Author Topic: Making decisions with two SOHCs for one build  (Read 1158 times)

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Offline cosmicvision

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Making decisions with two SOHCs for one build
« on: November 20, 2021, 11:52:52 AM »
Rider of beloved k0 550 here - had it for nearly 10 years, it was the particular bike I set out to find. It will sit for a season or two, I'll get the jones to ride it, patch it up and roll it for another season or two. With nearly 40k mi now, she's a little tired out. I drove 8hrs to Chicago yesterday to pick up a cb650, sans carburetors, in great shape for the right price. The reason I got it was the reading I've done on here about using the superior 650 head on the 550 motor. I'm referencing Paulage's amazing thread for 550/650 hybrid motor: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,40414.msg416213.html#msg416213

I'm seeking council for what would be the best combination for the parts that I have:

-a complete and stock '74 550 that I want to build on
-a complete '79 650 (in much nicer shape) -- clubmans, MAC 4 into 2, etc -- missing the carbs

Have I correctly gathered that I could run the following:

650 head + tach
550 barrels & pistons (rering? rebore? 590 pistons?)
650 crank
all in the 550 case so I can keep the kicker

More than the big displacement of 750 pistons, I'm interested in what I've seen from Hondaman about increased max RPM in these motors. I would like to build a high-revving smaller displacement setup using what original parts I can of these two bikes. A couple of questions:

-will the k0 550 carbs I have serve this setup well?
-is fitting the 650 clutch assembly to the 550 motor possible? (I saw the bit about less slippage and easier on the wrists than the HD clutch springs in my 550 which is appealing to me) -- I can't move my left hand after a ride sometimes)

If not it seems that I will have to choose between the 650 clutch or 550 kick start -- that's tough

Forgive any implicit ignorance, or if I've missed anything already mentioned-- I hope starting this thread will be helpful for anyone looking at a similar build -- it seems like I'm not the only one!

edit:sp
« Last Edit: November 20, 2021, 09:01:37 PM by cosmicvision »
-Joshua
1974 cb550 - back of the garage for now
1979 cb650 - daily rider, mac 4-2, clubman, murray's carbs, guiliari type seat

Offline bryanj

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Re: Making decisions with two SOHCs for one build
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2021, 11:59:17 AM »
There was an Australian member on here called Ted Hayes who raced a sidecar with 550 cases 650 crank and not sure about rest of mix
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Offline cosmicvision

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Re: Making decisions with two SOHCs for one build
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2021, 12:20:19 PM »
Looks to be thoroughly put to the test and confirmed to be awesome -- it seems more are interested in 750-like torque and displacement, I just want to slam that tach needle into the red

edit: sp
-Joshua
1974 cb550 - back of the garage for now
1979 cb650 - daily rider, mac 4-2, clubman, murray's carbs, guiliari type seat

Offline Don R

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Re: Making decisions with two SOHCs for one build
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2021, 02:00:40 PM »
 I read the 750A 26mm carbs are a good carb for 550 builds, have you ever heard of that?
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Offline newday777

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Re: Making decisions with two SOHCs for one build
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2021, 02:20:03 PM »
I know a old racer/motor builder of more race bikes out in California that loves the 550/650 hybrid motors. His name is Kurt Jordan of Jordan Engineering in Oceanside. Give him a call on Tuesday.
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
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Offline cosmicvision

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Re: Making decisions with two SOHCs for one build
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2021, 02:43:38 PM »
I read the 750A 26mm carbs are a good carb for 550 builds, have you ever heard of that?

I have, I see that PD carbs will work but there was warning of a lot of monkey fking around -- I've also seen some fuel injected setups, dual carb setups -- I'm curious what is the most practical solution people have found for fueling these hybrid builds?
-Joshua
1974 cb550 - back of the garage for now
1979 cb650 - daily rider, mac 4-2, clubman, murray's carbs, guiliari type seat

Offline cosmicvision

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Re: Making decisions with two SOHCs for one build
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2021, 02:44:19 PM »
I know a old racer/motor builder of more race bikes out in California that loves the 550/650 hybrid motors. His name is Kurt Jordan of Jordan Engineering in Oceanside. Give him a call on Tuesday.

