loose and push plate sideways to determine the limits of lateral movement (that’s different from rotational movement).  If you have great parts, you won’t need to shim the plate. Otherwise now is the time to insert shims to find out what size you need later when setting gap and timing whenever those three mount screws allow the plate to move about in those bosses.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline YoungBlood

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Re: Hesitation on Acceleration plus Excessive Backfire on Deacceleration
« Reply #115 on: June 10, 2021, 01:22:53 PM »
TwoTired, once again, thank you. In the case of my timing plate, I will need a very thin "finger" to shim the plate. I set the point on 1/4, then set the timing, and then rechecked the point gap. The gap was still at .013, however, I will try out the shim technique when I get the new parts in.
Today I checked the float bowl levels with the clear tube method. My barracuda vacuum gauge had another size of adapters for the vacuum port that fit the drain ports well enough to not leak with the tubes. 1 2 and 4 were too low. I adjusted all of them to be approximately 3mm below the gasket seat of the bowl.
I also believe I have narrowed down what the problem is. TwoTired, you noticed that I was driving at low rpms in the recording. Precisely because the bike cannot run higher rpms without hesitating and losing power. I think the cause of this is due to the slack in the advancer mechanism. The mechanism will slop over to the counter-clock-wise wear in the hole. It does not matter if I put it fully clockwise, it will shift back. This is leading the advance mechanism to adjust the timing/firing EARLY. When it is slopped to the right, the timing is actually retarded. When slopped clockwise, the correct position, the timing is accurate. Thus the bike is running incorrectly at higher rpms because it is advancing early. If someone else could provide a thorough explanation on this, I would appreciate it. Just my two-cents thinking about everything. Friday I am going to JB weld the advancer to the clock-wise position. By Saturday I should have the stock condensers and the 2/3 contacts in.
I think my bike problems are about to rescind this weekend.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Hesitation on Acceleration plus Excessive Backfire on Deacceleration
« Reply #116 on: June 10, 2021, 01:59:13 PM »
If you can find brass tubing to cut up and fit to take up the slop in the advance, that might be easier to accomplish than the JB weld and mold release technique.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Alan F.

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Re: Hesitation on Acceleration plus Excessive Backfire on Deacceleration
« Reply #117 on: June 10, 2021, 02:12:20 PM »
YB I agree with everything you just wrote except for going with JBweld as your A-plan, I'm with TT in favor of finding some sort of metallic ring, or even a split ring to shim your advancer into the center of the slop area, or a crescent moon shaped spacer to offset the advancer pin at the full counterclockwise end of the slop.

I'll poke around with the search function and see what I can come up with.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,176615.msg2053586.html#msg2053586

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,176623.msg2053639.html#msg2053639

« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 02:22:38 PM by Alan F. »

Offline YoungBlood

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Re: Hesitation on Acceleration plus Excessive Backfire on Deacceleration
« Reply #118 on: June 10, 2021, 02:56:31 PM »
Great, thanks guys. JB mold is the last plan, the copper/brass tube method it is! Also, thank you for finding the Hondaman post, Alan. Very helpful, but it also is leading me to have doubts again about whether fully counter clockwise was TDC.

Here is an enlarged picture of the dowel hole on the crank shaft. Sure doesn’t look too oval, but a touch, just a minor touch to the CW location.

I realized I have a pipe cutter, forgot, I’m going to use it on the porcelain of an old spark plug and try to make a piston stop. I’d feel a whole lot better using a piston stop to find TDC than the screw driver method. Then again, I’m having a case of the doubts because this seems to be a high risk procedure if I install a tube, and I cannot get the thing out!
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Offline YoungBlood

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Re: Hesitation on Acceleration plus Excessive Backfire on Deacceleration
« Reply #119 on: June 10, 2021, 04:13:35 PM »
I stopped at HomesDepot, I didn’t have enough time to hunt down stuff. I quickly grabbed a couple aluminum spacers of 3/16 inch. Unfortunately four mm does not have an even conversion to inches. But I am going to hunt around for a copper coupler of 3/16, I figure they exist for high pressure lines on ACs. Unless anyone thinks aluminum will hold up?
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Hesitation on Acceleration plus Excessive Backfire on Deacceleration
« Reply #120 on: June 10, 2021, 04:31:01 PM »
If you stop the movement, the wear should also stop.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Hesitation on Acceleration plus Excessive Backfire on Deacceleration
« Reply #121 on: June 10, 2021, 05:32:15 PM »
I have seen that type of slop on several cb750 advancers.  I once played around with trying it shifted one way or the other, even centered...and guess what the result was!....no noticeable change in performance.   I would not waste your time.  Your problem is elsewhere.
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Offline Alan F.

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Re: Hesitation on Acceleration plus Excessive Backfire on Deacceleration
« Reply #122 on: June 10, 2021, 05:45:54 PM »
The old plugs from yesterday, the one’s I swapped out for new. D8EA. Plug 1 is a black white brown type porcelain. Two is black. Plug 3’s porcelain is a reddish brown if you can’t tell. Four is black and grey.

Today I checked the float bowl levels with the clear tube method.
1 2 and 4 were too low.

3 was the least fouled previously, with floats readjusted and viewed via clear tube there may be a change in rideability.

Offline jonda500

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Re: Hesitation on Acceleration plus Excessive Backfire on Deacceleration
« Reply #123 on: June 10, 2021, 07:12:08 PM »
I have seen that type of slop on several cb750 advancers.  I once played around with trying it shifted one way or the other, even centered...and guess what the result was!....no noticeable change in performance.   I would not waste your time.  Your problem is elsewhere.
+1 wholeheartedly agree - worrying about that hole is a pointless waste of your time!
John
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Offline YoungBlood

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Re: Hesitation on Acceleration plus Excessive Backfire on Deacceleration
« Reply #124 on: June 10, 2021, 08:43:29 PM »
How so? If the play is significant, which it is, then timing will be set off, and furthermore the advancement will advance at the wrong position.
Also, if you were to make all these adjustments, you would have to reset your timing each time. Unless you made a marking for your timing plate against the bosses. Thus you already had the timing set correctly, and you simply slopped the advancer in another direction. I don’t understand how a 3/4 degree slop would not lead to timing errors if not positioned correctly. Honda man stated the bikes were designed with +/- 1-2 degrees for the timing marks. If you surpass 2 degrees, I assume, there would be error. Again, I would appreciate a thorough explanation on why or why not this would not effect performance.
Side note: bike back fires like hell. Tomorrow I’m securing my advancer CCW  out of its slip position of CW. I agree Sean that my problem is in another location, but in addition to this. I am simply dealing with a problem I noticed, and I would feel more comfortable without slop when setting my timing. This is not something I can simply take someone’s word for. The bike is advancing, spinning on the crank, three plus degrees early. I assume this would cause a problem.
When you're going through hell, give it some more gas.