Topic: Heated grips?

[Greyhound]

Anyone running heated grips on your vintage Honda?

Can our batteries, charging systems handle it?

[newday777]

It depends on which 'vintage Honda' you are asking on.....
If the 77 CB550 you listed in your profile, the 550 is noted for undercharging the battery at idle rpms.
The best place to start is change out all your bulbs to LED to lessen the draw used by the stock incandescent bulbs before you try to add the draw of heated grips on any of the SOHC bikes.

Read through the replies of this older thread from 2010 on the 550.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=65525.0

[TwoTired]

It’s a numbers game and you didn’t provide any.  What is the current draw of the grips you desire?
And what is the average rpm during your normal ride?

My expectation: probably not gonna work out for a CB550 if you are primarily driving about in the city.

But, you didn’t provide any details to figure it out for you. 

Cheers,

[Greyhound]

It depends on which 'vintage Honda' you are asking on.....
If the 77 CB550 you listed in your profile, the 550 is noted for undercharging the battery at idle rpms.
The best place to start is change out all your bulbs to LED to lessen the draw used by the stock incandescent bulbs before you try to add the draw of heated grips on any of the SOHC bikes.

Read through the replies of this older thread from 2010 on the 550.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=65525.0

Thanks for this link, indeed insightful. All of my lights already are LED, including the headlight. Although Ive yet to check al my grounds to assure they are crisp/clean.

[Greyhound]

It’s a numbers game and you didn’t provide any.  What is the current draw of the grips you desire?
And what is the average rpm during your normal ride?

My expectation: probably not gonna work out for a CB550 if you are primarily driving about in the city.

But, you didn’t provide any details to figure it out for you. 

Cheers,

Good call, I haven’t measured the current draw on the bike… How would I do that? I thought of also installing one of those voltmeters to be able to see where the voltage is at all times, is there a better way?

Regarding draw of the grips, I was looking at the Bikemaster heated grips, which reportedly draw 2.8 to 3.2 amps.

Is there a risk of burning out the alternator, or anything else by hooking these up?

[TwoTired]

The alternator is self limiting, and cannot burn itself out.  It’s good for about 12 amps total output when spun to 3-5k RPM.  But only about a third of that at idle.

What happens if you ask for more than it is capable of providing, is reduced voltage output (watt limit current times voltage) of the alternator.  And the battery supplies the difference in current demand for as long as it has storage capacity.
When the battery depletes, the bike’s system voltage falls.  And when it falls below the ignition ability to make spark, the engine stops, and you have a show bike that looks good parked.

The stock bike draws about 10 AMPs with lighting on, and uses the battery to sustain life while idling.

You can measure your bikes draw by temporarily inserting an ammeter in place of the main fuse.

You can also infer battery charge state with a volt meter.  Volts above 12.8V and the battery is charging,  volts below 12.6V and the battery is depleting. (Assuming lead acid tech.)

I suppose there is some risk to the alternator field coil if it is in a constant state full charge mode at high RPM for long durations.  Seems like the battery would deplete sooner, though.

Cheers,

[Greyhound]

Thank you so much for that crystal clear explanation.

More questions! … In consideration of all possibilities, assuming the heated grips get installed, in order to preserve the battery, could I just flip off the power to the grips whenever I’m idling at a stop light, then flip on when the light turns green?

Or would that fluctuating back and forth potentially cause an issue?

Also, regarding the possible risk to the field coil at full charge for long durations… Is that the case regardless of any additional draw on the system (i.e. heated grips) or does cruising at 50mph for a few hours straight always pose a risk?

[Greyhound]

Also, how would incorporating a lithium battery be any different?

In particular, the EarthX battery, which has built-in excessive overcharge/discharge protections?

 https://earthxbatteries.com/shop/etx12a

[Greyhound]

Also, do you know how many amps the stock bulbs draw in comparison to LED bulbs?

Does an electronic ignition result in a bigger draw on the system?

Is it feasible to wire in a capacitor to help alleviate any of the shortcomings of the charging system?

[bryanj]

You can work out the amps

Electronic draws markedley more amps

Capacitor? What makes you think that would help

[TwoTired]

More questions! … In consideration of all possibilities, assuming the heated grips get installed, in order to preserve the battery, could I just flip off the power to the grips whenever I’m idling at a stop light, then flip on when the light turns green?

Or would that fluctuating back and forth potentially cause an issue?

