Topic: Custom Transmission Gears

[Rocketman]

Trying to find someone who can manufacture one off transmission gears. Something along the lines of the close ratio gears Moore Performance made for my CB550. He reduced first gear on the sprocket shaft by 3 teeth and fifth gear on the clutch shaft by one tooth. The gear on the opposing shaft is stock. Trying to get a gear made to close up the gap between fourth and fifth on my brother’s enduro based roadracer. Need to change the 22 tooth fifth to 21 teeth. Nova is not interested nor is Robinson in the US. Asked Motogears and they want to change both gears. May take another run at Motogears. Any suggestions welcomed.

[turboguzzi]

what enduro is it based on?
i raced a XTZ660 based supermono in the past, so collected some info...

[Sam Green Racing]

Trying to find someone who can manufacture one off transmission gears. Something along the lines of the close ratio gears Moore Performance made for my CB550. He reduced first gear on the sprocket shaft by 3 teeth and fifth gear on the clutch shaft by one tooth. The gear on the opposing shaft is stock. Trying to get a gear made to close up the gap between fourth and fifth on my brother’s enduro based roadracer. Need to change the 22 tooth fifth to 21 teeth. Nova is not interested nor is Robinson in the US. Asked Motogears and they want to change both gears. May take another run at Motogears. Any suggestions welcomed.

Rocketman, can Ellis Moore not still do the work for you ?

Sam.

[Rocketman]

His racer is based on a 1972 Kawasaki F7. He is using a fifth gear set out of a KE 175 which is slightly better than the stock F7 fifth gears.

My understanding is Ellis has shut down his business after a racing accident. That would be wonderful news if he is okay and back making gears.

[bwaller]

Martin, send me an email with a picture and I'll contact my guy. If it's a simple job it's probably worth checking with him.

[simon#42]

His racer is based on a 1972 Kawasaki F7. He is using a fifth gear set out of a KE 175 which is slightly better than the stock F7 fifth gears.

My understanding is Ellis has shut down his business after a racing accident. That would be wonderful news if he is okay and back making gears.

i dont think he is ok and as far as i am aware he is no longer making gears .

[Sam Green Racing]

His racer is based on a 1972 Kawasaki F7. He is using a fifth gear set out of a KE 175 which is slightly better than the stock F7 fifth gears.

My understanding is Ellis has shut down his business after a racing accident. That would be wonderful news if he is okay and back making gears.

i dont think he is ok and as far as i am aware he is no longer making gears .

Simon and Rocketman, he only lives a few miles from me but I hadn't heard of this, I hope he is OK.
If I remember, I'll ring him tomorrow.

[grcamna2]

subscribed

[simon#42]

hi sam  , as far as i am aware he had an accident at aintree a few years ago and was paralysed  .

[754]

 Think about it, I dont think you can change tooth count on one gear and not the other.. unless you change shaft centers..
 Its not sprockets you are changing..

 If you dont understand this, I can see why they say No..

[bwaller]

Well Frank, that's exactly what I did when I built the 6spd then tightened the ratios!

[MRieck]

Think about it, I dont think you can change tooth count on one gear and not the other.. unless you change shaft centers..
 Its not sprockets you are changing..

 If you dont understand this, I can see why they say No..

Yes.....it's a 2 gear change. I usually don't comment on stuff like this but it is a very basic point.

[simon#42]

no its not always a 2 gear swap . my rotax has a choice of 6 ratios for each gear and they are changed for each circuit . sometimes its a 2 gear change sometimes only one .

[kmb69]

Think about it, I dont think you can change tooth count on one gear and not the other.. unless you change shaft centers..
 Its not sprockets you are changing..

 If you dont understand this, I can see why they say No..

Yes.....it's a 2 gear change. I usually don't comment on stuff like this but it is a very basic point.

Yes, you can sometimes change only one, depending on size of gear(s), tooth count, etc.
It's called "profile shifting".

[bwaller]

Think about it, I dont think you can change tooth count on one gear and not the other.. unless you change shaft centers..
 Its not sprockets you are changing..

