Topic: A place to respectfully discuss your feelings on vaccines and mandates thereof.

[algophobe]

speaking as a physician/surgeon without commercial bias and i consider myself a true moderate. vaccinate and boosted (first in line). currently my wife, and two young kids, and myself are covid positive, the symptoms are milder than the flu. the kids are 3 and 7, not vaccinated. The 7 y.o. i chose not to vaccinate, because the number for pediatrics don't make sense right now, i'll wait and see.

the COVID + numbers have gone up because we're dealing with a more infectious variant, also we're not hunkered down like in 2020, the freeways in california are busy like pre-pandemic, people are out and about. symptoms are milder because of the vaccine. it is currently truly a disease of the unvaccinated.

prime example, we had a 70 y.o. vaccinated patient with covid in icu, she's doing fine. getting transferred out to the lower level floors, two 30's y.o. unvaccinated patients in icu on ventilator, on dialysis, and developing pulmonary hypertension due to destruction of the lung tissue. they're not gonna make it.

at this point, i just say get vaccinated or don't it doesn't matter to me, eventually everyone will catch it. just don't make it difficult for everyone else.  you will either survive 100%, survive debilitated, or die, its your choice and your luck. if anything the last 5 years have taught me is, people would rather die than admit they're wrong and have their view of the world tainted. we will get to a steady state of infection (endemic). but being a true moderate, i do believe the left wings are going over board, we have to come out from under a rock at some point; but the right wing conspiracies are just plain bonkers-bananas.

in short, whatever you believe, just respect others' and be mindful and kind. we'll get over this.

[calj737]

…The 7 y.o. i chose not to vaccinate, because the number for pediatrics don't make sense right now, i'll wait and see.

Odd, your 7yo is “part of the unvaccinated masses spreading this pandemic” and yet you want to blame those very people. What a dichotomy of logic.

the COVID + numbers have gone up because we're dealing with a more infectious variant, also we're not hunkered down like in 2020, the freeways in california are busy like pre-pandemic, people are out and about. symptoms are milder because of the vaccine. it is currently truly a disease of the unvaccinated.

Again, your “opinion” is in direct contrast to medical facts. Since 2020 here in the US, almost 200 million people have been vaccinated, many times and boosted. If that is so, then how is that the spread continues and worsens? Calls into question the ultimate efficacy of the vaccine by any with an open mind. And hospitalizations currently show as many “vaccinated” patients as those who are “unvaccinated”.

prime example, we had a 70 y.o. vaccinated patient with covid in icu, she's doing fine. getting transferred out to the lower level floors, two 30's y.o. unvaccinated patients in icu on ventilator, on dialysis, and developing pulmonary hypertension due to destruction of the lung tissue. they're not gonna make it.

Hmmm, are you the primary doctor for all three of these patients? Do you know their extensive and complete medical history? Any underlying health issues? Because latest studies show a 30yo unvaccinated person is less likely to contract COVID than a fully vaccinated 50yo.

at this point, i just say get vaccinated or don't it doesn't matter to me, eventually everyone will catch it. just don't make it difficult for everyone else.

That’s a fairly narrow view of medicine, Dr. Ever heard of herd immunity? Natural immunity? To assert that “everyone” will contract a virus is simply a falsehood pandered under the auspices of authoritative credentials.

Personally, 2 of my kids have tested positive, one of them twice. My wife too. None are vaxxed. And we all live in the same small home, sharing rooms, meals and a bathroom. Nobody ever exhibited any symptoms, and my eldest and me have never once tested positive. I am certainly in the “risk” category if you look at the stats, but have never in my life had a flu, a flu shot, and only the odd cold every couple of years. I am the epitome of a less than healthy lifestyle, but seem resilient to infections and viruses. I guess I’m rather lucky. So, no, I don’t care to get a vaccine for something that I don’t need, don’t want, and don’t feel provides me any health benefit. So you can all keep your hysteria for yourself. I know more people who have ended up in the hospital despite their vax status than those who are unvaxxed and contracted the virus. Go figure-

[algophobe]

at the risk of starting an argument with CalJ, i'd like to respectfully respond.

