Topic: Bolt on HiPo Coil and H/T wires

[RAFster122s]

I enjoy revving to 6-7k...just not in 1st gear...

Just last night I had the twin turbos in my car pushing my car up to 90 on a stretch of road I wouldn't like to be caught doing 90 on...decided I should back it down a little... Doing 50-70 on curvy roads can be fun... G-force junkie

Delta do you want to help? Or just be a critical

[Deltarider]

Delta do you want to help? Or just be a critical

In reply #21 I've asked two questions. You could have helped by answering them.
RAF, do you want to help? Or just be a critical

[MauiK3]

Here on Maui most of our roads are 45 mph tops, a few short sections of 55, why I don’t know. I try to not upshift just to keep it around 3000 rpm. I always squirt up to higher speeds on a few specific sections where it’s unlikely I’ll get caught. Gotta keep that battery up!
Always use a battery tender.
I stayed with stock coils, I have a Euro style headlight with the 3 watt bulb that is always on.

[eldar]

So, at BEST, 200 watts right off the alternator. Now, lets factor in lights, 55/60, 25 for tail, another 32 for the bulbs in speedo/tach. Hell, that is over HALF the available wattage. Now, lets add in poor connectors, those will suck a few watts, and yes, they are not great connectors when new. After 40 years, they are even worse.
So, lets be generous and say 120 watts are used up. Now, how many watts are used in the ignition system? I think once we have that answer, we'll get a really good idea of what is left to charge the battery. I am willing to bet a minimum of 25 watts to power 1 coil. That makes 145 watts used, and I bet this is a low ball number.

[RAFster122s]

Delta do you want to help? Or just be a critical

In reply #21 I've asked two questions. You could have helped by answering them.
RAF, do you want to help? Or just be a critical

Sorry misread your questions as you typical rhetorical rants Delta...
You mind isn't changed by anything anyone says and your assumptions about American riders and their usage of our bikes that do not have the same operating requirements as yours are examples of that. We have no choice about running headlamps until the government changes it and our roads and traffic is different. Many have told you this yet you continue to claim we are all crazy and don't ride or drive as we should and any same Honda owner when operated it as Honda intended wouldn't have issue with H460W headlamps or needing to frequently trickle charge/maintain our batteries and our springs in the advancers wear out from fatigue and our front fork springs and rear shocks wear out too...
Our road system is poorly maintained and crumbling in most of the country through neglect as politicians pushed funds to other things than maintaining infrastructure in challenging freeze thaw or extreme heat and heavy vehicle use and now when things are falling apart they cry we need to fix all this at a much higher cost than maintaining and periodic replacement would have cost...
You don't live here and do not know what our country is really like so I tire of reading your rants and I would tell you to STFU but that would not be nice nor helpful. So, leave me alone and I will try to do the same. You can share your experiences and be helpful and don't broad brush the lack of need to do something you disagree with as there are lots of things POs and lack of maintenance cause you have no clue about. Your bike isn't subjected to POs since you bought it, ours may have had a dozen POs or 4 or 5 or more...
Speak to what you know, do not speculate on what you do not... otherwise expect pushback.

[HondaMan]

Despite Honda's specification of 0.2kw (200 watts) of power from the 500/550 alternator, I have never seen one that made more than 120w, brand new. The 750 can indeed, and often does, make up to 210 watts of power, but is of a different wire-pole wrap design and has more-separated phases (it is larger), so it works better below 5000 RPM than the more compact, and more 'lossy', design of the 500/550 version. I presently have 3 CB550 engines in the garage being rebuilt: the first 2 show about 85 watts output at 5000 RPM. There is reportedly a rewinder in Arkansas who can rewind the poles and add some more windings (by using smaller wires with improved insulation) and I may send one of these to them to see how that will work out: if they could deliver an actual 110 watts at 5000 RPM then the US bikes would be in much better shape, electrically. I once did this with my old 305cc SuperHawk because I got tired of never being able to use the electric starter: I rewound all the poles with smaller wire that had poly-coated jacketing instead of the old dipped-enamel insulation, and the battery never went flat again after that. But then, Illinois has long, cold winters that inspire time-consuming tasks like that was, and today I'm a little too busy to try it on the 550 myself...

