Author Topic: *please help* clutch issue  (Read 4618 times)

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Offline Stev-o

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Re: *please help* clutch issue
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2021, 03:33:16 PM »
All bets are off if you have parts leftover after refurbishing the clutch. ;D

Hey Scott....^^^ I would bet on that^^^!!!
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline Bduck72750k

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Re: *please help* clutch issue
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2021, 04:37:50 PM »
All bets are off if you have parts leftover after refurbishing the clutch. ;D

Hey Scott....^^^ I would bet on that^^^!!!

The only problem is i bought the washer during the build and the PO didnt have it installed. I think if im not wrong he might have been running 7/7 fibre/steel plates which would be wrong judging by my parts. I had it started before i rebuilt it all but it was rough. It didnt come with clutch cabke attached or a lever.

Offline Bduck72750k

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Re: *please help* clutch issue
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2021, 04:40:28 PM »
The frustrating part is no one around here does CB’s or vintage bikes like this so i cant have someome else see it in person. I live in Vermont so there isnt much around. Lol otherwise i havent had that much trouble with the build. I started with a frame and everything has been rebuilt/restored.

Offline CaptFatCat

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Re: *please help* clutch issue
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2021, 03:25:55 AM »
Your 25mm spline washer is not supposed to be flat, it goes on convex side out.

 I have ran across issues like yours swapping around parts from a K8 with a K2 to find the clutch basket, plates and springs are different. seems to me that you just have a mix of parts. I bet if you compare what your working with to the original parts you will find your problem.
Resurrecting a Herman Munster CB750 from a few old baskets of K2 and K7 parts.

Offline Bduck72750k

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Re: *please help* clutch issue
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2021, 03:43:12 AM »
Your 25mm spline washer is not supposed to be flat, it goes on convex side out.

 I have ran across issues like yours swapping around parts from a K8 with a K2 to find the clutch basket, plates and springs are different. seems to me that you just have a mix of parts. I bet if you compare what your working with to the original parts you will find your problem.

I am currently using the convex side out but parts are going in as follows:
Clutch basket, *no spline washer*, clutch pack 7/6 fibre/steel, convex washer (rounded edge out), locking washer piece, locking nut (i assume curved portion in?, then the normal spring and pressure plate as normal.

Offline PeWe

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Re: *please help* clutch issue
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2021, 09:02:31 AM »
The K2 clutch has no circlip holding the outer steel basket into the primary chain hub splined shaft.
But has a larger splined washer to be mounted direct after steel basket.
After that the clutch package, convex washer, locking washer with tabs, clutch nut.

The splines on both parts clamping the clutch package together must match end enter into each other. It can be assembled in 4 ways, only 2 will work.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline HondaMan

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Re: *please help* clutch issue
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2021, 09:33:30 AM »
Maybe a bit of description will help here?
First, this is a wet clutch. This means that it will always drag (a LOT) until the engine is turning and the plates are unloaded (by pulling in the clutch lifter). At that time, the oil that has pooled up (thru those little holes in the spinning hub) against the metal fingers of the steel plates will swiftly spread between the cork and the steel plates, like in less than 100 mS (0.1 second) and the cork will let go of the steel plates.

So...on a non-running engine, the clutch will never disengage. The plate will simply stick together because the oil can't force its way between the plates.

Next: the spline washer must be there on the mainshaft to hold (space) the clutch basket in position. The rounded side of that washer should be toward you when you put it in, but it will work OK if backward, eventually rounding the other side against the back of the hub (and putting metal grindings thru the oil pump and into the filter, but not a serious problem in terms of performance...).

Others here have mentioned the common errors, which are:
- the spring washer that holds the basket to the mainshaft must have the rounded side domed out toward you so it acts like a spring holding the basket to the mainshaft when you tighten the nut to squish that washer down. Don't forget the little locktab into that fancy nut to prevent it ever coming loose.
-the clutch pack must be set into the splines in order to work: otherwise the pack will not engage (no friction) and you risk breaking the pressure plate from compressing the springs too far when tightening the bolts. It sounds like you figured this part out OK, though.
- the thickness of the clutch plates has become confusing as of late since the non-Honda vendors can mix up the plates in their inventory, or unknowing vendors can sell the wrong ones to unsuspecting customers (!). So, measure the thickness of your cork plates. You can get a cheap-but-good-enough set of calipers at Harbor Freight for under $20 that measures both inch & metric, or just get the inch type with the dial and a calculator if you want metric numbers. The cork plates for the 750 are all in the range of 0.136"-0.140" when new and are (very) worn out if they are less than 0.120". Trouble is: you can get brand-new plates that are 0.109" thick or 0.128" thick that fit just fine - but they won't work. To solve the too-many-too-thin problem on a 750 I just assembled, there ended up being one more cork and steel plate to make the stack "whole" again, because the owner had used the 0.109" plates and it ended up having 8 cork plates instead of 7.
---so, measure the thickness of your cork plates, make sure they are between 0.135"-0.140" and replace if necessary. You can get the right ones at PartsNmore.com, contact me if you need their part numbers.

