Author Topic: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip  (Read 4497 times)

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Offline jakec

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2021, 03:13:18 PM »
If you look at the pic that I posted of the end of the camshaft it looks like the pin is advanced 5 degrees right? I feel like that's the problem? It should be straight up at TDC. I've read threads about people asking if they had their cam chain skip a tooth, but I haven't seen a thread where someone confirmed it happened.

I may be able to ask to borrow an advancer. The points I am using are aftermarket (the ones from my friend) but they are actually nice unlike the ones I got from 4into1. I am using the original TEC plate. On the 350 you cant enlarge the points plate rotation because it hits the rocker adjustment nuts.
1970 CB750 K0
1977 CB750 Chop
1997 XR650L

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2021, 08:05:13 AM »
If the cam chain skips a tooth, the cam index would be opposite (late) that which is shown in the picture, with the dowel pin pointing off toward your right as you view it. It doesn't look quite right if that is where it sits when the crankshaft is at TDC, though: if someone had the engine apart and mis-timed the chain a tooth, it could be advanced one. This would indeed make it really hard (near impossible) to make the spark timing correct.

Speaking in engineering-ese: when the cam chains get worn, the design is for the cam timing to start running a little bit late so it will not cause the intake valve(s) to open sooner than they should: this could cause piston-to-valve collisions at high RPM. Instead, when the chain stretches out the valves open slightly later. The points also open slightly later, which tends to make the engine not reach redline speeds easily.

If your cam is indeed a tooth 'early' then setting the ignition timing statically will result in very small points gaps, and setting the gaps to specification will cause very early (advanced) spark timing. Too-small points gaps (less than 0.012") causes very burnt points because they then will not open far enough to stop the arcing. That could explain why they burned so much, if they have low miles. Normally the 350 uses a set of points in about 8,000-10,000 miles.

It is easy to mis-time these engines when they are being reassembled, I've done it myself! :(
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
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Offline maxheadflow

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2021, 09:28:34 AM »
It's totally possible that the cam timing is set off, not knowing the full history of the bike. It possible that the cam chain has stretched to the point where , when it was assembled, the marks looked closer with the cam advanced one tooth than retarded. As cam chains stretch, the cams retard. It the chain were to slip one tooth it would retard.

If the bike was running fine and the problem occurred all of a sudden, I doubt it was the cam timing that caused the issue..  If it both cylinders I'd be inclined to believe it's electrical.

The red crap under the points cover is rust from the advance mechanism. Points covers on there don't seal that well.  It need to be cleaned for sure.

Cant get the timing set? Cut some points plate. I doubt it's the issue.

Offline jakec

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2021, 09:43:32 AM »
So the engine is at 18k miles. When I got the bike it had about 11k miles. In that time I had adjusted the timing twice and I never had a problem. I don't think the engine was opened before I got it. I don't think it's possible the engine has been advanced one tooth this whole time.

I see what you're saying about the cam chain slipping under power would result a retarded timing. But what if the cam chain slipped backwards, because I was engine braking? With a super high mileage cam chain and a loose tensioner, could this happen?

I would probably have to set a super small point gap to get the static timing. And I did have super burnt out points. Both cylinders spark at equally advanced time (shown in pic earlier)
1970 CB750 K0
1977 CB750 Chop
1997 XR650L

Offline maxheadflow

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2021, 10:42:38 AM »
Does anyone know if the advance on this bike has rubber bump stops for the weights. I seem to remember some Honda units did but it's been 45 years since I've looked at one.

Quote
But what if the cam chain slipped backwards, because I was engine braking?

I think you mean forwards. I'd doubt it.  Does this bike have the hydraulic tensioner?  IIRC only the 68s had them. Maybe the 69s.

Offline jakec

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2021, 11:12:15 AM »
It has a manual tensioner. But last time I did a tuneup I did not adjust it because I wrongly thought that I had the hydraulic type. There are no rubber stops on the advance unit.
1970 CB750 K0
1977 CB750 Chop
1997 XR650L

Offline maxheadflow

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2021, 12:50:08 PM »
It has a manual tensioner. But last time I did a tuneup I did not adjust it because I wrongly thought that I had the hydraulic type. There are no rubber stops on the advance unit.

So the last time you did the timing, the points gap was OK?

Generally the cam chain would have to be way loose for the chain to jump a tooth on a sprocket.  You'd hear it at idle. 

Is it possible that the alternator rotor  rotated on the crank?  Has the rotor bolt ever been removed or loose? 

Offline jakec

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2021, 01:25:31 PM »
Yes, the last time I checked the points was like 2 years ago and it only took me like 10 minutes to set the timing dead on. No issues. Is it even possible for the rotor to rotate on the crank? I think there is an indexing pin so it cannot rotate.
1970 CB750 K0
1977 CB750 Chop
1997 XR650L

Offline maxheadflow

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2021, 02:08:22 PM »
It has a woodruff key but if run loose it can sheer.  Probably not the issue.  Is the motor nice a quiet?

Offline maxheadflow

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2021, 02:20:46 PM »
BTW, looking at the picture where the advance mech is removed, it looks like the intake adjuster is twisted the wrong way.  Can you post a picture of the points plate with everything cleaned up?  Part of the problem might simply be that the washers on the adjusters are too big?

