Topic: Would I be wrong...? First response arrived, favorably!

[Don R]

 A friend in the performance / restoration auto parts business told me much of those parts are made when big factories have excess production time available and can spare the tools and workers. Material shortages are compounding the problem.

[HondaMan]

You're all correct (and this is much like what we saw in 2006-ish before).
I worked with Japan from the late 1960s through the early 2000s in many markets, with many engineers there, and their bosses. I learned a LOT about how to attract their attention and 'maintain honor', which was always paramount then. It is a little less so today, but the old money and old leaders still have influence in their culture, and Japanese engineering and culture are closely connected. And they dislike ('hate' might be more accurate) copycat thieves in places like Malaysia and China....

Some of the more important points then (2006) were:
- Which models/bikes would be most important? CB750 tops that list, with CB500/550/350F (especially since Sochiro owned this one)/400F, and possibly the CB650, although it was largely a bomb in sales and not widely esteemed today (and its electronic parts are obsolete since 1992-ish). The CBX and CB450 are also iconic models. The GL1000 parts supply somewhat survives today because Honda deemed it the pivotal turning point toward their car business, at least as far as engineering efforts were concerned.
- The potential market volume and a good way to esteem Honda for going to this effort (this is very important to getting it done). The manufacture of these parts is, like Don R points out, a spare-time sort of operation for Honda's vendors. I suspect we are about to see (within the next year) a LOT of spare-time availability as Japan struggles back into the market following the Covid impacts of all sorts. Historically speaking, this drove all of Japan's industry as they must import every drop of oil and grain of aluminum/steel ore: their island has nothing to help with this activity.
- Finding a way for a 'petition' that can be 'signed' by lots of owners/customers to acknowledge the effort's requests and Honda's response. It will NOT help to complain about the cost of the parts: they will be purpose-built and likely less than 2000 items per part number at a time, so yes, they will cost more. When Honda started offering the swingarm collars again in 2007 their price was doubled, but their quality was pure Honda and they were flawless parts. This is probably what we would see again: when they responded to American Honda's requests for OEM points and condensors in 2009 we got genuine TEC points plates with TEC-quality condensors to boot for $80 per set: they have again stopped with these. This particular item is tops on my personal list, even though I am working on a possible alternate 'fix' for this situation if they decline.

I shall endeavor to contact American Honda about how to move forward with this, although I suspect they will be as deaf to it as they were in 2006. There are several Honda (bike) dealers who work with Japan directly (Sound Sound is one), so I may inquire that route, too.

[MauiK3]

This is exciting.
I know that I don’t know anything about motivating them to crank up the parts production but I would think that in addition to more formal efforts, an on line “petition” of some sort could have some effect.
It may serve to identify who is interested and where they are (all over the planet!
I would buy a case or two of points!

[grcamna2]

This is exciting.
I know that I don’t know anything about motivating them to crank up the parts production but I would think that in addition to more formal efforts, an on line “petition” of some sort could have some effect.
It may serve to identify who is interested and where they are (all over the planet!
I would buy a case or two of points!

TEC points are the Best.

[69cb750]

You're all correct (and this is much like what we saw in 2006-ish before).
I worked with Japan from the late 1960s through the early 2000s in many markets, with many engineers there, and their bosses. I learned a LOT about how to attract their attention and 'maintain honor', which was always paramount then. It is a little less so today, but the old money and old leaders still have influence in their culture, and Japanese engineering and culture are closely connected. And they dislike ('hate' might be more accurate) copycat thieves in places like Malaysia and China....