The coils draw the most power when run below 5800 RPM on all of the SOHC4 bikes, due to the nature of their cores, using just 80% current above 6500 RPM as the metal core saturates. Delta's German friend refers to this as the Tau feature of the design, which is controlled by how much Mu-metal is used in the core of the coil. More metal makes for a cooler-running coil that has less 'voltage sag" when run outside its ideal RPM range: less metal makes more voltage at the extreme RPM ranges, but also more heat in the middle RPM ranges. And, the heat change is non-linear: they stay hotter at low and high RPM ranges as compared to the more-metal design. Honda's conservative design nature leaned toward the idea of having cooler coils for several reasons, one of which is: they still WORK after 50 years. I used up 3 pair of Dyna 3-ohm coils during the 1990s alone, because they get so hot that they just cook themselves to death by ruining the insulation on the wires inside (the plastic center of those coils just melted and oozed out of their bodies, every time). The ACCEL coils are very similar.

My little brother seldom had battery troubles with his CB500, but he also lived in the countryside and the bike never saw less than 5000 RPM when he rode as that was/is the bottom of the cam's torque curve (4800 RPM). Riding the Mid-Four this way goes a long way toward keeping the battery 'up', but takes discipline and practice - and quiet mufflers. If the bike does not have the quiet mufflers it can quickly become annoying to ride at the 5000 RPM minimum merely because that's also the noise peak of the exhaust, right at the beginning of the cam: engines tend to be that way. So, riders who are more used to larger twins or the family car that runs in the 2000-3000 RPM range seem to like running their bike the same way - then the battery goes flat if it is the 500/550 or 350F. (Honda changed the alternator design in the 400F, and it works better!)

[scottly]

Despite Honda's specification of 0.2kw (200 watts) of power from the 500/550 alternator, I have never seen one that made more than 120w, brand new.

How did you measure this? Did you have a variable load that you increased until the alternator could no longer maintain a 14.5V output? Depending on your technique, you tests may have shown a excess of 120w over what was required to run the bike with it's normal loads.  

[Deltarider]

We have no choice about running headlamps until the government changes it and our roads and traffic is different. Many have told you this yet you continue to claim we are all crazy […]

I have never criticised having the headlamp on whilst riding. Ofcourse not. Although not mandatory here, every biker has it on. You'd be a fool riding without. What I have criticised is the design forced on Honda. What's wrong with having to switch the light on yourself? US legislators demanded a stupid solution to... nothing actually. I mean, what happens when en route the bulb, having reached the end of its lifespan, would blow? Will your bike automatically pull over? What guarantee for safety is it then, when the bike doesn't do that, let alone alarm you?
Our bikes require maintenance every now and then. Some of that maintenance is best done with the engine running. I feel sorry for you, because either that maintenance has to be a quick story, or you'd have to disconnect the bulb. If you're lucky you 'just' have to remove a cover and pull the headlamp fuse. Let me see, which one was it again?
BTW, it's the same stupid design, I've criticised the European Saab cars for. It's as stupid as a refrigerator constantly spewing out ice cubes, you don't need.
I remember the first time I synced the carbs using gauges. During that the engine has been idling for some 15 minutes. No problem at all. Even the e-start was still present after that.
A little anecdote, if you'll allow me.
On my crossings of the Sahara desert I have met the funniest and most creative people. I remember that day - I myself had already made it -  when two bikers arrived at the same campground not far from Arlit, where the turmac begins again. They had met in the desert. The one on the old BMW boxer had been stranded in the Laouni dunes, with a depleted battery, due to defective charging. He had been spotted by a guy on - I believe it was a Ténéré. After they exchanged their batteries, they kicked and started riding again. In about the time the BMW had depleted the Ténéré's battery, the Ténéré had recharged the BMW's and they exchanged batteries again. They have repeated this and so made it safely to the campground. It gives you an idea for how long a breakerpoints equipped bike can run uncharged.
When it is about 'help', I'm afraid you're unfair here. In I don't know how many posts, I have given tips and it's my understanding some US riders have already turned to the Europe style headlamp, which offers a way better light than the USeless sealed beam and above that, have added the same switch gear, we have. Not only will it allow you to bring the ignition key in ON without having the headlight on simultaneously, you'd also have the possibility to switch to 'P', the pilot lamp. This might be useful, when you suspect your battery is low and you have to wait long periods of time at traffic lights. Simple and effective. I even suggested a relay connected to the neutral switch, to switch from 'H' to 'P', for if you really desire things done for you. What more help could you want from me? Haven't I further suggested to reduce the wattage of some lamps like the blinkers from 23 to 18 Watts, like European models have? Not that I expect much of that, but it won't cost much either and the signalling will be the same.