 If you dont understand this, I can see why they say No..

Yes.....it's a 2 gear change. I usually don't comment on stuff like this but it is a very basic point.

Yes, you can sometimes change only one, depending on size of gear(s), tooth count, etc.
It's called "profile shifting".

Thanks for the explanation Keith, and I won't pretend to be in the know as to the process, but this is what Ellis did for me. I picked the ratios that I wanted and determined tooth count change needed. There were four individual gears on one shaft or the other, and for 1st gear it required a new mainshaft (integral 1st gear) and it's mate on the countershaft needed to be replaced. For two individual gears, there was a 2 tooth change.

[turboguzzi]

hi sam  , as far as i am aware he had an accident at aintree a few years ago and was paralysed  .

had only some email exchanges with the guy, but still very very sad to hear this. I hope for him all the best, even if in that condition, life is not really smiling at you.

[bwaller]

Agreed TG. He was a fellow racer and I hope he is able to enjoy life.

[MRieck]

Think about it, I dont think you can change tooth count on one gear and not the other.. unless you change shaft centers..
 Its not sprockets you are changing..

 If you dont understand this, I can see why they say No..

Yes.....it's a 2 gear change. I usually don't comment on stuff like this but it is a very basic point.

Yes, you can sometimes change only one, depending on size of gear(s), tooth count, etc.
It's called "profile shifting".

I stand corrected. My point was based on trying to swap gears years ago from F2 to K transmissions. Thanks for the clarification fellas.

[turboguzzi]

in the town where my GF lives there's a guy doing gears for vintage rally cars.
 showed him a pair i needed for my supermono, he could replicate them no problem, but setting up the machine for just 1 set puts you in the hundreds of $/£/Euro range per unit.
if you can pool some people into doing a small run gets way cheaper... but cant think that many guys racing kawasaki 2 stroke off-road singles!

[Rocketman]

You are right on that TG!  Off road Kawasaki two stroke enduro road racers are few and far between!  My brother has decided to go with Motogears. Hoping they can use one of the F7 or KE 175 stock gears. If not he will have a set made. Will post his experience and the amount spent.

[turboguzzi]

czech republic, interesting,
out of curiosity, how much were they quoting you for a one gear or a matched set of 2?

[Rocketman]

The quote for a pair of gears is 400 euros. I thought the price was reasonable. We will see if they deliver quality parts in a timely manner.

[kmb69]

This attachment shows a good example of a "Profile Shifted" gear.
The centerline is such that the small gear cannot have the standard Module 2 tooth form to match the large gear.
Same type of thing is done occasionally to change gear ratios.
They can be thickened or thinned keeping the same pitch.

[754]

 Its a new concept to me, goes against all the tgeory we were taught.
 So i can see changing the big one a tooth or two,  but changing the smaller  even 1 tooth would really affect clearance a lot.
 Must be increased wear ir noise when doing this ?

[kmb69]

Its a new concept to me, goes against all the tgeory we were taught.
 So i can see changing the big one a tooth or two,  but changing the smaller  even 1 tooth would really affect clearance a lot.
 Must be increased wear ir noise when doing this ?

It is quite commonly done. These are stock Honda starter gear parts.
Old man Weissman, RIP, of Weissman Transmissions got his big start by changing ratios with only one of the gears for racers.
Most gear calculation software has the option to allow shifted profiles.

Cannot answer your last question.

[grcamna2]

Its a new concept to me, goes against all the tgeory we were taught.
 So i can see changing the big one a tooth or two,  but changing the smaller  even 1 tooth would really affect clearance a lot.
 Must be increased wear ir noise when doing this ?

It is quite commonly done. These are stock Honda starter gear parts.
Old man Weissman, RIP, of Weissman Transmissions got his big start by changing ratios with only one of the gears for racers.
Most gear calculation software has the option to allow shifted profiles.