yes you can be vaccinated and be carriers. you can unvaccinated and asymptomatic and be carriers. if you have active symptoms than you're more likely to spread it (that should be a given). not sure what your point was. my point regarding my 7 yo is simply to say that i don't necessarily say vaccination is the answer for everyone, depends on your risk profile. but you assume that risk. for a 3 or 7 yo their cells are constantly dividing and turning over. i'm not sure what the long term effects are in another 70 or 80 years their lives therefore i am hesitant. the risk of them ending up in the icu sick is much lower than you or i. therefore i chose not to vaccinate them (for now).

with regards the spread topic, one has to avoid equating "spread" with "active severe disease". the vaccine shortens the infectivity of an individual. meaning if i'm a carrier (vaccinated or unvaccinated) and without active infection, i have less viral load to spread. versus someone who has active infection, the viral load is higher and stays around much long and mode of transmission is more robust (constant coughing, saliva on hands and clothing). however if more people are out and about and start letting our guards down, the spread will worsen, in addition to the more infective variant. yes, hospitalization have both vaccinated and unvaccinated, but of the deathly ill are unvaccinated (~80%). i'm sorry but you can't argue the efficacy of the vaccination on individual benefits basis. millions have been vaccinated but at best we're 70% in the US (with most places in the US 30 to 50%), nearly 85% in Puerto Rico last i heard (active disease much lower there)... and its hard with constant migration of groups or individuals across state lines.

as to my knowledge of those patients, i'm not a primary doctor (those guys usually sit at the office and rarely touch active COVID patients), i'm in the hospital caring for acute patients (COVID and non-COVID) and a medical director of utilization in charge of reviewing all the charts of our group's admitted patients to make sure they're being cared for in a timely manner. so trust me... i know what i'm talking about when it comes to patients pre-existing conditions. yes, a 30 yo is less likely but is still at risk. when you see those three next to each other in the ICU you have to ask why risk when there's something that can minimize risk, just doesn't make sense.

lastly as a whole, we haven't reach herd immunity (that require at least 75% vaccination rate assuming all variants are equally susceptible to the response of the vaccination and the longer your spread out the period of vaccination from 6 months to severals years, you increase chances of new variation developing, alpha, beta, gamma, delta etc that may not be as affected by the vac), some may have natural immunity that why you yourself have never gotten sick from it. i've had a dialysis/diabetic/heart failure patients that tested positive on screening but have absolutely no symptoms from it. but if i had to make an educated guest, i think someday we may be able to nail down genetic susceptibility markers to viral infections (since the human genome has been sequence already). it's true, everyone will contract the virus, whether you have minor symptoms that your body just brush off like nothing (an the thought never cross your mind) or get very ill.

and yes i have credentials and work daily in the clinic and hospital setting with 15 years of experience. and i hope my experience and knowledge inform you... just as much as you, Cal, educate us on motorcycle mechanics, welding, electronics with your years of experience (all the stuff i work my butt of in order to be able do in my leisure). and i've read threads with people being rather rude to you for trying to give input on their build. i can be wrong as much as you, with our respective expertise. the intent was not to create hysteria (we have Fox and CNN to do that), merely to inform in a bipartisan manner.

[Terry in Australia]

at the risk of starting an argument with CalJ, i'd like to respectfully respond.

yes you can be vaccinated and be carriers. you can unvaccinated and asymptomatic and be carriers. if you have active symptoms than you're more likely to spread it (that should be a given). not sure what your point was. my point regarding my 7 yo is simply to say that i don't necessarily say vaccination is the answer for everyone, depends on your risk profile. but you assume that risk. for a 3 or 7 yo their cells are constantly dividing and turning over. i'm not sure what the long term effects are in another 70 or 80 years their lives therefore i am hesitant. the risk of them ending up in the icu sick is much lower than you or i. therefore i chose not to vaccinate them (for now).

with regards the spread topic, one has to avoid equating "spread" with "active severe disease". the vaccine shortens the infectivity of an individual. meaning if i'm a carrier (vaccinated or unvaccinated) and without active infection, i have less viral load to spread. versus someone who has active infection, the viral load is higher and stays around much long and mode of transmission is more robust (constant coughing, saliva on hands and clothing). however if more people are out and about and start letting our guards down, the spread will worsen, in addition to the more infective variant. yes, hospitalization have both vaccinated and unvaccinated, but of the deathly ill are unvaccinated (~80%). i'm sorry but you can't argue the efficacy of the vaccination on individual benefits basis. millions have been vaccinated but at best we're 70% in the US (with most places in the US 30 to 50%), nearly 85% in Puerto Rico last i heard (active disease much lower there)... and its hard with constant migration of groups or individuals across state lines.

