Author Topic: DIY REGULATOR- For the Electronics Gurus out there  (Read 1727 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Kenzo1979

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 544
DIY REGULATOR- For the Electronics Gurus out there
« on: November 02, 2021, 08:20:38 AM »
I found a really good website out there that shares specific plans for a motorcycle regulator for a three phase permanent magnet alternator system. Here is the link:

https://mastercircuits.blogspot.com/2010/05/motorcycle-voltage-regulator.html?m=1

I know there are some real electronics buffs out there, so I figured I’d post this and see what they thought about the specifics of it and if it was tailored to our bikes or not.

A lot of people have upgraded to the combination regulator rectifier these days and if you’re strictly buying from Rick’s motor sports and you have multiple bikes, that can get pretty expensive - over $100 each. I see common motor sells one for about $65 And then I see a whole bunch on places like Amazon and eBay for about $15.  Makes me wonder what the differences are in components and quality to make these things vary in  price so much.

My usual move is to replace the rectifier with a new 5 leg Bridge Rec bolted to a piece of heat sink with some compound paste and just continue to use the original OEM mechanical regulator…But I do always wonder, what if the regulator goes bad? What if I get another project bike and the regulator is bad? Of course I will probably just buy a new combo unit, but if it were more feasible to build one, then why not? 

 I figured if somebody on here had the know-how and wanted to start putting their own units together, you could probably save yourself a lot of money.  So, just a share of something I came across on the inter-webs, not sure if this specific design has been shared before, I did a search with the website’s name and nothing came up on the forum.  Curious to see what people thought. Take it or leave it. Cheers!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: November 02, 2021, 08:22:37 AM by Kenzo1979 »
--Kenzo
** 71 CB500, 74 CB550, 76 CB400F, 77 CJ360t **

Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,955
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: DIY REGULATOR- For the Electronics Gurus out there
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2021, 09:39:34 AM »
If thats for permag it wnt work on the sohc which are variable field
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Kenzo1979

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 544
Re: DIY REGULATOR- For the Electronics Gurus out there
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2021, 09:49:33 AM »
If thats for permag it wnt work on the sohc which are variable field
Doh!  My bad.  Anything on that website apply to the variable field style?  I’ve been searching low and high for a good schematic where everything is completely spelled out including component part numbers.  May just have to buy one of the cheapos and disect it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
--Kenzo
** 71 CB500, 74 CB550, 76 CB400F, 77 CJ360t **

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: DIY REGULATOR- For the Electronics Gurus out there
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2021, 10:06:06 AM »
You are aware that the SOHC4 does not employ a permanent magnet, right?

Ours varies the alternator output strength by varying the magnetic strength of the field coil.

That is not to say the circuit you referred to wouldn't "work" with ours.  But you would have to wire the field coil direct to +12V.  And then let this design short out phases of the alternator output to keep from over charging the battery with the zener reference, rather than actually sensing the battery voltage ( and temperature) to make decisions about alternator output strength.   While the stator windings are robust enough to take routine shorting,  I fear for the field coil being run at 100% input power all the time.  I suspect wire insulation will break down with the constant heat.  I already have a field coil that fried, from adding extra power drain on the bike (radio and lights back in the 80s).  This forced the regulator to drive the field coil more than usual to keep the battery up.  The 550 is supposed to have about 5 ohms for the field coil.  And mine now has just under 4, with the resultant weak mag field strength and corresponding poor charging effort.  Good thing that bike has a light switch, as I can't run all the time with lighting on in city traffic.  Someday I'll put in the replacement field coil I acquired.  ...when my spare time is ever more copious. And I don't have other bikes to ride.  :-)

Out of all the SOHC4s I've had, only one Vreg didn't work like it was supposed to.  That was a bike where a PO tweaked it to try and compensate for corroded wiring terminals, worn switch contacts, and an oxidized fuse block.  After proper re-adjustment, it worked like it should.  In theory, the internal contacts should wear eventually.  But, the shop manual explains how to restore that portion back to spec.  Seems a pretty robust unit, to me.

