Topic: Pumping gas with engine running

[70CB750]

I had a discussion with a guy at a gas station yesterday.  He kept himself and his blonde chick nice and cozy inside running car while he was filling up.  I told him he should know better and he said that he is doing it for 25 years and so far so good.

I called him some names and we parted.   

What do you think?  What oil would you use in said vehicle?  Would it make a difference if it was Ford or Chevy?   

[Scott S]

 His mom.... you know what to do.

[RAFster122s]

One day he won't be so lucky. Or, he will be finishing up and his phone will ring and he will answer it as he reaches for the pump handle and it will be enough to spark and then he will make the news...

[ekpent]

It seems static electricity is the cause of most of these fires. Is it OK that I fill up with a cigarette hanging out of my mouth, never had a problem yet. 

[RAFster122s]

The spark is what gets you and in winter static is worse. Sometimes cellphones add to your charge. When you touch the pump handle is when you get the spark if there is one. That's why lots of pumps have vinyl/plastic covered handles...lower risk of that spark. Getting in and out of a car can add to your static electricity charge.

[BomberMann650]

There was one time my old man tried to fill the tank with the motor running.
Something about the fuel system on that truck caused the gas to back flow. 
More gas went on the ground than into the tank
Still don't fully understand how the pump pressure would cause that.
But it did.  And the clear coat below the filler door got messed up from it.
I had just done some dent repair there too. 
Was not pleased with my dads stubbornness that day.

[70CB750]

I saw Jaguar XJ at a gas station filling up.  The pistol was stuck in and the guy was cleaning windshield when I heard the souind of splashing and sure enough the tank was full and the gas was gushing down over the trunk.  Maybe it was the location and pistol position. 

[goodtryer]

Although this article is about the pump shutting off too soon versus the 2 examples above where the pump did not shut off, there is some very interesting content from a fuel system engineer that explains the shut-off process in modern cars.

https://jalopnik.com/this-is-why-the-gas-pump-keeps-shutting-off-on-you-all-1842036809

Cheers

[Stev-o]

Here's my gas pump story...

Years ago, I had a roommate and his [sweet young] sister came to visit for a couple weeks.  I walked out of the house on my way to work and her white Ford Thunderbird was parked in the driveway, it still had the pump handle and hose in the gas tank filler neck!  Went back in and woke her up and asked WTH?!

It was winter and apparently she was pumping gas, was cold and stepped inside to grab a cup of coffee.  Then jumped back in her car forgetting that the hose was still in the filler neck, and drove off and didnt notice that she pulled the hose away from the pump!  In her defense, she may have been drunk?!!!

[ekpent]

  That's a funny story. Being a boat owner Steve I'm sure your aware of fumes and starter motors/circuits. On a Merc 140 inboard I bought once a guy had a big reminder sign mounted by the dash to help him remember to turn on the blower exhaust fan first.

[Stev-o]

  That's a funny story. Being a boat owner Steve I'm sure your aware of fumes and starter motors/circuits. On a Merc 140 inboard I bought once a guy had a big reminder sign mounted by the dash to help him remember to turn on the blower exhaust fan first.

Hey Eric...very aware of the issue gas fumes can cause on an i/o boat and I take it seriously.  Typically, if we are wakeboarding and/or tubing, the blower fans remain on even once I have started the motor.
That is one Ka-Boom I do not want to hear.

[krusty]

One day he won't be so lucky. Or, he will be finishing up and his phone will ring and he will answer it as he reaches for the pump handle and it will be enough to spark and then he will make the news...

There has never been a documented case of a cell phone causing an explosion at a service station. The myth of “static electricity discharge” is absolute hogwash. The origin of the ban was due to paying attention, not a safety concern over combustion.

As for the vehicle to be running as a safety concern, it too is based more in myth than practical reality. Static discharge from a vehicle is super unlikely as even now, EPA controls have fuel vapor recovery nozzles. And even if your vehicle did discharge, the percentage of air/fuel vapor by volume would need to be so high that in an open air environment, it’s implausible. For Pete’s sake, while you are refilling, cars pull up, pull off, and drive by all damn day. Where’s the difference?

