Author Topic: cb750k tuning: hard to hold 2000 rpm steady on center stand for tuning  (Read 1176 times)

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Offline joseimport

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my cb750k2 for some reason, always does this but i have no idea if this is normal, as mine is the only one i have ever ridden.

its really hard to hold 2000rpm steady... the bike accelerates pretty good, and idles fine, today i was trying to sync the carbs after bench syncing, checking spark, doing the valves and everything one is supposed to do before the carb sync with a carb syncing tool..

to my surprise all carbs were absolutely in sync. but trying to hold the rpms at 2000 was nearly impossible, just a little twist on the throttle the bike pushes from 1500 to around 2900 rpms in an instant. i can hold 2000 rpms when riding but not in the center stand.

i have been reading a lot but the part that puzzles me the most is tuning the carbs.

my guess from what i know is that maybe i should either raise or lower the clip in the needle. am I correct to assume this?

my idle screws are set to about 3/4 turn for my altitude which is 5252 feet as Mark Paris "hondaman" suggested on a previous post.

any suggestions how to smooth the throttle response from 1200 idle to 3000 rpm? 
1975 cb750k2: ongoing restoration project.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,183427.msg2122966.html#msg2122966

1979 rd400g daytona special: project in pieces.

1987 tr200 fatcat: running, future resto.

Offline joseimport

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On the center stand there is no load on the drivetrain at all I'm curious if this is to be expected or if there's a cause.

These are simple things that you've probably checked but: Does your throttle turn smoothly without any binding? Is there any slack in either of your throttle cables?

it turns smoothly without binding, but the throttle has always been hard to twist, i think the oem return spring is way to hard, but i have read this is normal on this bikes.

but the cables are not new....  this might add to my problem....   

but for example:  from idle to about 1500-1600ish either on the center stand or simply in neutral i can set it at whatever rpm my hand desires.  from then on to 2500 its really hard to hold it steady it just jumps to above 2500 then i have to back it up slowly if i want to hold it below that at any point. then after 2500rpms i can hold it steady at any rev above that.

1975 cb750k2: ongoing restoration project.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,183427.msg2122966.html#msg2122966

1979 rd400g daytona special: project in pieces.

1987 tr200 fatcat: running, future resto.

Offline HondaMan

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I'll bet you $10 (everyone is my witness!) that the springs on the spark advancer are sacked (type AD125, by chance?). The heat cycling has annealed them, making them advance WAY too soon. Nearly 100% of the engines I see now are this way (unless they have less than 5000 miles on them).

To fix: cut off first 1/2 turn of one spring, bend the end back out to hook into the weight again. If it gets better, do the other side. I have one spring minus 1 whole turn and the other minus 1/2 turn on my own K2, have for many years. Solves this problem handily by making the throttle much more linear. Mine had gotten so bad before I did it that pulling away from a stopsign, fully loaded with 2-up and 200 lbs of gear aboard was a dicey proposition! I didn't want to smoke my clutch, so I fixed my spark advancer instead. ;)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2021, 08:05:44 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline joseimport

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I'll bet you $10 (everyone is my witness!) that the springs on th espark advancer are sacked. The heat cycling has annealed them, making them advance WAY too soon. Nearly 100% of the engines I see now are this way (unless they have less than 5000 miles on them).

To fix: cut off first 1/2 turn of one spring, bend the end back out to hook into the weight again. If it gets better, do the other side. I have one spring minus 1 whole turn and the other minus 1/2 turn on my own K2, have for many years. Solves this problem handily by making the throttle much more linear. Mine had gotten so bad before I did it that pulling away from a stopsign, fully loaded with 2-up and 200 lbs of gear aboard was a dicey proposition! I didn't want to smoke my clutch, so I fixed my spark advancer instead. ;)

hey mark

hmmmm....  the advancer is a brand new 4into1 replacement

in a previous post about six months i said i had purchased a replacement spark advancer form 4into1.....  because my original was missing some parts.....  and this was your response

this is the thread:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,184496.msg2136383.html#msg2136383

in the last six months i have ridden the bike only about 200 miles.... so i can say its still pretty brand new

i did follow your instructions.


you still think i should do as you suggest? let me know and thanks for your help.

regards
1975 cb750k2: ongoing restoration project.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,183427.msg2122966.html#msg2122966

1979 rd400g daytona special: project in pieces.

1987 tr200 fatcat: running, future resto.

Offline HondaMan

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I'll bet you $10 (everyone is my witness!) that the springs on th espark advancer are sacked. The heat cycling has annealed them, making them advance WAY too soon. Nearly 100% of the engines I see now are this way (unless they have less than 5000 miles on them).

To fix: cut off first 1/2 turn of one spring, bend the end back out to hook into the weight again. If it gets better, do the other side. I have one spring minus 1 whole turn and the other minus 1/2 turn on my own K2, have for many years. Solves this problem handily by making the throttle much more linear. Mine had gotten so bad before I did it that pulling away from a stopsign, fully loaded with 2-up and 200 lbs of gear aboard was a dicey proposition! I didn't want to smoke my clutch, so I fixed my spark advancer instead. ;)

hey mark

hmmmm....  the advancer is a brand new 4into1 replacement

in a previous post about six months i said i had purchased a replacement spark advancer form 4into1.....  because my original was missing some parts.....  and this was your response

this is the thread:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,184496.msg2136383.html#msg2136383

in the last six months i have ridden the bike only about 200 miles.... so i can say its still pretty brand new

i did follow your instructions.


you still think i should do as you suggest? let me know and thanks for your help.

regards


Ah, the plot sickens...
The spark advancer I just bought from 4into1 had springs so strong that the engine wouldn't advance it even by 4400 RPM! This one is an F3 engine. The 'fix' for it turned out to be in using one of the new springs and one of the original springs on the advancer. It reaches full advance at about 3100-3200 RPM for a more linear throttle response against the lean-burn PD42/b carbs and the F3 cam.