Last: when all is assembled, the oil gets squished out and the plates bind. Attempting to disengage the wet clutch on a stationary engine will NOT disengage the clutch at all because the oil will not slip between the plates so the tranny's gears can drag slower than the crankshaft speed to break the suction and friction of the cork. This only happens when the engine is actually running and some sort of load (like the mass of the rear wheel) is there to break the grip of the wetted cork from the steel plates. That's why these gearboxes (famously) 'clunk" when shifted: that is their nature.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline spanners

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Re: *please help* clutch issue
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2021, 10:26:52 AM »
Reading through from the beginning again, when all assembled with the splined thick washer, you mention that the clutch adjusting nut hardly has enough threads left to grip the nut?   removing it gave you more?  This sounds like something is mismatched somewhere.  Wrong parts fitted somewhere.

However, what I can't quite get my head around is,  you mentioned that with the splined washer on there  (and assume we are talking the splined washer between the clutch basket and clutch hub pack)  you get less thread for the clutch setting adjusting screw locking nut ?   Surley if the washer is on there, it would push everything towards the clutch adjusting mech and give you more thread for your nut, not the less?   

In any event, regarding the two sizes of spline washer and parts mismatch,  this link from 2012 was really interesting reading,  not sure if you have seen it already.
Quote
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=111938.0

« Last Edit: August 06, 2021, 05:01:18 PM by spanners »
1972 CB 750 K2
1975 CB 550 K1
2004 Boxercup Replica

Offline Bduck72750k

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Re: *please help* clutch issue
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2021, 12:47:21 PM »
Reading through from the beginning again, when all assembled with the splined thick washer, you mention that the clutch adjusting nut hardly has enough threads left to grip the nut?   removing it gave you more?  This sounds like something is mismatched somewhere.  Wrong parts fitted somewhere.

However, what I can't quite get my head around is,  you mentioned that with the splined washer on there  (and assume we are talking the splined washer between the clutch basket and clutch hub pack)  you get less thread for the adjusting nut?   Surley if the washer is on there, it would push everything towards the clutch adjusting mech and give you more thread on your adjusting nut, not the less?   

In any event, regarding the two sizes of spline washer and parts mismatch,  this link from 2012 was really interesting reading,  not sure if you have seen it already.
Quote
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=111938.0

I think with the washer on it creats the clutch assembly to sit off the shaft rather sitting flush. I definitely have to sit down and digest Hondamans reply and yours and go back to the bike and see what im doing wrong. Would it help to get the rear wheel in the air and run the bike. Or just start it in first and have it pull the bike rather than starting in neutral and basically slamming it in gear with lever in?

Offline Bduck72750k

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Re: *please help* clutch issue
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2021, 12:55:35 PM »
This is what i mean  not sitting flush when splined washer is unsed after clutch basket installed.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: *please help* clutch issue
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2021, 04:11:57 PM »
This is what i mean  not sitting flush when splined washer is unsed after clutch basket installed.
That will not be flush, in fact it MUST not be flush. The cupped spring washer holds the basket down over that threaded shaft. In Honda's production there might have been the K0 or K2 or K3 style clutch basket in the engine, so this spot is where they could apply mixed-or-matched parts to get the bike successfully running and out the door, so to speak. I explain this in detail in my book, but it actually takes an example like this one to see it in action, so to speak. ;)

If this engine had received the 6 (cork) plate K0 hub with its wire latch for the 1st plate, the gap you see would be 1mm. If it received the typical 7-cork-plate clutch hub, the depth wil be about 3.5mm or a bit more. In between was the modified version(s) of the K1 clutch, some which had the wire and some which did not: those without would leave this gap at about 2.2mm or so.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Bduck72750k

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Re: *please help* clutch issue
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2021, 04:48:13 PM »
This is what i mean  not sitting flush when splined washer is unsed after clutch basket installed.
That will not be flush, in fact it MUST not be flush. The cupped spring washer holds the basket down over that threaded shaft. In Honda's production there might have been the K0 or K2 or K3 style clutch basket in the engine, so this spot is where they could apply mixed-or-matched parts to get the bike successfully running and out the door, so to speak. I explain this in detail in my book, but it actually takes an example like this one to see it in action, so to speak. ;)

If this engine had received the 6 (cork) plate K0 hub with its wire latch for the 1st plate, the gap you see would be 1mm. If it received the typical 7-cork-plate clutch hub, the depth wil be about 3.5mm or a bit more. In between was the modified version(s) of the K1 clutch, some which had the wire and some which did not: those without would leave this gap at about 2.2mm or so.