Now, I’m with you, Prokop, the sign says, “Turn of motor while fueling”. So abide the law or receive an arse-chewing. But he wasn’t endangering you in actual fact.

I think it goes back a few more years, pre cell phone, when some vehicles were fitted with radio transmitters some of which could produce a poweful spark if grounded. I think I can recall seeing signs "switch off transmitters" in gas stations. In the army I was a radio operator and drove around in FFR (fitted for radio) Land Rovers. The antennas on these vehicles were heavily insulated.

[Don R]

 In the late 70's we went on a bike trip, the group stopped for gas and an attendant came out, he insisted on gassing the bike for me even when I said I'd prefer to do it myself as I was sitting on it at the time. Sure enough he sprayed gas all over my crotch. I had hot nuts the rest of the day.

[Kelly E]

In the state of Oregon you can't pump your own gas. Once on a trip down Hwy 101 to San Francisco in my buddies freshly painted black 74' Corvette he nearly beat the crap out of the attendant after he drug the hose across the rear deck and dumped gas all over it when he filled it. Now when I am riding in Oregon I will not let them fill my bike. I'll go to a different station if they won't let me, they usually do if I demand to fill it myself.
On the same trip and later the same day in a Dairy Queen parking lot in Bandon Oregon a kid backed his daddy's 5.0 Mustang GT into the gills behind the left front wheel. My buddy was so pissed off he walked away so he didn't kill the dumbass. The police asked were the owner was so I told him about our day so far. The kid had no license and his parents were in Europe. He was arrested and the car impounded until the parents got home from Europe. That was the first day of our 2 week roadtrip, the rest of the trip was great.

[ofreen]

In the state of Oregon you can't pump your own gas.

It has been legal for motorcyclists to pump their own gas in Oregon for the last 20 years or so.  However, the law itself is still silly as hell as it says that a highly trained pump jockey has to "Upon the request of an operator of a motorcycle, the owner, operator or employee of a filling station, service station, garage or other dispensary where Class 1 flammable liquids are dispensed at retail shall set the fuel dispensing device and hand the discharge nozzle to the operator of the motorcycle."  So they are supposed to run your card and start the pump for you, then you are supposed to hand the nozzle back to the expert when you are done so it can be hung back up.  Of course, he/she/they/it is probably elsewhere when you finish so it is necessary to defy death and hang it up yourself and get your receipt.  Pretty ridiculous.

[Gordon]

In the state of Oregon you can't pump your own gas.

It has been legal for motorcyclists to pump their own gas in Oregon for the last 20 years or so.  However, the law itself is still silly as hell as it says that a highly trained pump jockey has to "Upon the request of an operator of a motorcycle, the owner, operator or employee of a filling station, service station, garage or other dispensary where Class 1 flammable liquids are dispensed at retail shall set the fuel dispensing device and hand the discharge nozzle to the operator of the motorcycle."  So they are supposed to run your card and start the pump for you, then you are supposed to hand the nozzle back to the expert when you are done so it can be hung back up.  Of course, he/she/they/it is probably elsewhere when you finish so it is necessary to defy death and hang it up yourself and get your receipt.  Pretty ridiculous.

When I lived in Eugene in 2004 all it took to get the pump jockey to turn away was a quick shake of my head as I pulled up to the pump.  Only had to have that awkward card/pump handle exchange once to learn that lesson. 

[Gordon]

And to the original topic: 

1.  The only reason I turn off my engine when pumping gas in my car is because the signs say I have to, and if I don't some crazy guy may come up and start calling me names.   

2.  10W-40 for pre-2000.  5W-20 for after.

3.  Ford or Chevy absolutely makes a difference.  Unfortunately you'll have to ask a Ford or Chevy guy to find out. 

[ekpent]

In some places if you don't turn off your car while pumping someone will hop in and drive it off !  Car thefts are on the rise big time in some places.

