Topic: New rubber brake hoses for 650?

[Jimcg]

Does anyone know if someone sells complete kits with new rubber brake hoses (or should I say brake lines?) for a '82 CB650Z? I have found kits with braided steel lines but I would prefer new rubber ones.

/Jim

[bryanj]

I think you will have to go genuine Honda for those, most peole use the stanless

[fizzlebottom]

Why are you looking to use rubber over SS?

[RAFster122s]

You can get rubber covered stainless that look a lot like stock lines

[BenelliSEI]

Contact RAYMOND at Apex Brakes. He will make up hoses in whatever style you want and deliver fast. I usually lay out the stock lines on a piece of cardboard, and clearly mark the lengths with a fat, black marker on the cardboard. Using the photo, he can identify the style/angle of ends and replicate. Will cost you less than stock and last forever.

[Stev-o]

Contact RAYMOND at Apex Brakes. He will make up hoses in whatever style you want and deliver fast.

Not sure how fast shipping to Sweden will be?!

http://www.apexbrakes.com/custom.asp

[Jimcg]

Thanks for your answers!

I think you will have to go genuine Honda for those, most peole use the stanless

I wouldn't mind that, for such an important part I'd prefer Honda parts but I didn't think those were available through Honda. I'll give my local Honda dealer a call. 

Why are you looking to use rubber over SS?

I got the impression after reading here that SS lines would be somewhat less forgiving. I'm not an experienced rider and I don't ride fast so I figured anything that increases the risk for me locking the front brake is a bad thing. But I want to replace them since they are 40 years old, just for safety.

You can get rubber covered stainless that look a lot like stock lines

That is my plan if I can't find new rubber ones.

Contact RAYMOND at Apex Brakes. He will make up hoses in whatever style you want and deliver fast. I usually lay out the stock lines on a piece of cardboard, and clearly mark the lengths with a fat, black marker on the cardboard. Using the photo, he can identify the style/angle of ends and replicate. Will cost you less than stock and last forever.

Many thanks, I will contact them if I can't find Honda ones at home. A concern for me would be making sure the end fittings are the correct ones, threads and angles and such. But maybe they now that stuff. I would use your method with photos and markings. Good info!

Not sure how fast shipping to Sweden will be?!

http://www.apexbrakes.com/custom.asp

I'm in no hurry, it's winter here now. Either snow, salt or both on the roads here now...

/Jim

[RAFster122s]

Braided stainless steel teflon lines are going to be a better solution than stock rubber lines...whether the replacement are rubber coated or not is up to you.

You should replace your brake hoses every 4-6 years.

[Deltarider]

  My bike still has the original lines, it received at the assembly line in 1976. So far I cannot detect any wear. Bike only sees UV light when on the road. Has any of you ever sliced open an OEM line? What does it look like? I can understand Jim's concern. Stock lines will perform the way you were used to. These brakes were far from perfect, but you could brake like a fool. In all those years I have never been in danger because of a too long stopping distance, whereas panic stops... there have been quite a few. Ride defensively.

[BenelliSEI]

My bike still has the original lines, it received at the assembly line in 1976. So far I cannot detect any wear. Bike only sees UV light when on the road. Has any of you ever sliced open an OEM line? What does it look like? I can understand Jim's concern. Stock lines will perform the way you were used to. These brakes were far from perfect, but you could brake like a fool. In all those years I have never been in danger because of a too long stopping distance, whereas panic stops... there have been quite a few. Ride defensively.

I also have a couple of bikes with original hoses, and they look to be fine. A few years ago my 1974 K4 had a dragging front brake. It actually locked on so hard, I could no longer push the bike. Checked all the usual stuff and the caliper, swivel bracket, and master cylinder were fine. Turned out the hoses had completely collapsed internally to the point they were acting as a check valve. The master cylinder was strong enough to push fluid through the mushy lines, but it took hours for the pressure to back off. When I cut them open they looked like solid lines. After 50 years, tires and hoses need replacement.