So i assembled as such and had it with the rear wheel in the air tonight and had it warmed up and put it in first, i then gave it some throttle and hit the rear brake and did this maybe twice and it broke free!! I ran it up and down the street and it shifts very well! It has the clutch mod you had recommended in your book and super happy i have it figured out, thanks to all of you guys!

Offline Bduck72750k

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Re: *please help* clutch issue
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2021, 04:48:55 PM »
Ill post a video i took in a bit!

Offline spanners

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Re: *please help* clutch issue
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2021, 05:12:27 PM »
When you said

Quote
My problem is that when i put it all together i dont have enough on the adjustment screw so the nut has like maybe a thread to hold it on.

As you called it an adjusting screw,  I assumed earlier you were talking about the clutch setting adjusting screw and lock nut?   Or are you talking about the Main clutch hub to main shaft retaining nut.  That has the dished washer and lock tab under it?  That does not have enough thread?
1972 CB 750 K2
1975 CB 550 K1
2004 Boxercup Replica

Offline Bduck72750k

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Re: *please help* clutch issue
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2021, 06:05:12 PM »
When you said

Quote
My problem is that when i put it all together i dont have enough on the adjustment screw so the nut has like maybe a thread to hold it on.

As you called it an adjusting screw,  I assumed earlier you were talking about the clutch setting adjusting screw and lock nut?   Or are you talking about the Main clutch hub to main shaft retaining nut.  That has the dished washer and lock tab under it?  That does not have enough thread?

I hadn’t put it together with the 7/6 fibre and steel plates, and when i attempted 7/7 just for the hell of it, it resulted with not enough threads on the adjustment bolt/nut that adjusts the clutch cable. Once i did that tonight i bottomed it out and went back 1/4 turn and had perfect amount of threads and great lever feel.

Offline PeWe

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Re: *please help* clutch issue
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2021, 11:01:16 PM »
Check the clutch arm play when engine is cold and warm.
I got a slip when only backing the screw 1/4. I backed closer to 1/2 turn out.
I think the bearing might spin most of the time if the play is too small, the clutch actuator is pressing against bearing.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline spanners

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Re: *please help* clutch issue
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2021, 11:08:26 AM »
Hi,
Looking back at your original picture of those clutch plates,  its a pretty good picture,  if you zoom in, three of the steel plates look very blue.  It might just be a trick of the light or they may be that colour naturally anyway,  but did you check each one on a flat glass surface for example, against the spec with a feeler gauge, just in case any were particularly warped? 

1972 CB 750 K2
1975 CB 550 K1
2004 Boxercup Replica

Offline Stev-o

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Re: *please help* clutch issue
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2021, 07:08:19 AM »
Good to see that it is working...
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline ekpent

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Re: *please help* clutch issue
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2021, 07:11:18 AM »
 What was wrong with it to make it work again ?

Offline Stev-o

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Re: *please help* clutch issue
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2021, 07:53:03 AM »
What was wrong with it to make it work again ?

Seems like it was just stuck...
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline Bduck72750k

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Re: *please help* clutch issue
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2021, 09:30:51 AM »
It was just stuck! But now battling with backfiring at idle. Im using carpy’s 4into1 exhaust with steel dragon performance bread box

Offline spanners

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Re: *please help* clutch issue
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2021, 11:20:25 AM »
Probably something just stuck  ;)
1972 CB 750 K2
1975 CB 550 K1
2004 Boxercup Replica

Offline Bduck72750k

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Re: *please help* clutch issue
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2021, 12:30:26 PM »
Probably something just stuck  ;)

Are you talking clutch or carbs? Lol

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: *please help* clutch issue
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2021, 12:42:44 PM »
Backfiring from lean mix or excess fuel lighting off in the exhaust after the exhaust starts to get hot enough to light off any unburnt mixture making it into the exhaust?
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline Bduck72750k

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Re: *please help* clutch issue
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2021, 01:23:20 PM »
Backfiring from lean mix or excess fuel lighting off in the exhaust after the exhaust starts to get hot enough to light off any unburnt mixture making it into the exhaust?

Gotcha; i was running the bike down the road and it became too lean constantly backfiring at idle and liked to bog down. With those two modifications i chose to start with 115 main jet and 40 slow jet with needle in second to last position. They are the round top carbs off a 1974 CB750. I have a carbtune pro hooked up when warm trying to idle and adjust. I jjst picked up more plugs because they are fouled out and i think its causing problems with trying to sync carbs. My carbs were originally synchronized with a 110 i believe.