as to my knowledge of those patients, i'm not a primary doctor (those guys usually sit at the office and rarely touch active COVID patients), i'm in the hospital caring for acute patients (COVID and non-COVID) and a medical director of utilization in charge of reviewing all the charts of our group's admitted patients to make sure they're being cared for in a timely manner. so trust me... i know what i'm talking about when it comes to patients pre-existing conditions. yes, a 30 yo is less likely but is still at risk. when you see those three next to each other in the ICU you have to ask why risk when there's something that can minimize risk, just doesn't make sense.

lastly as a whole, we haven't reach herd immunity (that require at least 75% vaccination rate assuming all variants are equally susceptible to the response of the vaccination and the longer your spread out the period of vaccination from 6 months to severals years, you increase chances of new variation developing, alpha, beta, gamma, delta etc that may not be as affected by the vac), some may have natural immunity that why you yourself have never gotten sick from it. i've had a dialysis/diabetic/heart failure patients that tested positive on screening but have absolutely no symptoms from it. but if i had to make an educated guest, i think someday we may be able to nail down genetic susceptibility markers to viral infections (since the human genome has been sequence already). it's true, everyone will contract the virus, whether you have minor symptoms that your body just brush off like nothing (an the thought never cross your mind) or get very ill.

and yes i have credentials and work daily in the clinic and hospital setting with 15 years of experience. and i hope my experience and knowledge inform you... just as much as you, Cal, educate us on motorcycle mechanics, welding, electronics with your years of experience (all the stuff i work my butt of in order to be able do in my leisure). and i've read threads with people being rather rude to you for trying to give input on their build. i can be wrong as much as you, with our respective expertise. the intent was not to create hysteria (we have Fox and CNN to do that), merely to inform in a bipartisan manner.

Excellent post Doc, good to see an intelligent, educated response to an attack, using your medical knowledge and first hand experience, without being disrespectful. And thanks for your service to your community, it must be really hard right now, stay safe!

[scottly]

Excellent post Doc

1+

[calj737]

at the risk of starting an argument with CalJ, i'd like to respectfully respond.

No argument perceived, Algo. You posted something that I see discrepancy in, I cited those questions. You responded (without specifically answering those questions, so that’s fine). Perhaps you know, perhaps you don’t specifics or can’t/won’t provide those details.

I don’t question your medical knowledge, I do always question Drs and medical professionals when they make sweeping generalizations about what people should do. Case in point, my son’s Endo Dr. She constantly sticks her foot in her mouth by parroting “Classic Protocols” and yet when confronted with specific evidence that contradicts that regimen, she’s all too quick to respond with “well, everybody is different…”.

Which is EXACTLY the point many of those who are opposed to a vaccine mandate or would believe that a vaccine is required- EVERYBODY is different. Our unique DNA and genetic disposition, lifestyles, environments provide us with a health guide. It is in my opinion nearly medical malpractice to dictate that recently developed vaccines and boosters should be mandatory or even heavily encouraged. You make the point yourself regarding treatment of your young children- long term effects are unknown. There’s no data.

I completely appreciate the delta between a young person still developing and an adult in terms of how their immune systems behave. But why should anyone feel entitled to tell me how to treat myself or my children? All the “pro-vaxxers” (I use that distinction as it appears commonly in public discourse) want certain rights to  use recreationally illicit drugs, terminate pregnancies, etc, but are all too willing to tell me that I have to adhere to their preference on a vaccine that I neither appear to need, and certainly don’t want. This is the issue, a lack of integrity and consistency in the argument. And the science is all over the place. Every day a new study appears that pokes holes in our last two years. Who/what are people supposed to believe?

Back to the comparison you drew between the 70yo and 30yo. Simply stating that one patient had a vaccine and the other didn’t, and the unvaxxed patient is now terminal as a result is completely misleading and possibly untrue. You provided no medical history of the 30yo, no ethnicity, no social status, no prior medical or lifestyle or work history that may be contributing factors to that person’s illness. And have no empirical evidence that a vaccine may have prevented their condition. You have medical conjecture. You may well be right that at a minimum it should have lessened their symptoms but that is educated speculation.