Offline jakec

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2021, 03:20:34 PM »
Yes, the adjuster is backwards. It was like that when I got the bike. I've always been able to set the valve clearance just fine as is though. No, the motor was never very quiet. Pretty loud actually. I always assumed it was due to a loose cam chain as it was already at 11k when I got it.
1970 CB750 K0
1977 CB750 Chop
1997 XR650L

Offline maxheadflow

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2021, 04:40:02 PM »
well. it's hard on the valve train that way.  The rocker isn't centered on the valve stem. 

The only thing I can think about the could cause the cam to advance would be if a cam bolt fell out or something else and got caught in the lower cam sprocket. It would pull a tooth forward on the chain when this occurred. The bolt or whatever then fell into the crankcase.

Did the motor increase in noise level when the issue occurred?

Offline jakec

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2021, 09:24:26 AM »
No, the engine sounded the same. It started to bog but that was because I now had bad/badly timed spark. I was able to ride the rest of the way home with like 50% by keeping RPMs low (before advance kicks in I think).
1970 CB750 K0
1977 CB750 Chop
1997 XR650L

Offline jakec

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2021, 05:32:58 PM »
I adjusted the cam chain tension a couple weeks ago before I started putting the points back on and trying timing. I thought I did it correctly but it's always possible I made a mistake. Would it even be a possible cause though? Cam chain too lose when engine is at rest? The amount of advance just seems like it's too much.
1970 CB750 K0
1977 CB750 Chop
1997 XR650L

Offline jakec

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2021, 05:56:23 PM »
Rechecking tensioner adjustment now. Attached is the exact point where Left side exhaust valve starts opening. Seems early. Right before this point all 4 rockers are loose. No sound heard when releasing the tensioner bolt.
1970 CB750 K0
1977 CB750 Chop
1997 XR650L

Offline jakec

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2021, 06:26:52 PM »
Adjusted gap and attempted to set timing again. Everything is still the same. LF fires a few degrees early and no amount of adjustment (retard) will get it even close to the mark.
1970 CB750 K0
1977 CB750 Chop
1997 XR650L

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2021, 06:41:00 PM »
Sounds like you need to open it up and redo or replace cam chain and investigate for damage...
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline maxheadflow

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2021, 11:40:03 AM »
No, the engine sounded the same. It started to bog but that was because I now had bad/badly timed spark. I was able to ride the rest of the way home with like 50% by keeping RPMs low (before advance kicks in I think).

Well. If it was timed correctly before and all of a sudden not, the advancer pin shows the cam to be advanced, and the cam chain makes a lot of noise, I'd say something went through the lower timing chain sprocket that was enough to advance it one tooth. 

Back when there were new, if you let the cam chain get loose, it would eat the tensioners.  With them adjusted correctly they'd run forever.  The 450s were really prone to this issue since they had something like 7 chain rollers. 

Offline jakec

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2021, 01:19:56 PM »
Since I was already planning on a top end rebuild this winter (extreme oil leaks at head gasket) it's starting to feel like I should just tear it down. Since I can't think of anything else to try. Tensioner is probably in rough shape since it was loose for so long.
1970 CB750 K0
1977 CB750 Chop
1997 XR650L

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2021, 05:49:33 PM »
Since I was already planning on a top end rebuild this winter (extreme oil leaks at head gasket) it's starting to feel like I should just tear it down. Since I can't think of anything else to try. Tensioner is probably in rough shape since it was loose for so long.

What I have seen in the 350 from worn cam chain parts is the metal filings gathering in the oil from where the cam chain rubs against the tensioners where the rubber is gone. If the chain is loose enough to jump a tooth, it will often jump more than once (or more than one tooth) pretty soon after the first event. That said, most of the ones I saw 'jumped' happened during dragraces, either street or track, with missed-shift incidents and high RPM moments. In those several situations the rubber was missing enough on the slipper tensioner that the tensioner had no more range and the slack could not be removed. But, whether that was the CAUSE or the RESULT of the slipped timing was indeterminate.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline jakec

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #45 on: September 09, 2021, 07:58:04 PM »
Well would you look at that.
1970 CB750 K0
1977 CB750 Chop
1997 XR650L

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #46 on: September 09, 2021, 08:01:26 PM »
Sorry, unfamiliar with the model to know whatyou are trying to show...
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline jakec

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #47 on: September 09, 2021, 08:03:39 PM »
Camshaft is advanced. Cam chain tensioner not looking so hot either (plunger removed after pic of camshaft was taken)
1970 CB750 K0
1977 CB750 Chop
1997 XR650L

Offline jakec

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2021, 08:16:00 PM »
More gore
1970 CB750 K0
1977 CB750 Chop
1997 XR650L

Offline jakec

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Re: Suddenly cutting out & surging during long trip
« Reply #49 on: September 16, 2021, 06:38:51 PM »
Anyone have experience with 350s and have a thought whether I should split the cases or not?I really would rather not lol.
1970 CB750 K0
1977 CB750 Chop
1997 XR650L