I don’t have data for your modified bike.  Normally, the 550 depletes the battery during idle, and restores it while underway when the RPMs are higher than 2000.  The scheme relies on more driving time than idle time, biased about 1/8 to 7/8.  The battery is a storage reservoir.  Bigger reservoirs extend abuse time.  It still needs to have restoration charge of about 120% of what has been depleted.  Stock bike has about 2 amps of restoration power to spare during driving with lights on.  A switch adding/removing load won’t matter until power demand exceeds alternator capability and battery capacity. Which brings you ever closer to a stationary show bike.

Also, regarding the possible risk to the field coil at full charge for long durations… Is that the case regardless of any additional draw on the system (i.e. heated grips) or does cruising at 50mph for a few hours straight always pose a risk?

when the battery is restored to full charge, the field and alternator are turned off, and can’t overheat its coils.  If the battery is always depleted due to loads beyond design parameters , the alternator field will always be fully powered and needs such heat dissipated to preserve its windings.  Some specific examples will be more sensitive to this than others.  I have one 550 that has a damaged field coil, which I believe happened coincident with adding a radio to the bike in the 80s and using it on work commutes.  It still will charge the battery, but no longer has 150 watt capability. So, I keep the headlight off during daytime on that bike.

[TwoTired]

Also, do you know how many amps the stock bulbs draw in comparison to LED bulbs?
no.  Did the person who sold those bulbs tell you?
Does an electronic ignition result in a bigger draw on the system?
most do, particularly when they preach bigger spark as a sales ploy.  But, Not all.  “Electronic Ignition” is not a specification, even though marketeers would have you believe so.  It’s a style without specification and therefore much easier to sell due to sounding superior.
Is it feasible to wire in a capacitor to help alleviate any of the shortcomings of the charging system?

. The battery doubles as a large capacitor.  Capacitors are used to smooth out transient power fluctuations.  They do not add or subtract to the overall power consumption or generation equation.  When spun up, you have about 150 watts (some examples may be a bit more due to production variations) to play with including battery restoration.

[TwoTired]

Also, how would incorporating a lithium battery be any different?

In particular, the EarthX battery, which has built-in excessive overcharge/discharge protections?

 https://earthxbatteries.com/shop/etx12a

A bigger battery extends discharge times.  It still needs restoration at some point.
 I hadn’t seen this before.  But what happens when this battery senses too deep a discharge?  I’m thinking “show bike”.  Good for long polishing sessions at dark city intersections when the battery shuts itself off.

Besides, the 550 was only taught how to maintain a lead acid battery.

Fully charged lead acid only needs higher than 12.6v to charge. LiFePO4 needs higher than 13.2v to restore charge level.  While the 550 alternator can produce these voltages, it has to be spun higher to get them.
But, if you seek attention from a high revving loud exhaust, maybe that’s right for you?  Should enhance the “racer” image.  ;-)

Cheers,

[robvangulik]

For the last 14 years i've been running an Accent electronic ignition on my 400f, which draws as little power as possible, it even switches off the draw when ignition is on and the engine not running to prevent overheating the coils and depleting the battery.
It uses the original advancer with a new centre.

[Greyhound]

I live in San Francisco, it’s in the 40’s-50’s most of the year, and incredibly windy.

I was hoping to install some heated grips to maybe be able to stop needing to warm up my hands on the engine at stop lights 

If the stock draw is 10amps, but I’m running all LED lighting, is it a fair assumption that the overall draw would be around 7-8 amps?

So during a ride, when the engine is revving 3-5k RPM supplying 12 amps to contribute to restorative power, would that theoretically leave 3-4 amps left over, which could potentially be used to power the heated grips?

And I would only turn them on once moving/revving, and turn off at idling/stop lights… or would this still pose an increased risk to the field coil? (Even with the very mild temps).

(Assuming also that I would connect to a trickle charger every so often to help restore the battery).

[Greyhound]

For the last 14 years i've been running an Accent electronic ignition on my 400f, which draws as little power as possible, it even switches off the draw when ignition is on and the engine not running to prevent overheating the coils and depleting the battery.
It uses the original advancer with a new centre.

When you say “as little as possible” is that more than the stock draw? Or less?

I’ve got a Hondaman ignition I’ve yet find time to install, and was going to do it at the same time as the grips… Which also draws less than stock points, ya?

[david 750f]

Greyhound, living in Canada I have lots of experience with heated grips. I much prefer heated gloves. If you are concerned about current draw get the battery powered ones.