I don’t begrudge you, or find offense in anything you’ve said, posted or responded with. This is not an attack on you, or anyone who chooses their own medical treatments. But, you have stepped into a partisan attack (albeit under the auspices of a medical partisanship) with the assertion that this an epidemic of the unvaxxed. That is completely untrue and careless. And it defies your final statement- “whatever you choose, be mindful of others’ [sic] and be kind”. Your post was perceived by me to be very much a partisan attack on those who believe and choose differently. Some of us for health reasons, many for moral reasons, some for religious reasons. So I’d love to see more people practice what they preach about being respectful of other’s medical choices.

Best regards-

[jlh3rd]

at the risk of starting an argument with CalJ, i'd like to respectfully respond.

No argument perceived, Algo. You posted something that I see discrepancy in, I cited those questions. You responded (without specifically answering those questions, so that’s fine). Perhaps you know, perhaps you don’t specifics or can’t/won’t provide those details.

I don’t question your medical knowledge, I do always question Drs and medical professionals when they make sweeping generalizations about what people should do. Case in point, my son’s Endo Dr. She constantly sticks her foot in her mouth by parroting “Classic Protocols” and yet when confronted with specific evidence that contradicts that regimen, she’s all too quick to respond with “well, everybody is different…”.

Which is EXACTLY the point many of those who are opposed to a vaccine mandate or would believe that a vaccine is required- EVERYBODY is different. Our unique DNA and genetic disposition, lifestyles, environments provide us with a health guide. It is in my opinion nearly medical malpractice to dictate that recently developed vaccines and boosters should be mandatory or even heavily encouraged. You make the point yourself regarding treatment of your young children- long term effects are unknown. There’s no data.

I completely appreciate the delta between a young person still developing and an adult in terms of how their immune systems behave. But why should anyone feel entitled to tell me how to treat myself or my children? All the “pro-vaxxers” (I use that distinction as it appears commonly in public discourse) want certain rights to  use recreationally illicit drugs, terminate pregnancies, etc, but are all too willing to tell me that I have to adhere to their preference on a vaccine that I neither appear to need, and certainly don’t want. This is the issue, a lack of integrity and consistency in the argument. And the science is all over the place. Every day a new study appears that pokes holes in our last two years. Who/what are people supposed to believe?

Back to the comparison you drew between the 70yo and 30yo. Simply stating that one patient had a vaccine and the other didn’t, and the unvaxxed patient is now terminal as a result is completely misleading and possibly untrue. You provided no medical history of the 30yo, no ethnicity, no social status, no prior medical or lifestyle or work history that may be contributing factors to that person’s illness. And have no empirical evidence that a vaccine may have prevented their condition. You have medical conjecture. You may well be right that at a minimum it should have lessened their symptoms but that is educated speculation.

I don’t begrudge you, or find offense in anything you’ve said, posted or responded with. This is not an attack on you, or anyone who chooses their own medical treatments. But, you have stepped into a partisan attack (albeit under the auspices of a medical partisanship) with the assertion that this an epidemic of the unvaxxed. That is completely untrue and careless. And it defies your final statement- “whatever you choose, be mindful of others’ [sic] and be kind”. Your post was perceived by me to be very much a partisan attack on those who believe and choose differently. Some of us for health reasons, many for moral reasons, some for religious reasons. So I’d love to see more people practice what they preach about being respectful of other’s medical choices.

Best regards-

excellent post. It not thread topic, but neither were previous post from the other side. Fair is fair.
You're nicer than I wanted to post as I see through the veiled , pompous, (my opinion)  post in response to your post. Yes, "we" realize we are beneath you in our intelligence, doc.. You bet, I'm angry. I've seen the results of forced mandates on people, businesses, kids, economy, etc. Well, as much as I can that hasn't been silenced.
     There are no medical studies or facts showing the efficacy of the "vaccine " , virus load, and transmissibility,  and who is responsible for who's infection. It's theory and opinions based on who's side you're on and what "experts" think a virus does.
      Everytime we "crossed" the goal line as to what the "experts" told us we needed to do....the goal line was/is moved.
      Anecdotal stories are not 100% proof, but they're not invalid either. Hmm, the 70+ year old couple that passed away two weeks after getting their 3rd booster. Maybe if they had been allowed to have other treatments, they'd still be here. Why shouldn't I and my doctor have the freedom to choose.
Wear all the masks you want, take all the shots you want, stand where you want, stay home, whatever.
Quit dictating what I must do.

