Author Topic: PD46B carb adjustment screw  (Read 812 times)

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Offline janne_83

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PD46B carb adjustment screw
« on: June 01, 2021, 12:04:49 PM »
Hi all, a simple question about the screw seen in the picture; it is a part nbr. 16016-393-004 but what does it actually do? I think it’s called ”air mixture” screw but I think it’s on the wrong side of the carb to be an air screw. So does it actually control the overall mixture and what happens when it’s more loose/more tight? Is it for idle only or for all use?

The reason I ask is that my bike is getting too much air at the moment. Idle is fine but when opening the gas fast the engine almost goes out. Not getting the high revs.

I tested and blocked the top of the air filter with a cloth (see pics) and it worked; response to the gas is normal and the bike revs really good. The aftermarket filter allows too much air through.

So could I start adjusting the screws and which way to solve the issue or is it something that will not affect at all to this?

Offline BrickWoll

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Re: PD46B carb adjustment screw
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2021, 01:47:13 PM »
Just happened to be turning that screw this weekend!  On the PD46, that's the pilot screw.  Same as air mixture, but works on the fuel side of the carbs instead.  Carbs will have one or the other.  1 1/2 turn out per manual. These carbs are on the 77/78 and are shown specifically in part 10 of the manual (Addendum).

To clarify: regulates fuel instead of air - but the effect is the same.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2021, 01:50:31 PM by BrickWoll »
'77 CB550 K3

Offline bryanj

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Re: PD46B carb adjustment screw
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2021, 02:19:47 PM »
That screw has a very fine tip DO NOT screw it in tight, justlightly till it touches also there is a spring, washer and tiny O ring on there and some bits regularly vanish. Onlyplace i found the Oring and washer is at Sirius in Caada in bags of 50
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: PD46B carb adjustment screw
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2021, 04:07:13 PM »
That screw is an Idle Mixture Screw (IMS).

It directly regulates the emusified fuel coming from the pilot jet system just as it gets delivered into the carb throat.

As it determines the minimum fuel the engine needs to idle, and does not shut off when the throttle is opened it has some effect on mixtures at other throttle positions.  But, it is not a lot.

Be aware that these mechanical slide carbs have no accelerator pump.  When whacking the throttle the carb throat pressure nearly equalizes with the inrush of air to that of outside atmospheric pressure and reduces the differential across the fuel delivery jets which reduces fuel volume delivered.  More air, less fuel, makes the mixture very lean and can nearly starve the engine.  It isn't until the engine gains RPM that this differential is restored with venturi effect.  So, correct throttle operation is to use throttle about halfway, until the RPMs climb and then you can twist more and more all the way to WOT.

The tuning for these carbs requires the idle mixture to be a bit over rich.  So, when the slides are raised the mixture can still make some power for the engine to pick up.

These carbs were originally married to a high pressure exhaust system which rots out or is replaced with something deemed "cooler".  Anyway the back pressure helped to enrich the idle mix, helping out throttle twist behavior.

Anyway, even when properly tuned, you could never whack the throttle full open from idle without wheeze and die behavior.  However, in stock configuration you could whack throttle halfway in any gear and the engine would reliably pick up power, even if only slowly, under load.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Deltarider

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Re: PD46B carb adjustment screw
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2021, 12:28:14 AM »
That screw has a very fine tip DO NOT screw it in tight, justlightly till it touches also there is a spring, washer and tiny O ring on there and some bits regularly vanish.
Yes, be very careful with these parts. In case you're interested, this is what they look like.
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Offline janne_83

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Re: PD46B carb adjustment screw
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2021, 02:06:08 PM »
Thanks once again! Very accurate replies. I appreciate.

I started testing the screws, the starting point was 1,5 turns out, then I turned them 2 turns out, then 2,5 turns out. The situation didn’t get any better, I think it only got worse.

I think I didn’t get any more fuel from the carbs to balance the mixture so returned the screws to 1,5 turns out -position, stuck the rag on top of the airbox and took it for a ride. It was good! It was very good. The bike is better than it was before the carb rebuild and now my only problem is that it will not accelerate without the rag in the airbox. In addition, I think the engine got a bit hot but I can’t remember how hot it was earlier so I really can’t say... and it was a hot day, 23 celcius as I rode.. and my speed was around 40-50km/h so it couldn’t be cooled down.

I can ride with the rag in the airbox, my only worry is possibly running too lean. I think I need a mechanic.