[…]
You don't live here and do not know what our country is really like [...]

Realise that the Dutch have about the longest vacations in the world and the good thing is, every day is payed: not only do you continue to receive your salary as normal, in May all employees receive a 7% bonus over your annual income, called vacation money. Personally I never had less than 6 weeks in summer and two weeks in winter. This has allowed us to travel the US a couple of times. We have met lots of wonderful people always. When we told them where we had been that trip, the reaction often was: you have seen more of our country than we have. Maybe I should leave it there.
Soon I hope to post more on parts I have had to replace and which not.

[eldar]

Delta, honda designed the headlight on, no politician did that. With yamahas, the headlight stays off till the bike is started. Which is essentially how it would happen if a rider was in control of it.

However, I would take the headlight out of the equation if people are using it no matter what. It becomes moot.
Another thing, barring more actual test input from Hondaman, or someone else, we CAN conclude the 500 charge system is not overly robust.

[Deltarider]

Despite Honda's specification of 0.2kw (200 watts) of power from the 500/550 alternator, I have never seen one that made more than 120w, brand new.

How did you measure this? [...]

We can't measure Watts ofcourse, if I may answer that one. We can deduct them however. Ohm's law concerns a closed system where the outcomes are always correct.
Lets first realise - and this may come as a shock for some - Ohms, Volts, Amps and Watts do not really exist. They're all human fantasies, but - and this is the good news - we can work with them. It's like with the laws of physics: they do not exist, but can help us understand the chaos out there and make a story of it. Every now and then a scientist like Einstein or young Heisenberg and later Schrödinger pops up to announce, we all have lived with illusions and produce a new set up, a new paradigma, valid until another Einstein enters the scene, etc. Science is a continuous process. You'd expect we know all about gravity by now. Not so. It's still one of the hot topics in science today.
Wait a minute, Delta, are you telling me, my Fluke is cheating? Well, yes and no. It cheates because, as said, nor Amps, Volts or Ohms can be spotted in real life, so don't worry, if you have never been able to tell the one from the other  and no, it works fine within our set of rules that we have agreed on. We can work with our illusions. An example? For a long tlme mankind has believed electrons travel, dance, wander, run, jump, whatever from the PLUS to the NEG in a circuit. Since - I believe the 50s - we know it is actually the other way around. Your Fluke has never been told however. It is a bit of a liar  , but hey, since we've realised changing all our books is a bit too much work and so agreed to hush about our new insight, we can forgive our Fluke which, oh... I almost forgot... has also been made by us humans, just like the rules of the game we use it in.
With Ohm's law you can make reasonable good predictions for a static situation, meaning what to expect. Dynamically and with an ignition system it's a bit more complicated, I am afraid.
The charging system of the CB500/550 is not overdimensioned, but it is certainly adequate.
Here are a few questions for those that stubbornly believe the charging system is not up to the task.
1. Why are there no complaints outside this forum?
2. For years I rode my bike with a lame PA switch. Not before entering a tunnel, I would detect the blue  idiot light, indicating the high beam was also on, because that lame switch had slided to the right unnoticed. Wow, including the pilot and taillight that's already a 125 Watts!. How long had I been riding like this? Minutes? An hour? How come my bike had not given up with - oh boy! - 3Ω coils!? 
Another example. Long time ago, in the 80s I had an illegal 100W halogen in the headlight. Why have I never run in a situation with a depleted battery? BTW, I've binned that bulb, when a befriended owner of another CB500 and I made a comparison test on a dark road. Turned out his legal 55/60 Watts Philips H4 produced more Lux than my energy waisting unbranded one.
3. Why has Honda never modified that poor charging system on the CB500/550 serie that ran from 1971- 1978?
Really, for tests, all you need is p.94 in the Shop Manual CB500-550. Maybe later, I'll go a bit deeper in the ignition system, but maybe not, because I'm bored stiff with the subject, where I have to repeat myself over and over again. Enjoy your bike and ride it and do not buy stuff which makes you drool but you don't really need. You're mostly sold an illusion. Recently a German engineer discovered his stock regulator in practice performed better than a modern one.

