Topic: Turbo Charged CB550 Landspeed Attempt

[BomberMann650]

You don't tune an engine this way.

Right?!  What was i thinking!?

Let me grab my tape wrapped pod filter 🤪

[scottly]

Part of your issue is that you are running a suck-through carb, feeding into a cold turbo and then into a cold plenum on a cold start. You need to get things heated up a bit so the fuel vaporizes enough to let the motor run evenly.

[BomberMann650]

Warm starts are easier than cold starts this is true
- but
there's this thing about draw through setups where they can frost over their intake plenums.  Will be interesting to see what happens when i get this on a dyno.
It has been idling stable with the scotch choke plate - and i can track adjustments to the idle screw on the wideband.readout.  heck, every hole poked was reflected by the afr meter.  $250 well spent!
I should have the oil return line sorted by the time the new pilots arrive.  Once i can manage sustained operation without oil blow by, i'll be able to do more with the jetting.  I could probably manage a 47.5 pilot jet if i reduced the air jet.  But its really damn hard to read any stampings on that tiny little thing

Another thing i'll have to sort is the float needle versus fuel pump issue.  As the pump can easily overfill the bowl.  Holley didn't include much info with their pump, nor does it have an adjustment knob to tone it down.  I won't know if using the ignitions relay operations could automate fuel delivery until I try it under load.  Right now, its on a rocker switch next to the throttle.

[scottly]

In the video, the bike never ran long enough to warm up, much less freeze up the intake. Just when it started to idle, albeit at a relatively high RPM, you did something that slowed the RPM until it stalled? I couldn't understand what you were saying, but I'm guessing you were concerned with a lean AFR reading? Don't worry, you aren't going to burn a hole in a piston under those conditions. Where in the exhaust is the O2 sensor mounted? Is it a heated sensor?

[BomberMann650]

In the video, the bike never ran long enough to warm up, much less freeze up the intake. Just when it started to idle, albeit at a relatively high RPM, you did something that slowed the RPM until it stalled? I couldn't understand what you were saying, but I'm guessing you were concerned with a lean AFR reading? Don't worry, you aren't going to burn a hole in a piston under those conditions. Where in the exhaust is the O2 sensor mounted? Is it a heated sensor?

That clip is a tease.  And literally first attempts to run the engine.

I started cranking with the throttle full close and choke on.  I had been turning the idle rpm screw up until it came on.  It came on with a high idle, so i check to make sure throttle wasn't sticking open, then turned the idle rpm screw down.  At which point, it ran outta fuel.

Haven't shot any video of it idling with the big blue choker.  I don't want people to see the embarrassing amount of oil and smoke coming out of the turbo.  It doesn't take long for pressure to back up in the turbine core.  At least I know where i fcked up during the process.

[scottly]

That clip is a tease.

You did say it would get people talking!
Regarding the fuel pump, have you tried running the engine off a gravity fed slave tank? For what you are doing right now that should provide enough fuel.

[BomberMann650]

That clip is a tease.

You did say it would get people talking!
Regarding the fuel pump, have you tried running the engine off a gravity fed slave tank? For what you are doing right now that should provide enough fuel.

Yeah, its already rigged up to the service cell.
The holley pump allows fuel to pass through without power.

Wasn't exactly shocked to discover the pump can overflow the carb.  Now that i know it does, theres a need to get it under some control.
Looked through the dyna2000 manual today.  In order to use the rpm activated relay switching - i have to connect to a pc and their software.  Which means buying their link cable.  Fun.
It would be more cost effective to install another air pressure switch in the boost line to ground a relay for the pump.
Turning the thing on and off is not something i wanna think about while on the track.

[jgger]

Can you recirculate it bach to the tank?

[BomberMann650]

Can you recirculate it bach to the tank?

I don't know 🤔 - fuel would have to make a long uphill run.  Would probably just spill out the venturi before it made it.

Rigging up another hobbs switch is probably the simplest method to manage fuel pump power.  Certainly cheaper than buying dynateks usb link

[scottly]

Regarding the fuel pump, have you tried running the engine off a gravity fed slave tank? For what you are doing right now that should provide enough fuel.

Yeah, its already rigged up to the service cell.
The holley pump allows fuel to pass through without power.