Cannot answer your last questionl

I'm just learning on this.Do the factory gears have enough clearance in their tooth engagement engineered into them to allow a one-tooth change on a single transmission gear in the cluster ?   thanks,Bill

[kmb69]

Its a new concept to me, goes against all the tgeory we were taught.
 So i can see changing the big one a tooth or two,  but changing the smaller  even 1 tooth would really affect clearance a lot.
 Must be increased wear ir noise when doing this ?

It is quite commonly done. These are stock Honda starter gear parts.
Old man Weissman, RIP, of Weissman Transmissions got his big start by changing ratios with only one of the gears for racers.
Most gear calculation software has the option to allow shifted profiles.

Cannot answer your last questionl

I'm just learning on this.Do the factory gears have enough clearance in their tooth engagement engineered into them to allow a one-tooth change on a single transmission gear in the cluster ?   thanks,Bill

Clearance in tooth engagement is called backlash. It is usually approximately 0.005", more or less, depending on the size and pitch of the gears.
That in itself will not allow the ratio to be changed. The "pitch" of the altered gear cannot be changed but the pitch diameter, tooth profile, and number of teeth can be.
Typically, I think this involves reducing the tooth count on one of the gears and "fattening" the tooth form. a profile shift, to take up the "slack".
Going the other direction, thinning a tooth form, would probably weaken the gear's tooth form too much.

I just updated my Takisawa to precisely synchronize the main spindle with the milling spindle and bought a WTO gear hobbing unit to make some gears for myself.
This is being done to accommodate my CB750 billet crankshaft gear drive project. Already have the crankshafts. Attempting to machine the mating parts.

I am not an expert on this - just learning actually. I consider gear making to be "Black Magic" at this point, but it is quite interesting to me.

[gschuld]

Keith, you are a brave and talented guy.  I may question your sanity at times, but never your skills or determination.

I do look fwd to seeing that geared primary sohc in action.

George

[grcamna2]

Keith, you are a brave and talented guy.  I may question your sanity at times, but never your skills or determination.

I do look fwd to seeing that geared primary sohc in action.

George

I think Gear Primary is a great idea for our vintage sohcs 

I like what Keith said about changing the tooth profile:got it.

[gschuld]

Honda race department thought so too.  And they then dominated endurance racing with their RCB 1000 racers that started off with a modified sohc bottom end(with custom greared primary drive in custom cast cases) and a DOHC 4v head grafted on.

Not justifiable for street engines, but for really high end sohc race engines, that’s impressive equipment.  It takes dedicated talented masochists like Keith to actually make it happen.

George

[simon#42]

The quote for a pair of gears is 400 euros. I thought the price was reasonable. We will see if they deliver quality parts in a timely manner.

that is a good price i am interested to see how you get on . i have a couple of restoration projects that need gears that are no longer available .

[johno]

Speaking of surprises and gears, I see Honda have a contracting company in Italy that manufactures their transmissions and clutch hubs etc
They must be good.

They do work for other companies as well but not at a price for the average enthusiasts. The set up costs where it hurts, Developing the CAD blueprints for their CNC machines takes $

[turboguzzi]

Speaking of surprises and gears, I see Honda have a contracting company in Italy that manufactures their transmissions and clutch hubs etc
They must be good.

They do work for other companies as well but not at a price for the average enthusiasts. The set up costs where it hurts, Developing the CAD blueprints for their CNC machines takes $

company in italy? im all ears....

[MRieck]

One of my customers had special CBX cam gears made so we could change cam timing. I'm not going to get into the CBX cam thing with the gears but this fella made the gears. Not cheap but he made them from blank. I'll dig up his name tomorrow. Maybe he could help you.....gears are his thing.

[johno]

The gear manufacturer company is based in Bologna.
Costruzione Italiana Apparecchi - S.p.a

Web site "via-spa.com"

Ph: 0542 487 411

I used them once to makes some spare gears for Velo wine filters I used to sell, after Velo ( near Montebeluna ) went bankrupt . I didn't know at the time they were making transmissions and oil pumps for Honda bike division.

[johno]

oops ciapspa.com