One thing I see in the stock regulator, that I have never seen in a combo unit, is temperature comp for battery state of charge.  See, a lead acid battery will display a lower voltage when cold even at full charge.  If you try and charge it, as it were a hot battery, you can overcharge it and boil off water in the electrolyte.  The stock regulator compensates for that, as well as some battery chargers/maintainers, but it is not very common, as it requires a bit of extra engineering cost that 90% of customers simply won't pay extra to have.  I assume it is ignored, that battery replacement is more frequent than it should be.

FWIW

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Kenzo1979

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 544
Re: DIY REGULATOR- For the Electronics Gurus out there
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2021, 10:16:45 AM »
I was aware of the variable over the permanent, just wasn’t sure how it played into the regulator circuit, if it mattered or if it was a situation where you just need to add or remove a section to/from the circuit to make it work.  From the first response to the post, it didn’t seem likely.  I just can’t imagine a regulator circuit for these systems being that complicated or coveted to where you can’t find a decent schematic anywhere.  The rectifier is a piece of cake, but the regulator seems to be some holy grail recipe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
--Kenzo
** 71 CB500, 74 CB550, 76 CB400F, 77 CJ360t **

Offline Alan F.

  • We remember the Night Rider, and we know who you are.
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,340

Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,955
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: DIY REGULATOR- For the Electronics Gurus out there
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2021, 04:36:25 PM »
Somewhere i have a circuit diagram for an electronic reg IF ( and its a pretty big if) i can fid it i will post it
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Deltarider

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,115
  • ... but some animals are more equal than others.
Re: DIY REGULATOR- For the Electronics Gurus out there
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2021, 05:25:39 AM »
Users of a 3-phase Schottky Bridge Rectifier may chime in and present the results of their long-term test to complete this thread.
CB500K2-ED Excel black
"There is enough for everyone's need but not enough for anybody's greed."

Offline Kenzo1979

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 544
Re: DIY REGULATOR- For the Electronics Gurus out there
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2021, 07:12:09 AM »
Somewhere i have a circuit diagram for an electronic reg IF ( and its a pretty big if) i can fid it i will post it
Hope you find it.  Very curious.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
--Kenzo
** 71 CB500, 74 CB550, 76 CB400F, 77 CJ360t **

Offline Kenzo1979

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 544
Re: DIY REGULATOR- For the Electronics Gurus out there
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2021, 07:26:10 AM »
Users of a 3-phase Schottky Bridge Rectifier may chime in and present the results of their long-term test to complete this thread.
So currently I use something similar to the attached pic for my rectifier. 




Are you saying that if I went with a more modern regulator circuit, that it should be used in conjunction with a schottkey diode rectifier instead?  I found this quote on an electronics forum…

“In a linear regulator the few tenths of a volt reduction in forward voltage achieved by using Schottky diodes is normally not a significant factor in efficiency since you are dropping much more voltage than that across the linear regulator control element. It's only a factor if you want to use a low-voltage dropout linear regulator with output voltage operated as close as possible to the raw DC supply voltage.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
--Kenzo
** 71 CB500, 74 CB550, 76 CB400F, 77 CJ360t **

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,535
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: DIY REGULATOR- For the Electronics Gurus out there
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2021, 07:44:16 AM »
Upgrade of CB750 Rectifier.
I have not built mine. Need stock connector when I plan to have stock rectifier in place  just for sure. Swap connectors if failing.
Good thing with this one is charging from lower rpm thanks to less losses. Stock regulator is used.

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums%2Esohc4%2Enet%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D183347%2E0&share_tid=183347&share_fid=13548&share_type=t&link_source=app
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Kenzo1979

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 544
Re: DIY REGULATOR- For the Electronics Gurus out there
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2021, 08:28:50 AM »
For the record, I have no charging issues, I’m just a tinkerer who loves electronics projects.  I would just like to be able to build a regulator for this system, just to say I did it and be able to use for testing or put in a project bike.