Offline goodtryer

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Re: PD46B carb adjustment screw
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2021, 04:21:30 PM »
You can check the color of the spark plugs as an indicator of lean/rich. They should be a light gray. There are reference pictures on the site if you search.

Also be aware that air can enter from hardened/cracked/misaligned intake runners between the head and carbs.
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Offline janne_83

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Re: PD46B carb adjustment screw
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2021, 11:51:07 PM »
You can check the color of the spark plugs as an indicator of lean/rich. They should be a light gray. There are reference pictures on the site if you search.

Also be aware that air can enter from hardened/cracked/misaligned intake runners between the head and carbs.

That is true and the situation was earlier like this; misaligned rubbers, one broken rubber, diplaced seal between the airbox and the "rubber chamber", leaks in all carb bowls (not sure if this creates an air leak also), leaks on the intake rubbers etc. All of this now fixed.

Now that I think of it, I think before the parts that were fixed there was only a little vacuum because there were so many leaks. Now it sucks like a Hoover so the nature of the bike changed a lot after all these years, I noticed this last night while riding. So when I also consider the fact that the exhaust is not original (I've got 4-1 pipe) I'm confused . It even might be possible that the previous owner has tested different exhausts and found out that with all the leaks the 4-1 exhaust is the best... maybe

Gonna check the spark plug colour soon.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: PD46B carb adjustment screw
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2021, 07:38:28 AM »
The original pipes were 4 into 4, and quite high pressure.  This helped Honda meet hydrocarbon emission requirements, as it withholds some gasses to be burned again on the next firing.  The goal was for a “lean burn” motor which was all the rage back then.  Anyway, the reburned gasses addition meant less fuel was needed from the carbs to idle and get engine pickup from throttle.  It also meant that this motor runs hotter than prior carb Style models, as a hotter engine also is better at a complete burn cycle efficiency.  (EPA goal). Because of all this an exhaust change to a low back pressure exhaust makes stock carb tuning too lean , resulting in an even hotter running engine, and poor response to throttle twist.  Note that these mechanical slide carbs were never expected to perform with a full open throttle whack, as they have no accelerator pump, as the 750’s did in this era.  So, the sudden inrush of air with no additional fuel makes the engine wheeze and die instead of pick up and give power.  The stock configuration would pick up properly with up to one half throttle twist and as the engine picked up, you could progressively add more throttle.

For these reasons when you put a 4 to 1 on this bike, ALL the fuel metering jets in the carb need to become larger, with the possible exception of the pilots.  The main jet needs increasing, and the jet needles need to be raised to get the mixture back close to what the stock configuration of the bike had with original exhaust.

Lastly, the filter box had a cover and curved horn like the F models had, but with an additional plate restrictor to narrow the inlet.  This has the effect of raising the vacuum level in the carb throat, and causes more fuel flow through all the fuel metering orifices in the carb.  So, when you remove that cover, guess what?  With less fuel flow, the carb delivers less fuel, and the engine goes leaner for that change, too.  Your rag is just a restrictor to get a deeper vacuum in the carbthroat, which enriches the fuel mix.  But, you may think about calibrating your rag to maintain consistent mixture authority in the future, if you aren’t up to doing a proper carb rejet to compensate for the changes you made to the bike.  Oh,  and that rag will also choke of max air flow to diminish power in the high rpm band of operation, making the bike slower.  This motor likes and needs rpm to give any sort of spirited performance.  It won’t fall far behind 750s if allowed to rev, as it is a lighter and more nibble bike.

Cheers!
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline janne_83

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Re: PD46B carb adjustment screw
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2021, 11:41:41 AM »
TwoTired, this makes perfect sense and it’s what I thought has happened with the renovation. The bike has had the same exhaust and 90 jets and still has, but with all the airleaks fixed, the exhaust steps in to the picture. I guess the situation earlier with the leaks must have been -> less vacuum -> less air -> better mixture -> no problems. So irrationally with air leaking from here and there the result is actually Less Air to carbs..

I never imagined the setting on this side of the carb would affect this much. I’ve seen videos of people putting the pods on or leaving the carbs totally open and stil getting a reasonable result. I never expected this with the stock airbox system.

I forgot to mention I sure do have that curved horn with the grill and it comes on top of that rag. I still need the rag. But the bike seems to function very good with the high revs, at least better than before! I have no complaints about the highs or anything. I think I’m not gonna re-jet the carbs, at least not this summer. Just gonna check the colour of the plugs and enjoy it while it’s better than ever!

Thank you all, you’ve been very helpful!
« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 11:55:25 AM by janne_83 »