The things that make it jump like that are usually an uneven mix of the spark advance and the fuel: what is physically happening is that it is lean enough at idle, then a bit too lean just above idle (this can happen for a number of reasons) and then too rich, This latter part is what makes it jump up so high in RPM. It can make it a nuisance to ride when carrying heavy loads, due to the 'quick' clutch closure this bike also has.

I tend to first lean out the idle (which I think you have already) and next to back away on the spark advance. The 2 ways to do this are:
1. Stronger advancer spring(s), so long as full advance can still be reached by 3000 RPM where the cam is coming on.
2. Retarded timing, at least for setup and tuning.

If you still have the original springs on the advancer from 4into1, and if they are like the one I just got last month, then what is happening is a buildup of unburned air-fuel mix in the intake tract from the timing being TOO FAR behind, that finally 'takes off' when the advancer reaches about 20 degrees (halfway up the curve). It literally 'clears its throat' right then, much like a dragrace bike with fixed advancer timing, and tends to hang at that speed until the unburned fuel clears away, then it falls back down to the lower speed again, all without moving the throttle. If you're in this situation, try one of the springs from your original advancer and one from 4into1 on that advancer as a starting point to see if it improves. The K2 engine's cam opens earlier than the later bikes (K4 and later), so the spring rate will ultimately need to be somewhere in between the OEM too-soft spring of the AD125 advancer and the stiff one of the 4into1 advancer. This can be obtained by trimming off 1/2 coil from the softer spring at a time and testing. Painful, but only has to be done once.

See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline HondaMan

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I'll bet you $10 (everyone is my witness!) that the springs on th espark advancer are sacked.
I sure hope you pay up…
hey mark

hmmmm....  the advancer is a brand new 4into1 replacement

in a previous post about six months i said i had purchased a replacement spark advancer form 4into1.....  because my original was missing some parts.....  and this was your response

this is the thread:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,184496.msg2136383.html#msg2136383

in the last six months i have ridden the bike only about 200 miles.... so i can say its still pretty brand new

i did follow your instructions.


you still think i should do as you suggest? let me know and thanks for your help.

regards

Oh, yeah: if I end up being wrong about the springs causing it, the SOHC4 treasury will be that much richer!
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline joseimport

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  • 1972 cb750k2
I'll bet you $10 (everyone is my witness!) that the springs on th espark advancer are sacked.
I sure hope you pay up…
hey mark

hmmmm....  the advancer is a brand new 4into1 replacement

in a previous post about six months i said i had purchased a replacement spark advancer form 4into1.....  because my original was missing some parts.....  and this was your response

this is the thread:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,184496.msg2136383.html#msg2136383

in the last six months i have ridden the bike only about 200 miles.... so i can say its still pretty brand new

i did follow your instructions.


you still think i should do as you suggest? let me know and thanks for your help.

regards

Oh, yeah: if I end up being wrong about the springs causing it, the SOHC4 treasury will be that much richer!



thanks for your response, i will do this later today to see how it improves and will let you know, will have to look for the original advancer first, hopefully i will find it easily after a garage move.

1975 cb750k2: ongoing restoration project.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,183427.msg2122966.html#msg2122966

1979 rd400g daytona special: project in pieces.

1987 tr200 fatcat: running, future resto.

Offline joseimport

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  • *
  • Posts: 63
  • 1972 cb750k2
I'll bet you $10 (everyone is my witness!) that the springs on the spark advancer are sacked (type AD125, by chance?). The heat cycling has annealed them, making them advance WAY too soon. Nearly 100% of the engines I see now are this way (unless they have less than 5000 miles on them).

To fix: cut off first 1/2 turn of one spring, bend the end back out to hook into the weight again. If it gets better, do the other side. I have one spring minus 1 whole turn and the other minus 1/2 turn on my own K2, have for many years. Solves this problem handily by making the throttle much more linear. Mine had gotten so bad before I did it that pulling away from a stopsign, fully loaded with 2-up and 200 lbs of gear aboard was a dicey proposition! I didn't want to smoke my clutch, so I fixed my spark advancer instead. ;)

well I'll be damned,  you sir are of great help....where do you want the 10 bucks? 
i switched the springs from the old spark advancer and placed them into the 4into1.  just by looking at them you can see that the original advancer's spring is thicker.

the throttle smoothed out on the first 3000 ish rpms....   before, you would always feel the bike trying to rev from 1900rpms.  as you can imagine on first gear it felt horrible at stop lights and slow traffic.. the bike trying to push...  i could not hold 2000 rpms steady.

thanks for your help...

i will buy your transistored ignition in the following months i promise.

1975 cb750k2: ongoing restoration project.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,183427.msg2122966.html#msg2122966

1979 rd400g daytona special: project in pieces.

1987 tr200 fatcat: running, future resto.

Offline evanphi

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I'll bet you $10 (everyone is my witness!) that the springs on the spark advancer are sacked (type AD125, by chance?). The heat cycling has annealed them, making them advance WAY too soon. Nearly 100% of the engines I see now are this way (unless they have less than 5000 miles on them).

To fix: cut off first 1/2 turn of one spring, bend the end back out to hook into the weight again. If it gets better, do the other side. I have one spring minus 1 whole turn and the other minus 1/2 turn on my own K2, have for many years. Solves this problem handily by making the throttle much more linear. Mine had gotten so bad before I did it that pulling away from a stopsign, fully loaded with 2-up and 200 lbs of gear aboard was a dicey proposition! I didn't want to smoke my clutch, so I fixed my spark advancer instead. ;)

well I'll be damned,  you sir are of great help....where do you want the 10 bucks? 



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