Some of the more important points then (2006) were:
- Which models/bikes would be most important? CB750 tops that list, with CB500/550/350F (especially since Sochiro owned this one)/400F, and possibly the CB650, although it was largely a bomb in sales and not widely esteemed today (and its electronic parts are obsolete since 1992-ish). The CBX and CB450 are also iconic models. The GL1000 parts supply somewhat survives today because Honda deemed it the pivotal turning point toward their car business, at least as far as engineering efforts were concerned.
- The potential market volume and a good way to esteem Honda for going to this effort (this is very important to getting it done). The manufacture of these parts is, like Don R points out, a spare-time sort of operation for Honda's vendors. I suspect we are about to see (within the next year) a LOT of spare-time availability as Japan struggles back into the market following the Covid impacts of all sorts. Historically speaking, this drove all of Japan's industry as they must import every drop of oil and grain of aluminum/steel ore: their island has nothing to help with this activity.
- Finding a way for a 'petition' that can be 'signed' by lots of owners/customers to acknowledge the effort's requests and Honda's response. It will NOT help to complain about the cost of the parts: they will be purpose-built and likely less than 2000 items per part number at a time, so yes, they will cost more. When Honda started offering the swingarm collars again in 2007 their price was doubled, but their quality was pure Honda and they were flawless parts. This is probably what we would see again: when they responded to American Honda's requests for OEM points and condensors in 2009 we got genuine TEC points plates with TEC-quality condensors to boot for $80 per set: they have again stopped with these. This particular item is tops on my personal list, even though I am working on a possible alternate 'fix' for this situation if they decline.

I shall endeavor to contact American Honda about how to move forward with this, although I suspect they will be as deaf to it as they were in 2006. There are several Honda (bike) dealers who work with Japan directly (Sound Sound is one), so I may inquire that route, too.

Your experience will be a big help, especially if you have contacts in Japan from the past.
Can you provide a list of parts to request ?
Honda parts are top quality and expensive, Yamiya parts are very good too, some of the crap from China is awful.

[Maltboy]

Exhaust systems! 

[HondaMan]

Exhaust systems! 

Yeah, that one is on my list, too!
But, I think the molds were sold to the people who are making them for Yamiya, circa 2010 or so. The #2 pipe mold was changed for the HM341 pipes (it wore out, apparently) and was remade by the supplier, which is why that pipe is always just slightly "off" in the Yamiya sets. I suspect we'll find other things like this.

No response today from American Honda, but this is young..

[scottly]

If you want TEC points and ignition parts, you need to talk to TEC, who supplied them to Honda. If you want brake calipers, you want to talk to Tokico, who also was a supplier to Kawasaki. If you want suspension parts, you want Showa, and so on. There is nothing in it for Honda, and the aftermarket has most things covered, just like the American car scene. You can build an entire 1969 Chevy Camero body with brand new sheet-metal. Chevy has moved on, and so has Honda.

[Sdsbassist]

This market is blowing up. Paid 900 for this.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[PeWe]

Honda carb boots seems to be not that good nowadays. Either the rubber mix or the fuel Shell V-Power (max 5% ethanol here).

I had carbs removed, refitted them yesterday where I saw that 2-3 looked bad just before the head spigot, the transition where going wider. A sore surface as they were drying up.
These were new last year, packed them up from individual Honda bags last september. Used them max 4000 km.

I doubt they will last long. I need replacement and most likely replace them with 2-3 years or sooner.

Honda need to redesign them, back to the old and much better rubber they had in the 70's- early 80's.

I found 2 cracked boots last year I thought were copies. I compared them with my new. All markings were exactly the same, same rubber feel. There are several strange markings.
They looked like this after 4 years and max 25.000 km.

Good idea to open the clamps each year and have a look with a dentist mirror all around. This was #3 the worst one, #2 had a crack half of this.

I need to find a way to make my old boots (I think I purchased 1983 when replacing the originals) to be softer so I can reuse them.

[bryanj]

Those dont look like honda clips to me

[newday777]

Honda carb boots seems to be not that good nowadays. Either the rubber mix or the fuel Shell V-Power (max 5% ethanol here).

I had carbs removed, refitted them yesterday where I saw that 2-3 looked bad just before the head spigot, the transition where going wider. A sore surface as they were drying up.
These were new last year, packed them up from individual Honda bags last september. Used them max 4000 km.

I doubt they will last long. I need replacement and most likely replace them with 2-3 years or sooner.

Honda need to redesign them, back to the old and much better rubber they had in the 70's- early 80's.

I found 2 cracked boots last year I thought were copies. I compared them with my new. All markings were exactly the same, same rubber feel. There are several strange markings.
They looked like this after 4 years and max 25.000 km.

Good idea to open the clamps each year and have a look with a dentist mirror all around. This was #3 the worst one, #2 had a crack half of this.

I need to find a way to make my old boots (I think I purchased 1983 when replacing the originals) to be softer so I can reuse them.

Have you been using the stock air filter housing? The picture looks like pods have been used leaving the weight of the carbs hanging on the boots.....

