Author Topic: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip  (Read 3478 times)

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Offline jakec

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Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« on: August 10, 2021, 06:15:33 pm »
CL350 twin. I was on the final leg of a 600+ mile (multi-day) trip and I pulled off the main highway after holding 65mph (7500rpm in 5th gear) for about 20-30 miles. We go through a couple stop signs and turns, and then as I'm going down this smaller road I notice a VERY sudden bogging sound and stop right away. I restart the bike and it is normal although the idle is high (16-1800rpm). I check some things like fuel flow, fuel level, venting, sound of air leaks, but don't see anything wrong. As we continue to ride the power is a somewhat low but manageable if rpms are kept low. Power would surge up and down (like battery dead or out of gas) if too much throttle. We pulled into a town and I tested the battery at an auto parts store (13.8v). I checked plugs (see photo). Finally I figured there was nothing I could do here so I limped it home another 40 miles or so, going very slow.

I just got it apart, suspecting a restricted fuel flow to #1 based on the plugs. But I did not immediately find anything wrong with the carbs / jets / petcock / fuel line etc. I did notice white reside on the engine side of the #1 carb and also on the plug (see photo)? Also a leaky float on #2 (may explain dark #2 plug).

Finally I have checked the points which I thought may be wearing down due to the high mileage (18k) and multiple days of 100+ mile riding. Sure enough they look bad (see photo). Would that be a cause of the SUDDEN failure and give these symptoms?

At this point I will be cleaning the carbs and rebuilding, and waiting on a replacement float. I will also clean points contacts and check timing. In the meantime I'm looking for other suggestions?







1970 CB750 K0 Stock
1970 CL350 K2 Stock
1975 CB400 F Stock
1977 CB750 F Hardtail

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2021, 06:26:43 pm »
Fuel restriction?
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Offline Kelly E

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2021, 06:28:27 pm »
Those points look fried.
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Offline jakec

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2021, 07:02:50 pm »
Do you think the red powder is shavings from the points arms? That's the only thing I can think of since my gasket is intact.
1970 CB750 K0 Stock
1970 CL350 K2 Stock
1975 CB400 F Stock
1977 CB750 F Hardtail

Offline Kevnz

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2021, 08:33:48 pm »
Going back some time, my mate's 350 had a similar problem and it turned out to be worn cam bearing. CL same as CB? Points are at the end of the cam and play there messes up with the points gap and timing. I know there's no bearing as such but that was the cause,as I recall.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2021, 09:15:13 pm »
Do you think the red powder is shavings from the points arms? That's the only thing I can think of since my gasket is intact.
If it is from the points arms, check the points gap, as wear on the arms would allow the gap to decrease.
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Offline Don R

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2021, 01:00:38 pm »
 I've seen the rubbing block worn to the point where the points could not be set. On a bike previously owned by an old school  mechanic.
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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2021, 03:12:15 pm »
Going back some time, my mate's 350 had a similar problem and it turned out to be worn cam bearing. CL same as CB? Points are at the end of the cam and play there messes up with the points gap and timing. I know there's no bearing as such but that was the cause,as I recall.
yup, I have owned 3 cb350k's that all had this problem.  The last one was so bad, the points would not stay set for more than 20 or 30 miles.  And of course there is no cost effective fix for these cam bearings other than finding a new cylinder head in better shape...no more 350 Honda twins for me...
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Offline jakec

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2021, 09:37:41 am »
I've seen the rubbing block worn to the point where the points could not be set. On a bike previously owned by an old school  mechanic.