[Deltarider]

Delta, honda designed the headlight on, no politician did that. With yamahas, the headlight stays off till the bike is started. Which is essentially how it would happen if a rider was in control of it.

You're ofcourse right that Honda designed it. I cannot comment on the other brands, as I don't know if these Yamahas were already existing or new models. Honda was forced to change things on already existing models and this has not been a success. The blow-by gas system is another example. Sometimes I cannot help having the feeling, US legislation was out to make life as hard as possible for the 'invader' that was so succesful.
Doing maintenance with the engine idling with the lights on, mwah, I don't know, depends how long it will take. In case you have to do maintenance with just the IGN ON, I would definitely remove the headlamp's fuse. I hope for you, that then the socalled running lights will also be extinct.

[PeWe]

It is relatively easy to replace the handle bar switches with European models with more functions, headlight off and parking.

Interesting earlier post about battery and better voltage.

I started my CB750 K2 last week and let it idle in the garage after a head retorque just for sure (650km done after new gasket). (Easy with frame kit)
The voltmeter showed 13.1 V at 1000-1200 rpm!

Strange.... It might change after a long ride and exercise the regulator. 4000-4500 rpm did not create overvoltage.

Anyway, that bike has a cheap std wet battery.
My K6 that need higher rpm to reach 13V has a cheap GEL battery.
Both get a 2-3 days charge every month or 2 all year around.

Both have a max voltage when cruising under 14.5V, around 14.2-14.3.
Adjusted for GEL battery lower recommended charging voltage.

[eldar]

Delta, you like to blame the US. As I said, no politician designed the system. They set requirements engines had to meet. The design ce from Honda. If it was a bad design, that is on HONDA, not the US govt. It's clear from your posts l, you have some sort of ax to grind with anything related to the US. It's hard to reach any other conclusion when in almost every post, you are putting something down about the US. And if you think you aren't doing that, re-read your posts, and substitute Dutch for everything US.

Hey, we all know your bike is perfect, great. Why not the rest, who don't have such perfection, discuss how to get closer to it.

[bryanj]

Just for once i happen to agree with Delta on the lights always on, the legislation written says the lights HAVE to be n as soon as ignition is turned on, i pdi'd one of the first Harley 1340's sold in UK and that was the same till i cut the yellow link wire at the ignition switch, you thenturned the lights on at the bars.
Politicians dont give a #$%*e about real people and in my opinion, with a very few exceptions, are only in politics to put as much in there own pockets as possible.

There is an old saying " How can you tell if a politician is lying-- -- Easy, his lips are moving"

[TwoTired]

Politicians dont give a #$%*e about real people and in my opinion, with a very few exceptions, are only in politics to put as much in there own pockets as possible.