[Greyhound]

Good call, perhaps heated gloves would be a better option after all. Seems like a more efficient transfer of heat as well.

[TwoTired]

If the stock draw is 10amps, but I’m running all LED lighting, is it a fair assumption that the overall draw would be around 7-8 amps?

Nope.  Assumption predicated on facts not in evidence.

Can calculate the wattage of the bulbs you replaced.  Then compare to the watts used by what's now installed.  Anything else is just a W.A.G.

The increased risk to the field coil is related to how hard you are making it work on some production examples of the coil.  If you always have a consumption margin of 2 amps while revving, it should be okay so long as your idle time is about 1/4 or less of your riding time.  Expect to use a battery maintainer while parked.

I’ve got a Hondaman ignition I’ve yet find time to install, and was going to do it at the same time as the grips… Which also draws less than stock points, ya?

No.  Adding a power consuming device does not draw less power than the stock points.  I'm baffled at how could you arrive at that concept?  Electronics is highly math oriented.  And 2+1 never = less than 3 in the universe we all live within currently.

Unless you start measuring, rather than trying to argue/theoreticise your way to condescension, nothing's going to be resolved.  I expect you'll just do what you want to, irregardless of facts.

I'd go with gloves (and did so for years without being heated) in 40 degree weather at 70 MPH in daily commutes in the south bay.  Gloves are also safety equipment much needed in a let off.  But, will probably clash with the sneakers desired for stylish riding. :-)

Cheers and best of luck,

[robvangulik]

+1, buy good motorcycle gloves, I never ride without, I didn't even consider the possibility you would not!

[Deltarider]

Yep, just good gloves and you won't need no stinking heat grips. They're a waste of time (to install), money and energy. It's one of those items that do well in advertisements. Keep it simple!

[Greyhound]

My other bike is a Hayabusa, so I’m way too stylish for gloves, let alone sneakers… I wear flip-flop sandals baby!

[Greyhound]

In all seriousness though, I didn’t think I was arguing. Either way, I appreciate all of the insight.

Anyway, indeed heated gloves do sound like the way to go. I’ve also seen some heated glove liners, which may be nice if they can squeeze into my racer-image gloves 

To any of you riding with heated gloves, are there any solid brands you’ve had good experience with?

[evinrude7]

More questions! … In consideration of all possibilities, assuming the heated grips get installed, in order to preserve the battery, could I just flip off the power to the grips whenever I’m idling at a stop light, then flip on when the light turns green?

Or would that fluctuating back and forth potentially cause an issue?

I don’t have data for your modified bike.  Normally, the 550 depletes the battery during idle, and restores it while underway when the RPMs are higher than 2000.  The scheme relies on more driving time than idle time, biased about 1/8 to 7/8.  The battery is a storage reservoir.  Bigger reservoirs extend abuse time.  It still needs to have restoration charge of about 120% of what has been depleted.  Stock bike has about 2 amps of restoration power to spare during driving with lights on.  A switch adding/removing load won’t matter until power demand exceeds alternator capability and battery capacity. Which brings you ever closer to a stationary show bike.

Also, regarding the possible risk to the field coil at full charge for long durations… Is that the case regardless of any additional draw on the system (i.e. heated grips) or does cruising at 50mph for a few hours straight always pose a risk?

when the battery is restored to full charge, the field and alternator are turned off, and can’t overheat its coils.  If the battery is always depleted due to loads beyond design parameters , the alternator field will always be fully powered and needs such heat dissipated to preserve its windings.  Some specific examples will be more sensitive to this than others.  I have one 550 that has a damaged field coil, which I believe happened coincident with adding a radio to the bike in the 80s and using it on work commutes.  It still will charge the battery, but no longer has 150 watt capability. So, I keep the headlight off during daytime on that bike.

In all seriousness though, I didn’t think I was arguing. Either way, I appreciate all of the insight.

Anyway, indeed heated gloves do sound like the way to go. I’ve also seen some heated glove liners, which may be nice if they can squeeze into my racer-image gloves 

To any of you riding with heated gloves, are there any solid brands you’ve had good experience with?

I bought a cheap pair of joe rocket heated gloves. They work great when cold. Might have been $175 if I recall. Only downside is they aren't really made to be put on the pavement. Your hands will sweat when they are on high but the batteries only last an hour on high. Get extra batteries. On low they last 3 hours. Medium 90 mins. Good luck.

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

[Greyhound]

I really appreciate all of the insight from everyone, thank you.

Going to shop around for some heated gloves or glove liners.