[pjlogue]

You're all correct (and this is much like what we saw in 2006-ish before).
I worked with Japan from the late 1960s through the early 2000s in many markets, with many engineers there, and their bosses. I learned a LOT about how to attract their attention and 'maintain honor', which was always paramount then. It is a little less so today, but the old money and old leaders still have influence in their culture, and Japanese engineering and culture are closely connected. And they dislike ('hate' might be more accurate) copycat thieves in places like Malaysia and China....

Some of the more important points then (2006) were:
- Which models/bikes would be most important? CB750 tops that list, with CB500/550/350F (especially since Sochiro owned this one)/400F, and possibly the CB650, although it was largely a bomb in sales and not widely esteemed today (and its electronic parts are obsolete since 1992-ish). The CBX and CB450 are also iconic models. The GL1000 parts supply somewhat survives today because Honda deemed it the pivotal turning point toward their car business, at least as far as engineering efforts were concerned.
- The potential market volume and a good way to esteem Honda for going to this effort (this is very important to getting it done). The manufacture of these parts is, like Don R points out, a spare-time sort of operation for Honda's vendors. I suspect we are about to see (within the next year) a LOT of spare-time availability as Japan struggles back into the market following the Covid impacts of all sorts. Historically speaking, this drove all of Japan's industry as they must import every drop of oil and grain of aluminum/steel ore: their island has nothing to help with this activity.
- Finding a way for a 'petition' that can be 'signed' by lots of owners/customers to acknowledge the effort's requests and Honda's response. It will NOT help to complain about the cost of the parts: they will be purpose-built and likely less than 2000 items per part number at a time, so yes, they will cost more. When Honda started offering the swingarm collars again in 2007 their price was doubled, but their quality was pure Honda and they were flawless parts. This is probably what we would see again: when they responded to American Honda's requests for OEM points and condensors in 2009 we got genuine TEC points plates with TEC-quality condensors to boot for $80 per set: they have again stopped with these. This particular item is tops on my personal list, even though I am working on a possible alternate 'fix' for this situation if they decline.

I shall endeavor to contact American Honda about how to move forward with this, although I suspect they will be as deaf to it as they were in 2006. There are several Honda (bike) dealers who work with Japan directly (Sound Sound is one), so I may inquire that route, too.

Mark,  I think it is  safe to say that within the "hard core" old bike enthusiasts, it is understood that the quantity of limited production parts and the respective higher cost is understood and expected.  I can't speak for everyone but I would much rather spent the $ up front and get a part I know I will not have to alter/adjust to get it to fit properly and know it will last 20-30+ years like the original parts did. 

As I have said before in some of my past posts, we are in a window in time where these parts are in demand.  As the collective group of people that were in their 20's-30's when these bikes came out back in the late 60's and 70's, grow too old to ride and start passing away the demand for these bikes will slow down and with it the demand for parts.  I expect this window to last at least another 10, perhaps 15 years.  By then the bikes and parts of the 80's-90's will be in the window of time.  Will they have the same demand the earlier bikes have?  Who knows.  The cb750 and the GL1000 were industry spear heads and forever changed the motorcycle industry!

-P.   

[PeWe]

Honda carb boots seems to be not that good nowadays. Either the rubber mix or the fuel Shell V-Power (max 5% ethanol here).

I had carbs removed, refitted them yesterday where I saw that 2-3 looked bad just before the head spigot, the transition where going wider. A sore surface as they were drying up.
These were new last year, packed them up from individual Honda bags last september. Used them max 4000 km.

I doubt they will last long. I need replacement and most likely replace them with 2-3 years or sooner.

Honda need to redesign them, back to the old and much better rubber they had in the 70's- early 80's.

I found 2 cracked boots last year I thought were copies. I compared them with my new. All markings were exactly the same, same rubber feel. There are several strange markings.
They looked like this after 4 years and max 25.000 km.

Good idea to open the clamps each year and have a look with a dentist mirror all around. This was #3 the worst one, #2 had a crack half of this.

I need to find a way to make my old boots (I think I purchased 1983 when replacing the originals) to be softer so I can reuse them.

Have you been using the stock air filter housing? The picture looks like pods have been used leaving the weight of the carbs hanging on the boots.....