Whats the rubbing block? The points cam?
1970 CB750 K0 Stock
1970 CL350 K2 Stock
1975 CB400 F Stock
1977 CB750 F Hardtail

Offline Don R

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2021, 10:32:31 am »
 Yes the part of the point that contacts the points cam. That's why we use special points lube. Often it's dried up when we get these bikes.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
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Offline jakec

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2021, 12:36:53 pm »
I see. Ok my first step will be to clean the area then check current points gap, then see if I can adjust to spec. Then clean contacts and adjust timing. See if it works from there.
1970 CB750 K0 Stock
1970 CL350 K2 Stock
1975 CB400 F Stock
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Offline jakec

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2021, 08:30:42 pm »
So carbs are cleaned and back in the bike even though that probably had nothing to do with the problem. The points were barely opening and closing, with an almost none existent spark on 1 and OK spark on 2. So I set the point gap to 0.33mm on both sides, enlarging the gap. I also sanded the points contacts with 6 or 800 sandpaper, pulling it through while they were closed. However they both still look really pitted. Like there is a small whiteish crater in the middle.

Anyways I went to set the timing after that and I can't get a detectable spark from the left (1) cylinder to start the process. I can only get a very weak spark from kicking it over. Turning the crank I get nothing. So I am guessing that means the points contacts are bad. This is a bike I've been riding and maintaining for 4 years (about 8000 miles) so i would suspect moving parts, not something like coils, plug cap, etc.

Anyone have beef with the reproduction points available from 4into1?

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1970 CB750 K0 Stock
1970 CL350 K2 Stock
1975 CB400 F Stock
1977 CB750 F Hardtail

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2021, 08:57:03 pm »
The #1 problem like this I find on these CB/CL/SL350 engines is: the spark advancer itself. (It shows up immediately when riders try to fit the Transistorized Ignition to a bad one.)

It goes like this: there were (once in its life) 2 or 3 thin plastic washer shims behind the spark advancer's points cam that shimmed it outward to be square against the face of the back of that washer that holds it onto the end of the cam. (whew.)

When these shims melt and disappear the first symptom is: the gap on the 2 sets of points must be different in order to make timing meet the marks. (Sound familiar?) Typically the L points end up around 0.012" and the R points around 0.016", which then causes the L coil to have a weak spark and sparkplug that fouls. (Am I getting warm?)

When this happens, you must make new shims, at least 2, to push the little points cam back out toward the back of the washer. The clearance between the cam and the washer should be no less than 0.002" and no more than 0.006", and if you set it up on a typical summer day it should be about 0.004". You can measure how much gap is there now, then get some brass sheet at the hardware store and cut some washers out with a razor blade, as you will be cutting brass sheet of about 0.002" thickness to make these. Brass ones will outlive you.

This MUST be done in order to use the Transistorized Ignition on these bikes (and the CB/CB450, too) or else the L coil's spark doubles below 3000 RPM and the bike idles not at all, or is so hard to start it's silly. The simple shims fix this right up.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline jakec

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2021, 11:14:35 pm »
I will look at the advancer tomorrow, I have definitely seen those spacers/washer intact before on another bike.
1970 CB750 K0 Stock
1970 CL350 K2 Stock
1975 CB400 F Stock
1977 CB750 F Hardtail

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2021, 02:27:20 am »
Where can you buy good points rubbing block grease these days? When I bought points from DrATV I either bought tiny packets when I ordered points for my single cylinder & small Honda twins or they came with them. Likely the former.
Honda dealer usually have it on hand or are there other greases at auto parts stores that work OK?
Sorry if this is a bit off topic...
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2021, 09:43:17 am »
Where can you buy good points rubbing block grease these days? When I bought points from DrATV I either bought tiny packets when I ordered points for my single cylinder & small Honda twins or they came with them. Likely the former.
Honda dealer usually have it on hand or are there other greases at auto parts stores that work OK?
Sorry if this is a bit off topic...

I had to ask the local O'Reilley's to bring in a tube of Points Lube, Blue Streak still makes it. One tube lasts for hundreds of bikes, mine is about 30% gone now. It's about the size of the toothpaste tube the dentist gives me when I go there.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2021, 10:24:59 am »
Thanks Mark!
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline jakec

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2021, 06:28:08 pm »
Ok I’m pretty stumped. Here’s what I did so far.

1. Rebuild advancer cleaning it and lubing its moving parts. It snaps back and the cam is facing the right way. It was pretty stiff before. Also those shim washers are still there.