[ofreen]

I've seen the results of forced mandates on people, businesses, kids, economy, etc. Well, as much as I can that hasn't been silenced.
     There are no medical studies or facts showing the efficacy of the "vaccine " , virus load, and transmissibility,  and who is responsible for who's infection. It's theory and opinions based on who's side you're on and what "experts" think a virus does.

I follow this thread and have posted in it a few times, those posts no doubt considered off topic by my friend Jerry.  But I see the political side of this vaccine debate as very much a 'side effect' of covid and the vaccines.  It still amazes me how quickly lock downs, closing schools, censorship, discrimination against a large groups of people, unconstitutional power grabs, destruction of whole sectors of the economy and all the rest were placidly accepted by so many people.  If somebody had told me twenty years ago (or even 10) that people would knuckle under to the government telling them they couldn't go more than a 1/2 mile from their house (unless it is for "essential business", you know like going to Walmart, the liquor or pot store, etc) because of a disease with a 99% survival rate, I would have thought it an amusing belief.  I'm not laughing now.  So yep, looks like a side effect to me.

[calj737]

But I see the political side of this vaccine debate as very much a 'side effect' of covid and the vaccines.  It still amazes me how quickly lock downs, closing schools, censorship, discrimination against a large groups of people, unconstitutional power grabs, destruction of whole sectors of the economy and all the rest were placidly accepted by so many people.  If somebody had told me twenty years ago (or even 10) that people would knuckle under to the government telling them they couldn't go more than a 1/2 mile from their house (unless it is for "essential business", you know like going to Walmart, the liquor or pot store, etc) because of a disease with a 99% survival rate, I would have thought it an amusing belief.  I'm not laughing now.  So yep, looks like a side effect to me.

I subscribe to this way of thinking. Reminds me of the adage; “It’s not the years of life you live, but the life you live in those years”. I’d rather accept the risks and be free to live than be dominated by a bunch of political hacks with no more expertise than a Second Year Liberal Arts student with a major in Gender Studies. Thanks, but no thanks.

Nobody is getting out of here alive. Nobody. Live and let live.

[Don R]

 Live free or die. Surprisingly, a few of my friends and relatives made that choice. It seems more people I knew are being found dead at home recently, maybe that's just anecdotal evidence.
  I don't feel like getting a vaccine took away any of my freedoms and wearing the mask is just common courtesy. We're all getting exposed sooner or later, make your choices and I hope my health insurance doesn't go up a lot due to them.

[BomberMann650]

This has been a tough read.

2020 was a clusterf/// - 2021 was a roller coaster - yet here we are.

Right out the gate, the intel was flawed.  Someone somewhere leaked the idea this contagion was surface-borne.
That was the word which set everything on a downward spiral path.  "The longest two weeks" in recent memory.
Official responses by u.s. leaders varied wildly.  In some attempts to do everything possible, they didn't just toe the line of legality - they ignored it entirely. 
Other leaders who remained steadfast, didn't need to use oppressive tactics to "protect" their constituents.  The impact and spread of a virus seems to act autonomously - irrespective of legislative interventions.
Im planning a return to the northwest that is radically changed from what it was before.  As the man in charge continues to flirt with ideologies that parallel despotic European regimes of modern history.

During the holiday visit.  It became plain to see how effective the continued bombardment of negatively biased information had been.  If fear does indeed have a scent - the public air was thick of it.
These fear campaigns haven't been able to influence the heartland the same way.  While Im no stranger to dirty looks and judging stares.  This was different.  These people are afraid i will make them sick.  Which also wouldn't be the first time i had that effect on someone.  But again, this was different.  This wasn't about fashion sense or greasy sweat soaked biker gear.  This was a raw effect of psychological manipulation.  To these people, an uncovered face was the new public enemy no.1 - and everyone is a suspect

The research about coronavirus has improved.  But goes under reported by the media incorporated.  We have a better sense of the viral shed, the window of transmitabilty, and effective treatments - in addition to the vaccine.  But the public has yet to receive a unifying word of hope on the subject.  At this point, even if they were presented with good news - they may not believe it.

[Kelly E]

We call him Emperor Jay.

[BomberMann650]

We call him Emperor Jay.

Is that so?
I'm not in the habit of using mocking nicknames when discussing public administration.
Civil discourse tends to break down once the schoolyard bully tactics are employed.