My daily riders, my 74 550 and 71 500, are outfitted the same way and are extremely reliable.  LED turn signals and tail/brake light, Bosch Hella kit H4 35/35 headlight, AGM 12V 12AH battery, brand new tec points plate and points with a Hondaman ignition (1 has a Velleman kit transistorized ignition), starter button and high/low beam relayed out, new 3 phase rectifier like the one in the picture of my previous post, stock regulator, automotive blade fuse panel, All my wiring is soldered and crimped connectors - no hack splices, packed with dielectric grease, added charge indicator so I can see if there’s any charging issues.  It’s a great system, I love it.


Speaking of the charging indicator, how does everyone not have one of these on their bikes at this point?  It’s basically like having a DC voltmeter permanently connected to your bike. As soon as I turn the key I can tell if there’s a problem or not. And they’re so cheap and easy to install, I just think it’s ridiculous to not have one.


Anyway, in closing I would just love to be able to build my own regulator rectifier like the ones that are sold online.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
--Kenzo
** 71 CB500, 74 CB550, 76 CB400F, 77 CJ360t **

Offline Deltarider

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,115
  • ... but some animals are more equal than others.
Re: DIY REGULATOR- For the Electronics Gurus out there
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2021, 09:13:39 AM »
Speaking of the charging indicator, how does everyone not have one of these on their bikes at this point?  It’s basically like having a DC voltmeter permanently connected to your bike. As soon as I turn the key I can tell if there’s a problem or not. And they’re so cheap and easy to install, I just think it’s ridiculous to not have one.
No, it is not. Ridiculous IMO is to:
1. buy stuff you don't need
2. undertake unneeded work when your lifespan is limited.
Here a check method that is cheap, can't break down and does not imply labor.
1. Verify you have two hands. If even one is missing, consider to abstain from riding.
2. Start engine.
3. Bring on headlamp.
4. Bring left hand in front of head lamp.
5. Rev to 4000 rpm and check brightness increases.
Done.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2021, 12:21:29 AM by Deltarider »
CB500K2-ED Excel black
"There is enough for everyone's need but not enough for anybody's greed."

Offline Kenzo1979

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 544
Re: DIY REGULATOR- For the Electronics Gurus out there
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2021, 09:15:18 AM »
Apologies, wasn’t trying to call anyone ridiculous.  I just feel like it’s a useful, inexpensive product.  And I can see it charging while I ride.  To each their own.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
--Kenzo
** 71 CB500, 74 CB550, 76 CB400F, 77 CJ360t **

Offline RAFster122s

  • I feel like a really really
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,298
  • SOHC4 member # 2605
Re: DIY REGULATOR- For the Electronics Gurus out there
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2021, 10:34:17 AM »
Kenzo, don't mind the rantings of Delta...he's akin to a taste many haven't acquired.
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline Kenzo1979

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 544
DIY REGULATOR- For the Electronics Gurus out there
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2021, 11:25:57 AM »
Kenzo, don't mind the rantings of Delta...he's akin to a taste many haven't acquired.
Thanks.  I’ll try not to lose sleep over it tonight.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: November 03, 2021, 11:29:34 AM by Kenzo1979 »
--Kenzo
** 71 CB500, 74 CB550, 76 CB400F, 77 CJ360t **

Offline Deltarider

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,115
  • ... but some animals are more equal than others.
Re: DIY REGULATOR- For the Electronics Gurus out there
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2021, 02:15:08 PM »
Kenzo, don't mind the rantings of Delta...he's akin to a taste many haven't acquired.
I seriously ment to give good advice, Rafster. Please realise I have 41 years of experience in NOT failing charging systems. They are dead reliable and so is my method of checking. Maybe you think installing some cheap Chinese digital thingie on a vintage bike of the 70s, is good taste. Well, that's then a taste I haven't acquired. And as far as ranting... have a look in the mirror.
CB500K2-ED Excel black
"There is enough for everyone's need but not enough for anybody's greed."