Virtue signaling has been a politician’s mainstay for decades.

They found a “study” that showed daylight driving with lights on reduced accidents and fatalities.  Now, of course, for everyone’s benefit, the government must force everyone to comply. (It is not a recent phenomena).  It was a win-win, as appearing to be a life concerned do Gooder garnered election votes and increased the overall duration by many paying into the general tax fund. Also gave the police another tool to pull over non-compilers on a whim, just to see if there was anything else they could get you for. Pretty certain the law was installed in California first disallowing vehicle sales in that state that gave the driver the option of turning off headlights.  Feds piled on later because, well, politicians.  No manufacturer wanted to make a special bike just for California market even though the weather there made sales pretty good for motorcycles.  And, there was little push back at the fed  level for giving any control illusions to the citizenry,  so we all lost control over lighting electrical loads on our bikes.

  In a democracy, minorities always lose, because their voices and reasons don’t matter to the masses who have no direct involvement in the subject matter.  Feelings and opinions are more important than the accuracy and data skewing made in the original one source “study” that was foundational for bolstering the vote tally.  “It’s for the greater good” when you lose your individual voice and choice.  (Isn’t that the basis for socialism/communism where your “betters” always make the correct decision for you?  And, you are required to thank them for it, or be “re-educated” after being marginalized as a weird alt-wing case, proven by another “study”.)

[Deltarider]

 

Delta, you like to blame the US. As I said, no politician designed the system. They set requirements engines had to meet. The design ce from Honda. If it was a bad design, that is on HONDA, not the US govt. It's clear from your posts l, you have some sort of ax to grind with anything related to the US. It's hard to reach any other conclusion when in almost every post, you are putting something down about the US. And if you think you aren't doing that, re-read your posts, and substitute Dutch for everything US.

Hey, we all know your bike is perfect, great. Why not the rest, who don't have such perfection, discuss how to get closer to it.

But... my bike is far from perfect. Soon I will have to replace the camchain tensioner for the third time. How many here can say that? Have a look at my main stand: metal fatigue. Also I've posted extensively about the troubles with a worn drive flange. It's only when someone 'sees' a 'typical shortcoming', I'll check it in my archives, which include extensive riders reports by I don't know how many owners who, combined, rode over 40 times around the globe. From mechanics back then I have learned what were the typical shortcomings and... what not. Then there are the French, the German and the UK sites for comparison.
I prefer to have my comments based on facts, because in this forum the facts always come first, to paraphrase a known anchorman.
I like the US and we feel sympathy for the inhabitants that it has become gaslit to a degree, we had held for unimaginable. In case you haven't noticed, all books I have referred to and praised, all, are by American authors. Here's another one that may cheer you up. It's by one of my favourite writers: Bill Bryson: Notes from a Big Country. It's hilarious. Read it!

[seanbarney41]

Hi Delta...last post is much appreciated.  Thanks.  I an american that has no qualms about about criticizing the U.S. and Americans...plenty of really bad stuff going on here.  But still, I don't much care whether my headlight has to always be on or not.  I mostly only care about 750's anyway, but I have owned a few 550's.  Never had any problem with them charging, even the poorly cared for ones. I think all the attention is just like a rumor, started via the internet, that has spread out of control.  Proof is how guys get a 500/550 and start trying to "fix" the charging system before they have even got the damn thing to run.  I understand little of electronics, but I can guarantee that cranking the starter and not starting the engine is gonna "for sure!" leave you with a dead battery lol.

[eldar]

Bryanj, the lights don't have to be on as soon as the key is turned.  As I said, yamaha doesn't do that and haven't for decades. They could have done it in the 70s. I can state for a fact that as far back as 84, this has been the case. My 06 is like this, I think all their models do. So, really, I think honda took the easy way out on this 1. Maybe it made a simpler system. Maybe it saved money. Probably both. I suppose a person could implement the yamaha method, thus reducing that drain pre-startup.