Then why did it run out of gas when the pump wasn't running? Test it: with the pump outlet feeding into a container, see how much fuel flows over a given amount of time. Then measure how much fuel flows out of the hose from the tank after disconnecting it from the pump intake. You might also want to check the pressure out of the pump with your old fashioned automotive vacuum/fuel pressure gauge, meant for mechanical fuel pumps with 7 PSI.

[BomberMann650]

Regarding the fuel pump, have you tried running the engine off a gravity fed slave tank? For what you are doing right now that should provide enough fuel.

Yeah, its already rigged up to the service cell.
The holley pump allows fuel to pass through without power.

Then why did it run out of gas when the pump wasn't running?

Wasn't the pumps fault - service tank has its own shut off valve and the mechanic seems to have a short attention span.

Test it: with the pump outlet feeding into a container, see how much fuel flows over a given amount of time. Then measure how much fuel flows out of the hose from the tank after disconnecting it from the pump intake. You might also want to check the pressure out of the pump with your old fashioned automotive vacuum/fuel pressure gauge, meant for mechanical fuel pumps with 7 PSI.

Put a solo cup under the drain tube cause it can piss like a race horse.

Holley claims its a 2.5psi pump with a 25gph capability.

[scottly]

Is it really only 2.5 PSI? What part number is it? Why do you think you need a fuel pump in the first place?

[BomberMann650]

Is it really only 2.5 PSI? What part number is it? Why do you think you need a fuel pump in the first place?

Thats what Holley claims.
figured it was a decent investment - the bowl on the hsr40 isn't terrifically large, and i'd have to punch out the sides to add any volume with how tight it sits above the motor.

There's also that part where i'd love to just hold it WFO under 12psi boost for 27 seconds.  Eventually.  (After i've already backed up a run and can go for broke)

[scottly]

Is it really only 2.5 PSI? What part number is it? Why do you think you need a fuel pump in the first place?

Thats what Holley claims.
figured it was a decent investment - the bowl on the hsr40 isn't terrifically large, and i'd have to punch out the sides to add any volume with how tight it sits above the motor.

There's also that part where i'd love to just hold it WFO under 12psi boost for 27 seconds.  Eventually.  (After i've already backed up a run and can go for broke)

Is the pump in the pic the same as the one you actually have? There is an identical 7 PSI version.
The volume of the float bowl only determines how long the engine will run with the petcock turned off; my bike with the twin DCOE Webers, which have huge float bowls, can go for a 1/2 mile or so before it starts to sputter. BTW, the Webers are also sensitive to fuel pressure, and need to have a regulator set to no more than 2 1/2 PSI or so when used with a standard 7 PSI electric pump. My bike came with a Carter pump the size of a beer can and a separate 1-7 PSI regulator, as the PO seemed to think it was necessary. I dumped all the excess hardware and just gravity-fed the carbs from the tank and lived happily ever after, at least as far as the fuel pump.
Seriously, you shouldn't need a pump to keep up with the demand; the carb doesn't know if it's a 650cc engine with a turbo sucking on it or a 1200cc Harley. For now, please just run the fuel line straight from the tank to the carb, and leave the pump on the bench. You are over-thinking this.    
 

[BomberMann650]

Half a mile to drain webers?! 
Man this bikes gotta push hard for two miles just to get into the measured mile!
I'm not gonna fuss with it too much for now.  Waiting on more parts to arrive.

Also sad to announce i'll be removing the home made earles forks.  They've been problematic from the moment i set the front wheel down.
So I've been putting together a set of lowered xs750 special forks.  More junkyard racing parts

[scottly]

Half a mile to drain webers?! 
Man this bikes gotta push hard for two miles just to get into the measured mile!

With the petcock shut off ??!!!

[scottly]

So I've been putting together a set of lowered xs750 special forks.  More junkyard racing parts

Those forks mount the axle in front of the tubes, and require triples with a matched reduced off-set to get the geometry right. 

[BomberMann650]

So I've been putting together a set of lowered xs750 special forks.  More junkyard racing parts

Those forks mount the axle in front of the tubes, and require triples with a matched reduced off-set to get the geometry right.

Its good - already done a bunch of measurements for the custom earles.  These forks with lowering kit will put the axle right where i want it. 
The head angle on the bike was raked back as a byproduct of motor and swingarm fitment.  More than enough trail for the ride height.

[BomberMann650]

Had to cut the earles off the triple trees but got the 750sf forks on.