[algophobe]

i started my post by stating that i'm as moderate as you can get and did so in giving an example regarding my young children. its my choice yes, and the long term data isn't there. if you think my statements are "veiled pompous" than you're reading my post with a pre-existing bias based on the unfortunate experience you've had with doctors. most people pass by me on the streets thinking i'm the day laborer about to pave their drive-way, than a surgeon.

i do have "some" trouble with "mandates" but rely on people's good judgement to follow. i do agree with you that there are double standards on both sides, "my body my rights", "you can't take my guns but i'll tell you what you can't do with your body".  but its hard to decide who without a doubt who shouldn't need a vaccine. don't think anyone who was an adult during the last pandemic to tell us how to exactly manage this pandemic, the world is vastly more mobile, complex and interwoven than since the 1920's. experts are figuring it out as they go as well, and yes using "conjectures" and making decision based on their educated knowledge as best they can in a very short period. its dizzyingly hard to care to the mass than the individual.

studies are constantly being conducted and published, even with long term studies, we were taught to sniff out valid ones from bad ones, even those published in JAMA and there are constant debates during hospital rounds about which study is valid and which is not. just because its published or conducted doesn't mean its sound, and there are publishers and journal reviewers that are biased based on their Alma Mater etc. prime example, a colleague of mine published a landmark paper back in 2008 or so regarding "early goal direct treatment of sepsis". it was like the bible for about 5 to 7 years.. well conducted study, but fell out of favor as new technology and more sensitive labs and tests evolved.

you talk about your child's "endo" (endocrinologist or endoscopist?) relying on protocols. it is because protocols are set up to establish "standard of care" because if you deviate from the standard of care and have a bad outcome, attempting to individualize treatments, as physicians we are held liable and spend the next 3 to 6 years entangled in a lawsuit with many sleepless nights and stomach ulcers. these protocols and standards are tested and aim to give the greatest results to the greatest of instances. one can only individualize once you're gone thru the SOC.

medicine works is probabilities (to answer our friend "jlh3rd") if any physician ever tell you 100% or 0%, i would leave that office immediately and get a second opinion. so if you're look for 100%, then you're dreaming. medicine like mechanics is in "tolerances" right? what's percent of death rate or survival rate is "tolerable". i'll admit going thru all this trouble to infringe on "your rights" is a hard sell when death rate is 1.5%. and i was an early skeptic as well. an experienced colleague infectious disease doctor told us that this epidemic will never spread in the US, our public health system is too well established (this is after the first couple of people got sick in Washington). but as i see how even now with this new surge, with again vast majority of people in hospital (and i'm not talking about 51%) are unvaccinated and a lot of paranoid people gumming up the ER, the hospital is at 150% capacity. the splash damage as you may hear is that other severe medical condition can't be treated. prime example, i had to cancel a cancer surgery on a patient today, early cancer, easily treat able, but there are no beds in recovery unit and no beds in the hospital because everything is being converted to care to the acute issues.

but ultimately we're not convincing each other to change sides, my goal is to understand better. its hard to convince someone to give up their individuality, burden them, or change their way of life to benefit those they don't know.  especially when asked to take interest in something that they have possible "innate immunity" to.  individuality vs. greater good right? the essence of the problem.

i stand by my statement "be mindful of others" because i'm not shaming you to get vaccinated. these are what i see on the ground, nearly every day for the last 2 years, no filtered media, facts. take it as you like. call me a pompous ass... doesn't bother me, this is just a motorcycle forum of people of different backgrounds.

[algophobe]

btw everyone is always talking about "live free or die" but i wish it was that simple. i'm terrified of living after being mangled, disabled requiring continuous O2, or not being able to tinker or work with my hands... i'm a biker, trust me the irony isn't overlooked.

[goodtryer]

but its hard to decide who without a doubt who shouldn't need a vaccine

Nope. Not hard at all. It should be up to the person himself.

You decide for yourself every time you ride a motorcycle that riding is the best for you at that moment. Safest? Certainly not. Best, in your demonstrated (not just stated) opinion? Irrefutably.

It's the same principle with vaccines.

If the vaccine works, which you must believe because you think I should take it as well as you, then take it yourself and let it work. Easy peasy.
If the vaccine and the masks and the distance work even better, then get the shot, wear a mask, stay at home and be the safe-est safe safester McSafeFace you can be.

I'll be over here unsafely out in the world riding my bike. There's more to life than being safe.

