Topic: SOLVED! Neutral light stays partially on - 750 F2/K8

[fxef79]

The front forks and wiring is all 77 F2. From there back it’s bastardized. The engine is a K8.

When I got it the neutral light wasn’t hooked up at all. So I’ve finally run a new wire to the headlight bucket from the neutral switch, and now it works!  However then I noticed - when I pop out of neutral into first or second, the light dims, but it doesn’t go completely out.

This is all observed just with ignition switch on - not while running. I’ve still got some remaining work to have it running again.

Is this a common indication of a failing switch, or have I perhaps made some other wiring error?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BenelliSEI]

The switch only send the ground to the lamp. The lamp is permanently powered (when the ignition is on). Does the light go completely off when you unhook the wire from the neutral switch (ignition on)? If “yes”,  faulty switch. If “no” then the wire is partially grounding somewhere on it’s way up to the lamp.

[fxef79]

The switch only send the ground to the lamp. The lamp is permanently powered (when the ignition is on). Does the light go completely off when you unhook the wire from the neutral switch (ignition on)? If “yes”,  faulty switch. If “no” then the wire is partially grounding somewhere on it’s way up to the lamp.

That’s funny. After I thought about it a little bit I realized that doing exactly that would be a good test. I came back here to update that I would do that next, and I see your exact same recommendation. It’s going to be a couple days before I get back to the workshop to try that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HondaMan]

That bike's OEM wiring harness arrangement also has (had?) a diode to the clutch switch so you could EITHER:
1. have it in Neutral to enable the Start Solenoid or:
2. Have the clutch pulled in to enable the Start Solenoid.

Depending on how you ran your new wire, it might be doubling back to the Neutral light thru that diode, making a dimmer light appear while not in Neutral. You can test this by unplugging the diode: it is usually under the left side cover, toward the upper right area (some were lower, toward the bottom of that area), looks like a little thick plastic 2-pronged plug.

[fxef79]

That bike's OEM wiring harness arrangement also has (had?) a diode to the clutch switch so you could EITHER:
1. have it in Neutral to enable the Start Solenoid or:
2. Have the clutch pulled in to enable the Start Solenoid.

Depending on how you ran your new wire, it might be doubling back to the Neutral light thru that diode, making a dimmer light appear while not in Neutral. You can test this by unplugging the diode: it is usually under the left side cover, toward the upper right area (some were lower, toward the bottom of that area), looks like a little thick plastic 2-pronged plug.

The wiring on this trike doesn't have the diode anymore.  I actually was thinking about wiring the diode back into the harness on this trike, since I have the diode and that socket, and all the wires, from the doner K8 bike.  But then I realized the clutch switch is gone on my 77F front end, and the green/red wire from the starter solenoid is wired straight to ground anyway, so there's not a lot of purpose to the diode anymore.  I haven't looked at whether the K8 doner bike's clutch switch could be recovered and put into the controls on the 77F.  Maybe if it matches up I'll still consider wiring that diode back into the harness in the future.  In the interim I'll just have to remind my wife to make sure it's in neutral, or pull the clutch, while starting.  My shovelhead doesn't have the cutoff either, and it only takes a couple times hitting that starter while in gear to learn not to do it!

Since I don't have that diode, the wire I ran for the neutral switch is a dedicated wire straight from the switch up to the headlight and connected to the ground wire off the neutral light, in that rats nest. But maybe in the rats nest of wires in the headlight I have a bad connection? Technically the wire I ran has one connector in the middle of it... when I get back over to the workshop I'll try pulling it apart at that connector, and then pulling the wire off the switch itself, and see if I can trace the ground fault back to where it's happening.  Heck - it could be inside the dash lights themselves.

[Magpie]

I had a similar problem and solved it here with the members help http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,184874.msg2140547.html#msg2140547   Cliff.

[fxef79]

Ahah! It was, in fact, the switch.

I pulled the wire and tested straight to ground, light on, pulled off ground and light off. So not the wire or bulb grounding somewhere.

I pulled out the switch
and cleaned and tested for resistance. At the “neutral” position (ball farthest out) it had something like 40-50 ohms. That varied as the ball was depressed to around 180, only finally fully disconnecting when the ball was depressed completely level with the face of the switch. Basically, to get it to switch off, had to hold it flat down against the workbench, sometimes even having to depress the ball below the surface. Well, no way something sliding on the face of that could depress the ball below the surface.

Note: I know the resistance numbers above don’t make sense to me either, but it’s a new autoranging meter and I’m not sure I’m reading it right. Regardless it’s clearly not right.

I pulled the switch out of the Franken-engine and cleaned and tested it. The resistance pops around a bit, but it fully shuts off (4.5 MOhms) when the ball is about 1mm shy of being fully level with the face of the switch.

I did notice that this one tends to not switch “on” if you gently let the ball out to the fully extended position. But if you let it “snap” out, it seems to switch on reliably. I’m going to equate it with why you don’t let the slide ease closed on a new round, but rather you pull it back and let it slam home. I already stuck the “bad” switch back in the Franken-engine, and I didn’t think to test this behavior. Gonna replace it anyway.

Put the switch into the K8 engine, and now the light properly comes on at the neutral position, and fully turns off in 1st/2nd.

By the way, I was able to pull one of them out using the needlenose pliars method (grab two holes and pull it out). But the other just wouldn’t come. Found a metric 20mm long bolt that threaded correctly into the wire terminal, grabbed that with the needlenose, and tapped down against the pliars with a small persuader. Slid right out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HondaMan]

Ahah! It was, in fact, the switch.