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 16,996
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: DIY REGULATOR- For the Electronics Gurus out there
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2021, 02:53:46 PM »
ive used a bosch re57 reg with a recitifier from a permanant magnet type combo unit,the reg section of it isnt used,this is cheap and bullet proof being over 10 years old,stable voltage, also run a vdo volt meter.

Offline Kenzo1979

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 544
Re: DIY REGULATOR- For the Electronics Gurus out there
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2021, 04:07:47 PM »
Dave, that’s cool.  Came across your post from 2017 about it on my search.  Seem to be easy to find in your neck of the woods, not so much in the US - also, they ain’t that cheap;  about $80 give or take, plus shipping.  Good info though; now I know anything that is a suitable substitute for an RE-57 is also a possibility.  Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
--Kenzo
** 71 CB500, 74 CB550, 76 CB400F, 77 CJ360t **

Offline Kenzo1979

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 544
Re: DIY REGULATOR- For the Electronics Gurus out there
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2021, 04:27:04 PM »
I actually purchased this unit from Amazon some months ago just for #$%*s and gigs.  I figured even if it’s a cheap POS, which would basically just come down to having cheap components inside, perhaps I could copy it using high quality components and make something decent.  I mean for $13 most people are probably afraid of this thing,  but that Ford IASF mod that’s been floating around for the past 10-15 years is also based on a $15 part, so who knows.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
--Kenzo
** 71 CB500, 74 CB550, 76 CB400F, 77 CJ360t **

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 16,996
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: DIY REGULATOR- For the Electronics Gurus out there
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2021, 05:29:40 PM »
on my 87 tt600 i replaced the single diode rectifier and dead tin box electronic reg with a cheap online combined unit for about 8 bucks!works great,in place of re57 the re55 can be used,the 57 has three pins one being earth,the 55 only two pins and earths via its body.

Offline jonda500

  • I may be crazy but I'm not stupid!
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,795
  • With our thoughts we make the world (Monkey Magic)
Re: DIY REGULATOR- For the Electronics Gurus out there
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2021, 08:11:21 PM »
Here a check method that is cheap, can't break down and does not imply labor.
1. Verify you have two hands. If even one is missing, abstain from riding.
2. Start engine.
3. Bring on headlamp.
4. Bring left hand in front of head lamp.
5. Rev to 4000 rpm and check brightness increases.
Done.
   I also don't particularly want to change the attractive original look of my bike by fitting a volt meter - I simply observe the neutral light brightening when giving the engine a rev after starting - this method works even if you only have one hand!
   I met a CB550 rider during a local vintage bike club ride who has only one arm! He has moved the clutch lever to the right side or the handlebars next to and above the brake lever and seems to ride very competently, maintaining full control of his motorcycle at all times. It is rather disconcerting riding behind him as he lets the left arm of his jacket wildly flail around behind him!
   In the late eighties I knew of a bloke who continued to race motorcycles after losing an arm!
John
Remember that an ignoramus is only someone who doesn't know something you just learned yesterday!

A starter clutch thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,122084.0.html
1972 CB500K1 original 4 owner bike
1972 CB500K1 returned to complete/original condition
1975 CB550F built from parts - project thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,149161.msg1711626.html#msg1711626
197? CB500/550 constructing from left over parts
1998 KTM 380 (two stroke) recent impulse buy, mmmm...

Offline Deltarider

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,115
  • ... but some animals are more equal than others.
Re: DIY REGULATOR- For the Electronics Gurus out there
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2021, 12:02:18 AM »
That's the spirit! It made me change post #12.
For more chivalry, watch: "Tis but a scratch."
« Last Edit: November 05, 2021, 12:25:30 AM by Deltarider »
CB500K2-ED Excel black
"There is enough for everyone's need but not enough for anybody's greed."