[Flyin900]

I find with old rubber brake lines that they are disintegrating internally from age. With old lines the fluid changes to a darker colour after one or two seasons, where on new lines it is still very clear. So my thoughts are the old lines are breaking down internally and micro bits of rubber are responsible for the colour change.

[bryanj]

Your local dealer may not have the old parts fiches, go to cmsnl.com and find your exact model then look up part numbers yourself

[fizzlebottom]

I replaced my original rubber hoses several years ago after I could not get enough pressure on the lever to do much stopping at all. I'd replaced pads, rebuilt calipers with brand new pistons, rebuilt and then replaced the entire master cylinder. And after all of that, same result. Finally replaced the hoses with SS units I had a local guy make from his hydraulics shop. Fixed instantly.

Nothing looked off with the old rubber. But what happens is they start to bulge under fluid pressure, and sometimes to a degree that you can't visually detect it. There's a reason they're meant to be replaced every 6-10 years (or 4-6, depending on manufacturer). We replace rubber just about everywhere else on the bike. Why would brake hose rubber be any different?

[Jimcg]

I agree that they should be replaced and that's what I'm going to do. Talked to a guy who was selling his bike after having an minor accident where an old brake line had collapsed and locked the front wheel in city traffic. He felt he couldn't feel comfortable on the bike after that and the fun of riding was gone for him.

My goal with this thread was to see if there was an easy way of placing an order somewhere knowing I get the correct new rubber lines for my bike.

The '82 CB650Z can't be found at CMSNL. I'm going to look closer and compare my bike with the pictures of the '79 CB650Z in their listing and send them some questions. All their "part numbers replaced by..." gets very confusing to me.

Will also talk to local Honda dealer.

/Jim

[bryanj]

Parts replaced by means Honda superceeded thepart number to a newer one that may be slightly different but work. Is your 82 and earlier oldstock model? What does it say on the vin plate as i thought all 82were dohc

[RAFster122s]

Pretty sure you will be dealing with a European model of the 650. Saw a std frame 650 that was not a '79 like we saw in the US and Canada. For us the cruiser style frame was used for 80-82 models.
Personally I am of the mindset your brake hoses will be dependent upon the frame more than model year as I recall all 650s used the same calipers after they went to Comstars...
CMSNL should have illustrated parts breakdown for the 650.

To get aftermarket hoses with SS braided construction your hose length and the clocking of the hose end is what is important. If you were to put a radial or other MC on the bike for improved braking then you could need to change the clocking.
I changed the MC design on one of my bikes and instead of the hose mounting at the end of the MC it attached to the front. This turned the orientation of the attachment 90 degrees from original position. So, I had to order a line with that added 90 degree turn in the hose end clocking. It also required a different bend so the hose contoured to the splitter junction at the bottom of the front triple trees. It just took a bit of looking at the options and the changes to be able to communicate those changes.

Don't be afraid of changing the braking system to improve it, like any change or new bike you take it easy and you retrain yourself to the bike's performance and braking system. When I first got my Vstrom 650 I had to train myself on the bike's throttle and braking to transition to it. Now two years later I am comfortable with it, it didn't take two years... but modern brakes can be scary effective when you are used to vintage bikes and their inferior brakes. Braking hard enough to activate the ABS still makes me pucker a bit and fear what's behind me... But, when traffic comes to a sudden unexpected stop or someone cuts you off or pulls out in front of you...then you have to stop or avoid an accident.

[RAFster122s]

I looked at the brake hose shown on the cb650z 79 US model... I don't think it is the same. Clocking in the illustration shows connection at brake splitter in same plane as the MC attachment. That would have the hose attaching at the end of the MC. Yours appears to attach to the front.
Would you agree?

[KB02]

Why are you looking to use rubber over SS?

I got the impression after reading here that SS lines would be somewhat less forgiving. I'm not an experienced rider and I don't ride fast so I figured anything that increases the risk for me locking the front brake is a bad thing. But I want to replace them since they are 40 years old, just for safety.