[algophobe]

but its hard to decide who without a doubt who shouldn't need a vaccine

Nope. Not hard at all. It should be up to the person himself.

You decide for yourself every time you ride a motorcycle that riding is the best for you at that moment. Safest? Certainly not. Best, in your demonstrated (not just stated) opinion? Irrefutably.

It's the same principle with vaccines.

If the vaccine works, which you must believe because you think I should take it as well as you, then take it yourself and let it work. Easy peasy.
If the vaccine and the masks and the distance work even better, then get the shot, wear a mask, stay at home and be the safe-est safe safester McSafeFace you can be.

I'll be over here unsafely out in the world riding my bike. There's more to life than being safe.

not exactly the same. riding a bike mainly affect me if i crash, but has relatively little effect of everyone else (unless i become a burden and get mangled and the wife has to wipe my backside for the next 30 years). but if you are the person who would have benefit from the vaccine but chose not to and get sick, then we have to take care of you and risk ourselves getting infected as well as, taking up a hospital bed that could be use for some other urgent medical issues. now multiply that many times over... and my little lady can't get her breast cancer surgery because the hospital is over run by people who feel the same way as you... is it fair to her? is her individual rights infringed? a solution? if you don't get vaccinated and get sick from covid and require medical attention, sign a DNR/do not treat card... stay home and manage it yourself, or find some quack to give you ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine and call it a day. its easy to see the world when your daily involves mainly caring for yourself and your family... very different when you have to care for hundreds and thousands of strangers. i get the whole lone biker, rebel mentality... but at some point we have to step back and see the bigger picture.

[BomberMann650]

Ahem....we tend to speak of life altering motorcycle crashes seriously around here.  (see. b.o.x.k.n.i.f.e.)

That said, people arriving to the E.R. to have the staff work up their anxious self-diagnoses is a problem.

[goodtryer]

but its hard to decide who without a doubt who shouldn't need a vaccine

Nope. Not hard at all. It should be up to the person himself.

You decide for yourself every time you ride a motorcycle that riding is the best for you at that moment. Safest? Certainly not. Best, in your demonstrated (not just stated) opinion? Irrefutably.

It's the same principle with vaccines.

If the vaccine works, which you must believe because you think I should take it as well as you, then take it yourself and let it work. Easy peasy.
If the vaccine and the masks and the distance work even better, then get the shot, wear a mask, stay at home and be the safe-est safe safester McSafeFace you can be.

I'll be over here unsafely out in the world riding my bike. There's more to life than being safe.

not exactly the same. riding a bike mainly affect me if i crash, but has relatively little effect of everyone else (unless i become a burden and get mangled and the wife has to wipe my backside for the next 30 years). but if you are the person who would have benefit from the vaccine but chose not to and get sick, then we have to take care of you and risk ourselves getting infected as well as, taking up a hospital bed that could be use for some other urgent medical issues. now multiply that many times over... and my little lady can't get her breast cancer surgery because the hospital is over run by people who feel the same way as you... is it fair to her? is her individual rights infringed? a solution? if you don't get vaccinated and get sick from covid and require medical attention, sign a DNR/do not treat card... stay home and manage it yourself, or find some quack to give you ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine and call it a day. its easy to see the world when your daily involves mainly caring for yourself and your family... very different when you have to care for hundreds and thousands of strangers. i get the whole lone biker, rebel mentality... but at some point we have to step back and see the bigger picture.

"quack to give you ivermectin" Is this the part where we're being respectful?

Crashing has little effect... "unless I become a burden".  How is that different from "I'm extremely unlikely to become hospitalized from covid... unless I do."?
You crash and become a burden and take up a bed having done something that you knew was unsafe, and that you knew could lead to this outcome, selfishly stealing a bed from some other unknown-yet-more-deserving person. How is that different?? I don't owe you or anyone else a hospital bed any more than you owe me a mask on your face.

Do you have a DNR for when you find yourself at the ER as a result of your selfish activities? Is it only future injured people that are selfish? Were those injured in 2018 and earlier selfish but we just didn't want to say it?

And those people who have to take care of me, didn't they get the vaccine? Aren't they protected by the thing you want me to get? Aren't they wearing 2 masks? It's all so confusing.

BomberMann, not sure who you're directing comments at but, to be clear, I'm not disrespecting anyone regarding crashes (or any other topic for that matter). I'm 100% aware I participate in a risky activity and that bad outcomes have happened to others and are possible for me.