2. Got some new points from 4into1 that were totally garbage so I’m not using them. Contacts aren’t even flat from factory. However my contacts were so bad on my OEM ones I can’t fix them. So I got a used set off my friends bike. They’re in good condition.

3. Adjusted cam chain tensioner.

Here’s my problem. I’ve tried every gap in the spec range 0.3 - 0.4mm. No matter that I do the LF spark is advanced like 5*. And adjusting points plate does pretty much nothing, soon running out of adjustment before getting spark on time. I tried gap of 0.25mm and 0.2mm as well and the initial timing was exactly the same spot (with plate in middle of adjustment range). I’ve probably spent 6 hours messing with points gap and I’m getting the same results every time.
1970 CB750 K0 Stock
1970 CL350 K2 Stock
1975 CB400 F Stock
1977 CB750 F Hardtail

Offline jakec

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2021, 06:35:01 pm »
Also I’ve read almost every post on the subject between here and hondatwins, and it always comes down to points gap. I’ve read that a larger gap will lead to needing to rotate plate further to change timing. That’s why I tried gaps under spec.
1970 CB750 K0 Stock
1970 CL350 K2 Stock
1975 CB400 F Stock
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Offline jakec

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2021, 06:41:43 pm »
 :o ??
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1975 CB400 F Stock
1977 CB750 F Hardtail

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2021, 09:37:01 pm »
Ok I’m pretty stumped. Here’s what I did so far.

1. Rebuild advancer cleaning it and lubing its moving parts. It snaps back and the cam is facing the right way. It was pretty stiff before. Also those shim washers are still there.

2. Got some new points from 4into1 that were totally garbage so I’m not using them. Contacts aren’t even flat from factory. However my contacts were so bad on my OEM ones I can’t fix them. So I got a used set off my friends bike. They’re in good condition.

3. Adjusted cam chain tensioner.

Here’s my problem. I’ve tried every gap in the spec range 0.3 - 0.4mm. No matter that I do the LF spark is advanced like 5*. And adjusting points plate does pretty much nothing, soon running out of adjustment before getting spark on time. I tried gap of 0.25mm and 0.2mm as well and the initial timing was exactly the same spot (with plate in middle of adjustment range). I’ve probably spent 6 hours messing with points gap and I’m getting the same results every time.

I'm trying to puzzle thru this symptom, but it raises a question: what idle speed are you running the engine at while setting the idle timing?

Another thing I failed to mention earlier that is very common with the 350 twin: the rubber diaphragms in the carbs develop cracks in them, which will make the idle hang "high" and then, if you try to adjust the idle screw, drop off to nothing. When riding, they tend to 'hang' when the throttle is released and also make for sluggish throttle response when you snap open the grip with a big handful. You can loosen the clamps on the carbs and rotate them a little, remove the top screws and plate, and look carefully at the diaphragms to see if they are cracked: many (most) are now. Common Parts can sometimes provide them, maybe also DSS. Honda has them once in a while, and theirs last the longest. I have occasionally seen (on college kids' bikes, always the poor but inventive riders) the cracks treated (on the top side) with rubber cement for a temporary fix. DON'T put this on the bottom side of the rubber or it will jam the slides when it dissolves from gasoline fumes.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline jakec

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2021, 11:36:27 pm »
This is setting static timing.
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1970 CL350 K2 Stock
1975 CB400 F Stock
1977 CB750 F Hardtail

Offline jakec

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2021, 10:39:58 am »
Please someone  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(
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Offline maxheadflow

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2021, 11:22:35 am »
Make sure the coil is well grounded and the engine well grounded to the frame.  Condensers are mounted on top of the coils and if they don't have a good ground you'll get some weird stuff.

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2021, 01:12:02 pm »
Could you talk your friend into swapping over the advancer and points plate from his bike to yours for diagnostic test. Certainly would eliminate you having parts that are dodgy or improperly working. Increasing the slot travel on the left points might get you in the ballpark, but it sounds like you are dealing with Daichi points as they often exhibit these problems.
Common Motor Collective or Honda carry points for your bike?
David- back in the desert SW!