A.) I applaud the decision to replace 40 year old brake hoses. Good call.
B.) To respond to the New-Rider-Locking-the-Brakes thing: As an MSF RiderCoach, I can tell you that you that the best way to avoid locking brakes is to learn to use them properly. It is a common misconception that all motorcycles have great brakes or that you're going to launch yourself over the handlebars using them. Practicing brake use is one of the most important skills that a new rider can do. Never Grab the brakes, but apply a progressive squeeze. Let the weight of the bike load up on that front tire as you increase your squeeze so that you're increasing the grip as you apply more stopping force. Practice, practice, practice.

Now, I'll take off my RiderCoach hat and put on my mechanic's one: Rubber hoses expand as more pressure gets applied to the braking system - the end result is that you end up applying more squeeze at the lever in a full stop than you need to (or should). Especially as a new rider, I would recommend the SS lines as they will give you better feel for the braking effort and will not encourage such a ham-fisted approach to braking - which will serve you well later in life when you get a newer machine with better brakes. The early muscle memory that we develop stays with us in life and can form habits that are hard to break. Not to mention that these old SOHC were never really known for having great brakes, so anything simple you can do to improve their ability, would be a good thing.

[Steps off soap box. Quietly walks away.]

[Jimcg]

Parts replaced by means Honda superceeded thepart number to a newer one that may be slightly different but work. Is your 82 and earlier oldstock model? What does it say on the vin plate as i thought all 82were dohc

No, 1982 was the last year for CB650 SOHC.

Pretty sure you will be dealing with a European model of the 650. Saw a std frame 650 that was not a '79 like we saw in the US and Canada. For us the cruiser style frame was used for 80-82 models.
Personally I am of the mindset your brake hoses will be dependent upon the frame more than model year as I recall all 650s used the same calipers after they went to Comstars...
CMSNL should have illustrated parts breakdown for the 650.

To get aftermarket hoses with SS braided construction your hose length and the clocking of the hose end is what is important. If you were to put a radial or other MC on the bike for improved braking then you could need to change the clocking.
I changed the MC design on one of my bikes and instead of the hose mounting at the end of the MC it attached to the front. This turned the orientation of the attachment 90 degrees from original position. So, I had to order a line with that added 90 degree turn in the hose end clocking. It also required a different bend so the hose contoured to the splitter junction at the bottom of the front triple trees. It just took a bit of looking at the options and the changes to be able to communicate those changes.

Don't be afraid of changing the braking system to improve it, like any change or new bike you take it easy and you retrain yourself to the bike's performance and braking system...

Yes, it's a European model. As far as I understand they were available in Europe during all four years of the SOHC 650 production. I'll look closer and compare my bike to the '79 650Z pictures at CMSNL. I'm sure you are right about the frame and comstars.
I appreciate your thoughts about getting used to a new feel and way of applying the front brake if I decide to buy SS lines - I'll keep that in mind. As for now I don't have any plans of replacing the master cylinder.

A.) I applaud the decision to replace 40 year old brake hoses. Good call.
B.) To respond to the New-Rider-Locking-the-Brakes thing: As an MSF RiderCoach, I can tell you that you that the best way to avoid locking brakes is to learn to use them properly. It is a common misconception that all motorcycles have great brakes or that you're going to launch yourself over the handlebars using them. Practicing brake use is one of the most important skills that a new rider can do. Never Grab the brakes, but apply a progressive squeeze. Let the weight of the bike load up on that front tire as you increase your squeeze so that you're increasing the grip as you apply more stopping force. Practice, practice, practice.

Now, I'll take off my RiderCoach hat and put on my mechanic's one: Rubber hoses expand as more pressure gets applied to the braking system - the end result is that you end up applying more squeeze at the lever in a full stop than you need to (or should). Especially as a new rider, I would recommend the SS lines as they will give you better feel for the braking effort and will not encourage such a ham-fisted approach to braking - which will serve you well later in life when you get a newer machine with better brakes. The early muscle memory that we develop stays with us in life and can form habits that are hard to break. Not to mention that these old SOHC were never really known for having great brakes, so anything simple you can do to improve their ability, would be a good thing.

[Steps off soap box. Quietly walks away.]

Thanks for helpful advice! Whenever I brake I use them as recommended - by squeezing and feeling how the bike reacts. What concerns me is what would happen in an emergency when my brain isn't involved fast enough to tell the hand what to do.