[BomberMann650]

This discussion is a mess, so I don't care who brought it up.

Just know its not a great fulcrum to leverage your position.

[goodtryer]

It couldn’t be a more obvious, applicable parallel.

[Shopdog]

Having been through covid a couple months ago, I'll give my thoughts. I'm 48 and mostly healthy (about 40 lbs overweight, mild asthma, non-smoker, and hypothyroidism... but generally active and no major health issues). I didn't consider myself "high risk". I like to read and I studied countless hrs on the subject from different perspectives. Since there are no long-term studies on the vaccine and some reports of blood clots and myocarditis, I decided to plan ahead and chose other treatments.

When I came down with covid, my first test was negative. I figured it was just a bad cold or flu, but I had pretty severe chest congestion and a high fever. After a couple days, I retested and found out it was covid. I immediately took Ivermectin, quercetin, zinc, and I was already on d3 and vit c. I woke up the next morning and my lung congestion was 80% better. By the following day, I was taking walks around the yard and working in the garage.

I keep hearing about how Ivermectin is "horse dewormer". I've also read countless first-hand experiences and I believe it helped me. Ivermectin is a dewormer. That is true. But it's also a protease inhibitor, which reduces viral load. I've heard the argument about how the cdc would have recommended it if it worked. The problem I see is that the vaccine could not have been granted approval for emergency use if there were other valid treatments. Ivermectin is cheap and has proven to be one of the safest drugs out there. In some countries, it's sold otc.

In my risk category, my chances of surviving the virus was over 99% (unvaxxed). For young children, the survival rate is nearly 100%. I'm fairly certain more children have died from the vaccine than from covid. This entire experience has pushed me to the point where I will no longer have a shred of trust in my govt or the health care system. I've seen statistics that show 80% of people who died from the virus were obese. The govt decided the gyms should be shut down. I never once heard fauci or anyone from the cdc tell us to eat healthy and exercise. The federal government allowed tens of thousands of untested (and often infected) people across the southern border with total disregard for the spread. In fact, they bussed and flew them to different areas of the country.

I can go on for days about this, but there are a lot of us out here who see the lies and deception. And now, they want to try and force me to take an experimental vaccine which doesn't keep you from getting the virus? I don't believe they're looking out for my best interest.

[scottly]

And hospitalizations currently show as many “vaccinated” patients as those who are “unvaccinated”.

Where do you get that from, Cal? All recent reports I've seen say that 80% or more covid hospitalizations are unvaccinated patients.

[Shopdog]

I'll also share another quick story. During the beginning of the outbreak here in the US, my local news stations were telling everyone to stay away from the hospitals, as both of our two hospitals were overrun with covid patients. They explained how bodies were piling up and staff was working tirelessly.

In the midst of this lock down period, I had an accident while working around the house. I had to visit the er. I didn't know what to expect, but I had an arm that appeared broken (luckily, it wasn't). I walked into the er and there wasn't another patient in sight. After my x-rays, I waited to see the dr. They put me in a room by myself and left the door open. I watched the nurses station just outside my door and counted 17 staffers (nurses, techs, doctors, etc) all standing around bored. They were laughing and joking around. I did see one other patient while sitting there....a nude female mental patient with 2 giggling nurses chasing after her.

I also remember seeing the tik-tok videos of coriographed(sp?) dancing nurses around the same time. I know, from experience, covid is real. I just think the numbers and severity are inflated and we aren't getting facts (definitely not unbiased facts).

[Shopdog]

And hospitalizations currently show as many “vaccinated” patients as those who are “unvaccinated”.

Where do you get that from, Cal? All recent reports I've seen say that 80% or more covid hospitalizations are unvaccinated patients.

I don't believe any statistic I hear. I do know that there were more covid hospitalizations and deaths in 2021 than in 2020, despite a large percentage of vaccinated. Seems to me like these would have decreased after the introduction of the vaccine. I have a friend who works in the er with covid patients. He is pro-vaccine (anti-mandate). He told me that 90% of his patients were unvaxxed. The wife of another friend works in the same hospital and she tells me that his numbers are wrong. She's vaxxed (and coincidentally has covid right now). She is pretty sick, but not life threatening. Her husband is unvaxxed and had covid with very mild symptoms, if any. He went back to work today.