Carbs sit firmly, not possible to move up or down strapped into frame with rubber between to not bend boots up or down when tighten them to frame to avoid bend force to the boots.
The rubber quality definitely not as before, much softer which reminds me about VM29 rubbers that were even softer and cracked even quicker.

My very old rubbers from the 80's with stock carbs had no support, hanging in the rubbers only when pods were on. No problems at all during 8 riding years, 50.000km and 19 years parked in a barn.

Carb boots are softer and different fuel today.

If more have seen same issue, tell Honda we need better boots.

[TwoTired]

If you want TEC points and ignition parts, you need to talk to TEC, who supplied them to Honda. If you want brake calipers, you want to talk to Tokico, who also was a supplier to Kawasaki. If you want suspension parts, you want Showa, and so on. There is nothing in it for Honda, and the aftermarket has most things covered, just like the American car scene. You can build an entire 1969 Chevy Camero body with brand new sheet-metal. Chevy has moved on, and so has Honda.

I don’t know what contracts are in place.  But, often suppliers of parts have an exclusivity or license clause, where the designs are owned by the parent/buying company, and the parent company thereby controls who the parts maker can sell to for distribution.  I expect companies are more inclined to adhere to these practices in Japan, than China or other Asian countries with a different legal system that allows design or patent infringements.

The tooling for “new” Chevy Camero panels was not made by GM suppliers.  And, the new parts, while very close, are not “exactly” the same as originals.  They could actually be better.  But, you’ll probably find out that there is enough difference to circumvent royalty payments to GM and other legal issues.

Cheers!

[HondaMan]

If you want TEC points and ignition parts, you need to talk to TEC, who supplied them to Honda. If you want brake calipers, you want to talk to Tokico, who also was a supplier to Kawasaki. If you want suspension parts, you want Showa, and so on. There is nothing in it for Honda, and the aftermarket has most things covered, just like the American car scene. You can build an entire 1969 Chevy Camero body with brand new sheet-metal. Chevy has moved on, and so has Honda.

This is a good point, but would involve a lot more $$ investment (which I lack) to get things moving.

[HondaMan]

If you want TEC points and ignition parts, you need to talk to TEC, who supplied them to Honda. If you want brake calipers, you want to talk to Tokico, who also was a supplier to Kawasaki. If you want suspension parts, you want Showa, and so on. There is nothing in it for Honda, and the aftermarket has most things covered, just like the American car scene. You can build an entire 1969 Chevy Camero body with brand new sheet-metal. Chevy has moved on, and so has Honda.

I don’t know what contracts are in place.  But, often suppliers of parts have an exclusivity or license clause, where the designs are owned by the parent/buying company, and the parent company thereby controls who the parts maker can sell to for distribution.  I expect companies are more inclined to adhere to these practices in Japan, than China or other Asian countries with a different legal system that allows design or patent infringements.

The tooling for “new” Chevy Camero panels was not made by GM suppliers.  And, the new parts, while very close, are not “exactly” the same as originals.  They could actually be better.  But, you’ll probably find out that there is enough difference to circumvent royalty payments to GM and other legal issues.

Cheers!

I believe you're right about this, too, TT. The Japanese often patented thier stuff both in Japan and the USA back in the day for this reason, and the agreements between the vendors and Honda/Kawi/Suzy/Yamaha were said to be sacrosanct. It certainly looked that way when working on the various bikes, as each brand had stuff completely different from the others, for better or worse, even if the function was the same. The Kawis always appeared to 'cheap out' the designs, the Suzys were overly heavy-duty (but the design not as sound in many cases) and the Yamahas did it differently, period. The same vendor marks appeared (TEC, Hitachi, TOYO, RK, etc.) in all the bikes, but the parts were always non-interchangeable unless the design was purely by chance the same dimensions, like sprockets, fork tubes and shocks, or chains.

For now I will try to approach it like in 2006-ish, first through American Honda and then to Honda Japan. I am sure their company culture is changed by now.

[bryanj]

Problem is aftermarket produce to a price not quality where Honda produce to a standard or at least profess to

[ekpent]

 I've noticed before that not all official Honda bagged parts are made in Japan. Seen several 'Made in' different counties on some. Guess the mother ship hopefully holds them to a certain standard.

[PeWe]

I have seen German eBay seller that deliver parts in a plain plastic bag with Honda marked label inside with handwritten part numbers.
Honda had printed  numbers on their paper labels in plastic bags when they deluvered parts like that.