Nice, thanks for the heads up. I certainly will do.
-Joshua
1974 cb550 - back of the garage for now
1979 cb650 - daily rider, mac 4-2, clubman, murray's carbs, guiliari type seat

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Making decisions with two SOHCs for one build
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2021, 06:26:45 PM »
Just drop the 650 motor in the 550 frame. You lose the kickstart but you get a good turnkey solution. Hopefully you have the early cb650, late 650 had cv carbs.you can put a set pf 750 carbs on early motor.

But, this presumes you have a good stock ignition for the 650, dyna ignition plate has been modified for the 650, member here can do the mod.

I think an autocorrect changed Paulages name...
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline cosmicvision

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Re: Making decisions with two SOHCs for one build
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2021, 09:18:41 PM »
I've considered just dropping the whole 650 mill in there, it shows under 10k miles, probably would be a blast. But I won't mind a wrenching project this winter; been wanting to build a motor since youth. Plus the idea of the hybrid build is just wicked to me. Honestly, if I was really smart I would just slap the 550 carbs on this nice condition, mildly cafe'd out 650 and go have fun. But the 74 and I go way back and it deserves to see the road again. I don't love the Comstars compared to spokes but they're growing on me. I've read that 550 carbs will bolt up to the OHC 650 -- any accounts of tuning headaches, etc?

I don't have auto correct lol I'm just incorrect
« Last Edit: November 23, 2021, 07:36:13 PM by cosmicvision »
-Joshua
1974 cb550 - back of the garage for now
1979 cb650 - daily rider, mac 4-2, clubman, murray's carbs, guiliari type seat

Offline cosmicvision

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Re: Making decisions with two SOHCs for one build
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2021, 01:45:55 PM »
Well I took the plunge today & dove in taking the carbs off the 550. Easier than I was braced for. Looks like they will mount up no problem, and I read a thread somewhere confirming they'll work fine and that maybe the 550 carbs can deliver more fueling than the 550 motor asks for.

Got two questions today -- one, is it reasonable to think I could take the carbs directly off a 550 (they never gave me any problems and I tried to keep them clean & dry in the off season) and put them directly on a 650 and expect the motor to run? I figure for Stoich at all speeds there will be some adjustment, jets, etc, but I just want to hear this engine run and maybe even take it around the block to see how everything feels.

And also -- anything beyond dropping the bowls & a rinse w carb cleaner that I could do while I have them on the bench? Thank you for your time.
-Joshua
1974 cb550 - back of the garage for now
1979 cb650 - daily rider, mac 4-2, clubman, murray's carbs, guiliari type seat

Offline Stev-o

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Re: Making decisions with two SOHCs for one build
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2021, 09:43:02 AM »
is it reasonable to think I could take the carbs directly off a 550 (they never gave me any problems and I tried to keep them clean & dry in the off season) and put them directly on a 650 and expect the motor to run?

Probably not.  You havent given much info on the 650 but have you checked it has a good battery and spark?  Timing and valve adjustments may be needed, or did he tell you it "ran when parked"?!
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline cosmicvision

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Re: Making decisions with two SOHCs for one build
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2021, 11:17:46 AM »
have you checked it has a good battery and spark?

I figured I would spare yall the details assumed to getting the motor to start. I asked few questions after driving 500 miles to Chicago for a $400 titled sohc 650 that I could eat dinner off of. Odometer shows 6762, I wasn't too worried about it and took my chances. Tank doesn't have a single dent, I figured getting my money back would be easy, worst case ontario.

He hooked it up to a charger to show me that the motor wasn't stuck; it eagerly whizzed over sounding perfectly healthy. Pretty sure what happened is someone modded this thing out a little bit, polished it with a toothbrush all ready to rip the roads, removed the carbs for a rebuild, and they never made it back to the bike. The story he gave me is that he got it as is in a work trade, had nothing in it, and just wanted to get out from under it for not a penny less than his asking price. He never even registered it to himself. Didn't strike me as a sketchy guy at all, he wants to hear a follow-up for how the bike turns out so he can post it on his blog.