Gor the atatic sag where i wanted and took some measurements for the calculator

Should have a dynamic trail between 4.75 and 5.25.

[BomberMann650]

Welp...
There was an attempt.

Increased the size of the turbos oil drain back line to a 10AN.  Everything is so cram packed in this setup I may or may not have enough vertical drop.  But i verified it at least drains oil. 
Installed a functional inductive type tachometer with a DRO.

Did some tinkering with the idle jetting again.  I could smell it running rich and enough to make your eyes water. 
Have the dump pipe and afr meter disconnected right now cause there's still too much schmutz coming out of the turbo.
Wether thats residual or new oily mess I don't know.  I don't want to take the turbine housing off to clean it but might have to.
What i do know is its smokin like a choochoo train.
Or a lawnmower with a fcked head gasket.

Pulled the plugs to have a look.  Of course they're black.  Some were a tad oily.
Removed the pcv from the valve breather and realized that thing is barely flowing.  So thats no good, apparently.

Did tinker with the idle jetting.  Peeled off the scotch choker.  Let it sit at 1000rpm and used what was left of my sense of smell to gauge things.  The accellerator pump would sent a tuft of smoke out the side so i've backed that off for now.
Turned the idle screw in and things seemed to clear up some.  Hard to tell as the motor gets hot and continues to steam off.
Finally got the idea to just remove the idle air jet restrictor.  Which was enough that the choke circuit became necessary to restart the engine.

Tl:dr scottly was right.

Guess the afr meter was reading too much air on account of my ridiculously short set of pipes.

[BomberMann650]

More running in the motor. Idle is kinda high but thats where it won't bog out right now.

Fixed the oil flow issues with the turbo.  The 4an Line Restrictor and big an10 drain tube got it done.  Took some time to get hot and spit out what was in there.
Still waiting on smaller pilot jets to be delivered.  Runs bit smoky but at least now i know thats fuel.  May have to lower the needle clip too.
A little oil came out on the fins so a leakdown test will need done.  The compression tester read a  consistent number across all four the other day.  Todays run in with top end oil leak makes me wonder though.
The crankcase vent likes to blow its own whisp.  Hopefully the rings are bedding proper.  My end gaps are on the wide side even for a boosted application. 

[willbird]

That clip is a tease.

You did say it would get people talking!
Regarding the fuel pump, have you tried running the engine off a gravity fed slave tank? For what you are doing right now that should provide enough fuel.

Yeah, its already rigged up to the service cell.
The holley pump allows fuel to pass through without power.

Wasn't exactly shocked to discover the pump can overflow the carb.  Now that i know it does, theres a need to get it under some control.
Looked through the dyna2000 manual today.  In order to use the rpm activated relay switching - i have to connect to a pc and their software.  Which means buying their link cable.  Fun.
It would be more cost effective to install another air pressure switch in the boost line to ground a relay for the pump.
Turning the thing on and off is not something i wanna think about while on the track.

There is a guy who makes a pwm type no return pressure controller. Not sure how well the typical fuel injection type pressure sensor would work at lower pressures. With the proper sensor it should work though ? I bought one and soldered it up for a future project.

https://www.madhu.com/content/Main/FuelPumpController

[johno]

Dat oil aint from compression, likely an unsealed oil gallery between head & cylinder 

[Don R]

 I've had reservations about locating my O2 sensor after my turbo, The pipe is big and not too long, I'm concerned with reversion giving me lean readings. The fuel pressure controller is interesting, it might be better than a boost referenced regulator.
 A friend is well versed in drag racing LS turbo engines with the mega squirt efi and a process engineer. Another guy I know was a Holley rep for the efi used in racing NHRA and Nascar. They might be able to advise me on fueling my project.

[BomberMann650]

Dat oil aint from compression, likely an unsealed oil gallery between head & cylinder 

Update***

Yup, i found where it all got fckd up.
Got a copper gasket waiting in the parts bin.  Will be resurfacing the head in the spring.  Not too much.  I kinda like the 7:1 static compression

Theres also a methanol needle in the carb service tray, along with a smaller pump jet on my amazon wish list.

When i've got the chance will 3d print seals for the turbos cold side flanges.  The permatex is working, but a pain in the arse.  There are some cool filaments for 3d printers now which should put up with the vacuum+boost pressure and corrosives.