I get your point about SS lines forcing the rider to have a more sensible way of braking, although I'm not concerned about forming habits that would be a problem on a newer bike, since I'm not interested in newer vehicles. Mike '82 bike is the newer of my hobby vehicles. I also drive a '55 Chevy. =)

I looked at the brake hose shown on the cb650z 79 US model... I don't think it is the same. Clocking in the illustration shows connection at brake splitter in same plane as the MC attachment. That would have the hose attaching at the end of the MC. Yours appears to attach to the front.
Would you agree?

Here are two pictures of the brake setup on my bike. I'll compare them to CMSNL pictures.

20211123_073500 by Jim Gahnfelt, on Flickr

20211123_073328 by Jim Gahnfelt, on Flickr

This is one of the threads that made me think I would be better off using new rubber lines instead of SS lines. I took extra notice to the comments from Terry, Pewe and grcamna2 here:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=136811.0

/Jim

[Deltarider]

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=136811.0

/Jim

It's because some in that thread (and also in other) recommend EBC brake pads, that I take the opportunity to share my experience. I found them rather primitive. They sqealed like hell and I haven't used them for long. They also wore unevenly to a degree I'm not used to. The difference in width (FA13 set), front and rear is 1,3mm. Don't know what to think of that, but I have returned to OEM.

[jonda500]

I mostly only use genuine honda parts but with the ridiculously high price for genuine ones, I opted to take my brake hoses to a local automotive brake & clutch store and had them fabricate replicas - they look almost identical to my originals, cost less and were ready later on the same day.
John
nb the outer rubber layer of my originals was starting to crack, but I was driven to replace them when like benelli one of my hoses developed a blockage that acted like a one way valve - I fixed it by ramming a thick wire rod through it, but sensibly thought better of continuing to use cracked brake hoses!

[Jimcg]

It's because some in that thread (and also in other) recommend EBC brake pads, that I take the opportunity to share my experience. I found them rather primitive. They sqealed like hell and I haven't used them for long. They also wore unevenly to a degree I'm not used to. The difference in width (FA13 set), front and rear is 1,3mm. Don't know what to think of that, but I have returned to OEM.

Thanks for sharing! I installed new pads from David Silver (don't remember the brand) and they are completely silent.

I mostly only use genuine honda parts but with the ridiculously high price for genuine ones, I opted to take my brake hoses to a local automotive brake & clutch store and had them fabricate replicas - they look almost identical to my originals, cost less and were ready later on the same day.

Thanks, might be a solution if I don't find new rubber ones and still want them.

/Jim

[grcamna2]

subscribed 

[Jimcg]

subscribed 

Noticed your subscription and thought I  wanted to update. After a while I just got lazy and ordered a set of braided steel lines from Wezmoto.

A couple of things made me choose that. First, good advice from KB02 and others in this thread and other places here. Second, I realized this isn't a big thing to replace (I tend to overthink almost everything I do) so either way I go it won't be a big deal to undo. That lead me to the third part, it was very convenient to order a model specific kit, knowing that it will fit.

I was actually going to replace them later today. Covered much of the bike yesterday in case I spill brake fluid, so everything is prepared. I'll update once it's done.

/Jim

[Jimcg]

Hmm, I'm feeling a bit insecure when I compare the banjo bolts in the Wezmoto kit to the original ones (the bag was labeled for my bike model - 1982 CB650Z). The threaded part is noticeable shorter. But is it a problem? My impression is that the company has been doing this for a long time and wouldn't send items regarding brakes if they will make the bike less secure but then again, wherever humans are involved mistakes can be made.

Should I use the ones in the kit or the original bolts with new copper washers or wait (waiting is always the boring option) and contact Wezmoto next week and show them the pictures. This is how the old and new ones look. There is probably one more mm of threads on the new bolts when squeezing the washers together, but still a noticeable difference.

What do you think?

20220115_184617 by Jim Gahnfelt, on Flickr

20220115_184354 by Jim Gahnfelt, on Flickr

/Jim