In my own recent trial, I installed the 550 carbs, fashioned a non-fitting moto battery to it and gave it a hit. The 550 cock on the tank has two lines, going to each respective pair of carbs. 650 tank only has one line from it so I cobbled a T fitting in there with 1/4" fuel hose. Plugs were sparking nicely, wet with fuel, but no signs of boom boom. I ran the battery down and called it a night. Much confuse .....
-Joshua
1974 cb550 - back of the garage for now
1979 cb650 - daily rider, mac 4-2, clubman, murray's carbs, guiliari type seat

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Making decisions with two SOHCs for one build
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2021, 04:43:46 PM »
It will run with 550 Carbs.  But, the higher air volume suck will probably make the mixtures richer than nominal.  ...Unless you are using Pod style filters.  At any rate, running and running well will be a matter of jet adjustments.

Your last post seemed like spark was an issue.  So, verify you have spark properly timed.

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Offline cosmicvision

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Re: Making decisions with two SOHCs for one build
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2021, 09:59:14 PM »
Cheers TT, thanks for the reply. I will consult the factory shop manual for the timing procedure.

Stock intake, for the record. I was getting tidy blue sparks from plugs 1 & 4 when grounded to the head. Plugs are black & cruddy though, I will brush & regap next session.

Also it seems like the throttle cables are slightly too long to fit on the older carbs -- can anyone confirm? Maybe I will seek new 550 cables -- The ones on mine are awfully stiff.

Another question, apropos of nothing: If I were to end up swip-swapping some engine internals at some point, I wonder if the leftovers could be re-assembled. I do have two complete engines now. For conversation's sake if I did the 650 head on 550 engine -- Would 550 head on 650 motor be possible? Weird? Stupid and not worth pursuing? I've tried to search it every which way but google keeps thinking I mean '650 head on cb550' which apparently is a much more common search .. go figure.
-Joshua
1974 cb550 - back of the garage for now
1979 cb650 - daily rider, mac 4-2, clubman, murray's carbs, guiliari type seat

Offline cosmicvision

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Re: Making decisions with two SOHCs for one build
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2021, 11:13:28 AM »
Good afternoon super SOHCers - updating for conversation's sake. The advent of the holidays renders little wrench time but it never escapes the mind. The original plan for the deal I got on the 650 was "oh I'm just gonna part that thing out, keep what I want, and make some scratch on the side" ... But once I saw it in person I realized it's just too low-mile-condition to boneyard out like that. Ripping a 6xxx mile 650 apart to mod out a 550 with 39xxx miles, without diving into bushings, forks, et al, started to look a little foolish. Probably not the first one here for the direction of the build to shift -- so many awesome build threads on here to consider. Something about "small block racer" by user CB500Four, has 650 head, stock valves & springs, crammed under the 550 valve cover with some clever welding; 650 cylinders with 750 pistons; all on the 550 bottom end with the classic swept lines and retaining a sleeper stock look. User crazypj has ridden a 591 build for 70,000 miles that turns 13500rpm with electronic ignition, amongst other mods on his full build. Reported top speed is 125mph, and that one really gets my mind to cooking. Have yet to call Kurt at Jordan on the west coast, this is me reminding myself.

Appearance wise, my daydreams are the 550 spoke wheels & bottom end on 650 frame some day. Ditch the ugly aftermkt seat for a fiberglass rear. Will keep the 550 frame more original-ish, upright cruising style. Got a nice windshield & back rack for it somewhere. Perhaps the 650 bottom end, as per RAF's suggestion, along with leftover bits & bobs from 550 build, will power it eventually. Just discovered Murray's carbs, to my great interest. Still trying to figure out if 550 head on 650 motor is feasible, even if not the most powerful setup. Wife rides mint condition CL175 and we hope to do some bigger-bike-type touring some day. With lowered springs I think she could handle it no sweat.

But back on earth, the primary logical first step will be to get the 650 to run with 550 carbs, just to see what's going on in there. If it's not difficult to achieve a usable tune, I will look forward to rolling it as is for the season. Maybe I will love it and just leave it the hell alone. Seems like I can anticipate power levels nearing the 750, hoooo boy 8) 8) 8)

Thinking of selling the late 550k 4:4 pipes, if any interest. Could use the cash for now, maybe save the MAC 4:2 for that bike and go 4:1 for """cafe""" style 650. Posted a feeler ad for proper early style trade but not holding out for that.