I'll see if I can use my old NOS K0 boots. Those have Honda printed part no label inside bag with part.

The rubber on those old boots look different, matte black surface and a little bit harder (as the K2-K6 looked like back in the days) but still fresh when stored in plastic bag all years. Bought them 1987-88 for my K6 but got wrong.
They are shorter on the head spigot side.

It would be nice if the old versions can be reproduced.
My vote for that!

[grcamna2]

I'll see if I can use my old NOS K0 boots.
The rubber look different, matte black surface and a little bit harder (as the K2-K6 looked like back in the days) but still fresh when stored in plastic bag all years. Bought them 1987-88 for my K6 but got wrong.
They are shorter on the head spigot side.

It would be nice if the old versions can be reproduced.
My vote for that!

Per,can you find any old,hard original Honda rubber manifolds?
I've successfully used the Wintergreen mix to soften used,original rock-hard old rubber intake boots in the past.They have stayed soft for a while and would start to harden again although more heated Wintergreen oil treatments do work.

[TwoTired]

The same vendor marks appeared (TEC, Hitachi, TOYO, RK, etc.) in all the bikes, but the parts were always non-interchangeable unless the design was purely by chance the same dimensions, like sprockets, fork tubes and shocks, or chains.

Yup.  Had a Cb550F starter that had the bearings wear out, grounding the armature.  I went through the local MC shop's "junk parts" pile, and found a starter that was similar.  Same vendor brand, but out of a Kawi, if I recall correctly.  Looked similar, but enough different that it would not mount directly in the 550.  However, when I took it apart, it had the exact same bearings, like new.  So, I swapped them, and that original starter still works to this day in the 550.  I love it when I can repair something, and no one but me can tell it was repaired or original.

Cheers,

[PeWe]

I'll see if I can use my old NOS K0 boots.
The rubber look different, matte black surface and a little bit harder (as the K2-K6 looked like back in the days) but still fresh when stored in plastic bag all years. Bought them 1987-88 for my K6 but got wrong.
They are shorter on the head spigot side.

It would be nice if the old versions can be reproduced.
My vote for that!

Per,can you find any old,hard original Honda rubber manifolds?
I've successfully used the Wintergreen mix to soften used,original rock-hard old rubber intake boots in the past.They have stayed soft for a while and would start to harden again although more heated Wintergreen oil treatments do work.

I have my old hard ones I removed when I started to take engine apart 2010.
Wintergreen is probably not available here.
Is it another name for it?

[robvangulik]

I'll see if I can use my old NOS K0 boots.
The rubber look different, matte black surface and a little bit harder (as the K2-K6 looked like back in the days) but still fresh when stored in plastic bag all years. Bought them 1987-88 for my K6 but got wrong.
They are shorter on the head spigot side.

It would be nice if the old versions can be reproduced.
My vote for that!

Per,can you find any old,hard original Honda rubber manifolds?
I've successfully used the Wintergreen mix to soften used,original rock-hard old rubber intake boots in the past.They have stayed soft for a while and would start to harden again although more heated Wintergreen oil treatments do work.

I have my old hard ones I removed when I started to take engine apart 2010.
Wintergreen is probably not available here.
Is it another name for it?

I've been looking for it too, and can only find it as wintergreen, seems to be available at equestrian shops (horses) and very expensive. Have not bought any yet...

[grcamna2]

I'll see if I can use my old NOS K0 boots.
The rubber look different, matte black surface and a little bit harder (as the K2-K6 looked like back in the days) but still fresh when stored in plastic bag all years. Bought them 1987-88 for my K6 but got wrong.
They are shorter on the head spigot side.

It would be nice if the old versions can be reproduced.
My vote for that!

Per,can you find any old,hard original Honda rubber manifolds?
I've successfully used the Wintergreen mix to soften used,original rock-hard old rubber intake boots in the past.They have stayed soft for a while and would start to harden again although more heated Wintergreen oil treatments do work.

I have my old hard ones I removed when I started to take engine apart 2010.
Wintergreen is probably not available here.
Is it another name for it?

I purchased a 4 oz. bottle of pure Wintergreen Oil online about a year ago;you can mix it with different stuff 50/50 and heat it.The brand I purchased online is called 'Grandma's Home' and it was less than $25 shipped.