I pulled the wire and tested straight to ground, light on, pulled off ground and light off. So not the wire or bulb grounding somewhere.

I pulled out the switch
and cleaned and tested for resistance. At the “neutral” position (ball farthest out) it had something like 40-50 ohms. That varied as the ball was depressed to around 180, only finally fully disconnecting when the ball was depressed completely level with the face of the switch. Basically, to get it to switch off, had to hold it flat down against the workbench, sometimes even having to depress the ball below the surface. Well, no way something sliding on the face of that could depress the ball below the surface.

Note: I know the resistance numbers above don’t make sense to me either, but it’s a new autoranging meter and I’m not sure I’m reading it right. Regardless it’s clearly not right.

I pulled the switch out of the Franken-engine and cleaned and tested it. The resistance pops around a bit, but it fully shuts off (4.5 MOhms) when the ball is about 1mm shy of being fully level with the face of the switch.

I did notice that this one tends to not switch “on” if you gently let the ball out to the fully extended position. But if you let it “snap” out, it seems to switch on reliably. I’m going to equate it with why you don’t let the slide ease closed on a new round, but rather you pull it back and let it slam home. I already stuck the “bad” switch back in the Franken-engine, and I didn’t think to test this behavior. Gonna replace it anyway.

Put the switch into the K8 engine, and now the light properly comes on at the neutral position, and fully turns off in 1st/2nd.

By the way, I was able to pull one of them out using the needlenose pliars method (grab two holes and pull it out). But the other just wouldn’t come. Found a metric 20mm long bolt that threaded correctly into the wire terminal, grabbed that with the needlenose, and tapped down against the pliars with a small persuader. Slid right out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have disassembled them when the light would just stay on (even in my own 750, at 126k miles) an have found a silvery-colored paste-y substance had worked its way inside the switches. I am supposing this is finely ground aluminum powder that over time settled into the low point of this gadget, then seeped past the ball to reach the contacts. In all of them that I took apart (instead of just replacing) I was able to restore the switch to good operation with a normal lamp, but the OFF state still passed some few mA of current in most of them, probably from some of that 'stuff' still lying around inside their bodies. They measured more than 2000 ohms, so I let them be: you can reseal the phenolic threads with Permatex #1 (hardening type). The hard part is in remembering to measure the top surface of that part, so the plunge depth stays the same on reassembly.

[fxef79]

Ahah! It was, in fact, the switch.

I pulled the wire and tested straight to ground, light on, pulled off ground and light off. So not the wire or bulb grounding somewhere.

I pulled out the switch
and cleaned and tested for resistance. At the “neutral” position (ball farthest out) it had something like 40-50 ohms. That varied as the ball was depressed to around 180, only finally fully disconnecting when the ball was depressed completely level with the face of the switch. Basically, to get it to switch off, had to hold it flat down against the workbench, sometimes even having to depress the ball below the surface. Well, no way something sliding on the face of that could depress the ball below the surface.

Note: I know the resistance numbers above don’t make sense to me either, but it’s a new autoranging meter and I’m not sure I’m reading it right. Regardless it’s clearly not right.

I pulled the switch out of the Franken-engine and cleaned and tested it. The resistance pops around a bit, but it fully shuts off (4.5 MOhms) when the ball is about 1mm shy of being fully level with the face of the switch.

I did notice that this one tends to not switch “on” if you gently let the ball out to the fully extended position. But if you let it “snap” out, it seems to switch on reliably. I’m going to equate it with why you don’t let the slide ease closed on a new round, but rather you pull it back and let it slam home. I already stuck the “bad” switch back in the Franken-engine, and I didn’t think to test this behavior. Gonna replace it anyway.

Put the switch into the K8 engine, and now the light properly comes on at the neutral position, and fully turns off in 1st/2nd.

By the way, I was able to pull one of them out using the needlenose pliars method (grab two holes and pull it out). But the other just wouldn’t come. Found a metric 20mm long bolt that threaded correctly into the wire terminal, grabbed that with the needlenose, and tapped down against the pliars with a small persuader. Slid right out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have disassembled them when the light would just stay on (even in my own 750, at 126k miles) an have found a silvery-colored paste-y substance had worked its way inside the switches. I am supposing this is finely ground aluminum powder that over time settled into the low point of this gadget, then seeped past the ball to reach the contacts. In all of them that I took apart (instead of just replacing) I was able to restore the switch to good operation with a normal lamp, but the OFF state still passed some few mA of current in most of them, probably from some of that 'stuff' still lying around inside their bodies. They measured more than 2000 ohms, so I let them be: you can reseal the phenolic threads with Permatex #1 (hardening type). The hard part is in remembering to measure the top surface of that part, so the plunge depth stays the same on reassembly.

Wait... so it can be disassembled?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HondaMan]

Yep. It is held closed with the epoxy you see around its edges, and some sealant in the threads of the phenolic body. They aren't fancy. Back in those days, all this stuff was made to be taken apart and 'serviced'. Somewhere along the 1990s or so, everything became 'throwaway' instead.

[Don R]

 This is a common problem on the Goldwings too. Some guys say it's oil varnish buildup but whatever the cause a lot of them glow a little. One treatment is to wire a 1057 bulb in line with it and let the amps burn the goo off.