Attached is a photo of the situation. What would you do ? ¿ ? ¿ ? ¿ ?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2021, 11:23:07 AM by cosmicvision »
-Joshua
1974 cb550 - back of the garage for now
1979 cb650 - daily rider, mac 4-2, clubman, murray's carbs, guiliari type seat

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Making decisions with two SOHCs for one build
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2021, 02:28:37 PM »
 I have built some of the 'big bore' 500 and 550 engines, one with the Megacycle Cam 126-00. That one ran past the ton with less than 200 miles on the clock after the full rebuild, haven't kept track of it since then, though. Stock air intake tract, too, nice and quiet. I did a little porting to the head and intake manifold on most of them, more on the one with the Megacycle cam. This particular cam will last far longer than the cheap Webcams, too.

The pipes: until you pass 11,000 RPM you won't find any difference with any version of the pipes that improve exhaust suction that will fit: the bike is far too short to supply any 'header effect' from pipe length tuning or 4-1 'votex' setups. For one solid example, search for "CB750 Dunstall 4-2 pipes" to see the one version of pipes (with muffling) that actually have header suction, and you'll see they stick out almost 8" past the rear wheel on a 750 - this would be almost 16" on the 550 frame(!).

Watch the chamber volume with the 650 head. It is very easy to end up with a too-large chamber with these small-bore pistons, so I'd suggest that any use of the 650 head shuld be accompanied by the 590cc bores, too. Be DEAD SURE to make the piston clearance LESS than 0.0010" (0.0006" nominal, that's not a typo) and find a machine shop who WILL DO IT, or else find another one. When I lived in IL (1970s) I found it difficult (almost impossible) to get them to do it MY WAY, which was also HONDA's WAY, to make these bikes work right. If the piston clearance gets past 0.0014" then it will both burn and pump oil, everywhere, and in huge amounts above 8000 RPM.

Mill the cylinder deck by 0.010"-0.015", regardless of bore size. This will match the mated pair over the too-thick head gaskets that are 100% of the parts you wil find now: they are all 0.2mm (0.0008" thicker than in the 1970s, which means they will leak oil from the oil jets on the sides of the cylinders at the head joint unless this is done. You can alternately use thicker O-rings (or do both) over those ports to stop leaks, which I'm outlining even now in my upcoming CB500/550 book.

The intake ports are choked. A lot. In the 650 head, a little less, but still a lot. For hi-RPM use you will need to open those up. Smooth out the exhaust side, too, to reduce carbon buildup and head heating on the exhaust side at hi revs. The valve reliefs in the pistons (intake side) should be deepened at least 0.5mm to help ensure the pistons and valves don't move into each other's real estate at speed. If you can find (or make) a slotted cam sprocket, this will let you delay the intake opening slightly (2-5 degrees, depending on what you can put up with as loss of low-end torque in favor of more HP up high) to also help reduce this valve-piston overt friendliness. ;)

The 550 carbs will work to about 10,000 RPM quite well, then they get uncontrollably rich (with pods) or lean (with OEM airbox setup). If you switch to 26mm carbs like from the CB750a, the pods will fight you every step of the way for tuning without blackened plugs, or having severe flat spots, so you will be faced with either trying to fit the pod filters into the frame (it is in the way), trying to create a way to use the 2-carb K&N style pods (with some sort of cover to block off the upper 2/3 of it) and fit those into the frame, or make your own: use a breather hole NO LOARGER than the opening in the venturi area at 80% throttle. There also needs to be more restriction on the 750-style carbs' intake side to generate an intermediate air pressure (lower than in the float bowls, higher than in the vebturi) to make them work, or they flat out will not work below 5000 RPM in the 550/650-size intake tract/valve due to low flow velocities. The intake valve size determines the carb size needed for peak power, so keep that in mind as you go. ;)

A hint abuot startup after radical builds: retard the spark timing (I use 0 degrees TDC) for initial startup until you can feel your way into getting it to start and idle well. Then you can advance a little more until that is happy: also increase spring tension to retard the too-fast (in 1974) spark advance on these gadgets. I cut off at least 1/2 turn from both springs as a starting point in these engines, and it always works out well in use. If you use the AD125 (CB750K0/1/2) knock-off (new) spark advancer from 4into1.com, it comes with real strong springs (at least the last 2 I bought did) that are too strong for the 750, but might be pretty close for a big-bore 550 build.
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