Either way, it never hurts to replace old wires or connectors, or use new tech such as leds. If it helps with battery charging, well that's just a nice side effect.

[Deltarider]

Either way, it never hurts to replace old wires or connectors, or use new tech such as leds. If it helps with battery charging, well that's just a nice side effect.

  But... it does hurt when the investment doesn't pay of, has been unnecessary, read: the expectations one had, have not materialised in practice, but just a fraction.
But hey, you've had your happy moments going the D.O.U cycle and 'caring' for you bike. Whether that 'caring' has been any more rational than a little girl nursing her doll...

[PeWe]

Relays will help.
1 relay for ignition
1 relay for headlamp LO
1 relay for HI
Thicker wires direct from battery, hanging fuse as close as possible to battery. Inside side cover with the other electrical stuff.

Extra ground wire from battery does not hurt either. It can be thicker on too.
This will avoid most of the load via the handlebar  switches that control the relays.

Better light, less losses.

[Little_Phil]

timtune: Have you thought of red?

[RAFster122s]

Relay for ignition switch to transfer the power handling from the switch contacts to the relay contacts can lead to longer life for the ignition lock's electrical switch.
By ignition you referred to above PeWe I interpreted that as power to the coils via the relay...
Or, were you meaning the lock's electrical switch?
Emgo switches for either the below the tank or in instrument cluster, one version or the other has a checkered history of high failure rates when electrical load is ran through them for  long...

[Deltarider]

The IGN switch on US models that have the headlamp-always-on wiring, sees a much higher current, when switched from OFF to ON. There's no switching without sparking. I estimate that on models that have this dreaded wiring, the IGN switch sees some 5A higher current when switched. That's a lot and this sparking could cause the IGN switch to wear prematurely and certainly quicker than on models that have the separate headlight switch. The relay that I have suggested is a break relay, which, triggered by the neutral switch, reduces the headlight to zero or the 'pilot' lamp position, other markets had, when neutral is selected. To me it seems an easy and economical solution.

[eldar]

Either way, it never hurts to replace old wires or connectors, or use new tech such as leds. If it helps with battery charging, well that's just a nice side effect.

  But... it does hurt when the investment doesn't pay of, has been unnecessary, read: the expectations one had, have not materialised in practice, but just a fraction.
But hey, you've had your happy moments going the D.O.U cycle and 'caring' for you bike. Whether that 'caring' has been any more rational than a little girl nursing her doll...

No, it won't hurt. A decent led bulb is brighter than the typical turn/brake bulbs. That is a measurable safety factor, and is never a waste.
New wires and connectors are never a waste as sooner or later, old connectors and wires fail, no matter what. Talk to any restorer of old vehicles and they will tell you, they'll never use old connectors or wires, unless they have zero choice. Even then, they'll still replace and unless it is for a 100% exact build, use a different style of connector.

And led headlight can be argued to a small extent. Depending on the housing it is in and if it can be adjusted(many can now), it may or may not be brighter. Though it usually is. Therefore, also not a waste. Put an hid in my 750, adjusted it properly, and it works spectacularly. The h4 can't remotely compete. All while pulling less wattage.
But whatever you need to tell yourself to sleep at night.

[PeWe]

Relay for ignition switch to transfer the power handling from the switch contacts to the relay contacts can lead to longer life for the ignition lock's electrical switch.
By ignition you referred to above PeWe I interpreted that as power to the coils via the relay...
Or, were you meaning the lock's electrical switch?
Emgo switches for either the below the tank or in instrument cluster, one version or the other has a checkered history of high failure rates when electrical load is ran through them for  long...

Relay feed the coils. Wire from ign switch to coils separated. Ign switch will power on the relay that feed the coils.
No high load on handle bar switches with all relays.

My K6 has louder horns that need a relay to feed them.

Plus a 5th relay switching off Parking bulb when LO is on to not disturb the light pattern.