[Stev-o]

1.  The only reason I turn off my engine when pumping gas in my car is because the signs say I have to, and if I don't some crazy guy may come up and start calling me names.   

Hilarious!! 

[spotty]

In some places if you don't turn off your car while pumping someone will hop in and drive it off !  Car thefts are on the rise big time in some places.

so, theoretically of course, if you had a car thats insured for more than you could ever sell it for, assuming someone would buy the piece of sh1t, you could just leave the keys in while refilling and someone might theoretically drive it away.....any ideas where these "some places" might be found

[Stev-o]

In some places if you don't turn off your car while pumping someone will hop in and drive it off !  Car thefts are on the rise big time in some places.

you could just leave the keys in while refilling and someone might theoretically drive it away...

I've heard that insurance companies [here in the States] wont pay a theft claim if the car is running or keys left inside when stolen.

And here in Texas, it is illegal to leave your car running when unattended.

[70CB750]

And to the original topic: 

1.  The only reason I turn off my engine when pumping gas in my car is because the signs say I have to, and if I don't some crazy guy may come up and start calling me names.   

2.  10W-40 for pre-2000.  5W-20 for after.

3.  Ford or Chevy absolutely makes a difference.  Unfortunately you'll have to ask a Ford or Chevy guy to find out.

 

He was on the other side of mine gas pump, I really did not seek him out.    Yes, I am an #$%*, but most of the time I leave people alone 

[Steve F]

Myth Busters did a few segments about the cell phone at the pump nonsense and it is in fact a myth: 

[goodtryer]

A little dated but interesting none the less: A report from Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB)

http://www.esdjournal.com/static/Static_Fires.pdf

A review of the literature revealed that, between 1993 and 2004, there were 243 reported
incidents of fires breaking out at petrol stations around the world. Although the fires were
claimed to be caused by exploding mobile phones, experts have subsequently revealed that
not one of the incidents was associated with telecommunication equipment. Instead, many of
the fires were ignited by the discharge of static electricity from the human body.


The American Petroleum Institute in the article "Staying Safe at the Pump" says nothing about cell phones but they do mention turning off the engine and avoiding static: https://www.api.org/oil-and-natural-gas/consumer-information/consumer-resources/staying-safe-pump

Here are additional consumer refueling safety guidelines that will help keep you and your family safe when refueling your vehicle or filling up gasoline storage containers:
Turn off your vehicle engine. Put your vehicle in park and/or set the emergency brake. Disable or turn off any auxiliary sources of ignition such as a camper or trailer heater, cooking units, or pilot lights.
Do not smoke, light matches or lighters while refueling at the pump or when using gasoline anywhere else.
Use only the refueling latch provided on the gasoline dispenser nozzle. Never jam the refueling latch on the nozzle open.
Do not re-enter your vehicle during refueling. If you cannot avoid re-entering your vehicle, discharge any static build-up BEFORE reaching for the nozzle by touching something metal with a bare hand -- such as the vehicle door -- away from the nozzle.)

Cheers

[dave500]

mate of mine had an old falcon that somehow gave the first person who got out a pretty good shock,he always let someone get out first,car never blew up.

[ekpent]

 My wife owned a first gen Chevy Trailblazer that was a major 'shocker' We would kid about getting shocked while getting out and she claimed she could hear it crackle !

[RAFster122s]

Was it a TV network or Myth Busters who put a model  rocket ignitor in the opening of a gas tank years ago and got busted for falsely reporting some danger of gas tank explosions and slow mo zoomed in video showed their trickery to support the story they were trying to claim?

Vapor in enclosed space is a problem if it mixes to right concentration ... dropping a match into a gas can doesn't cause it to explode unless the vapor has enough oxygen to be an explosive mixture...
 

[Kevin D]

Not gasoline, not a car, but related:
 At work, there was an event: an explosion occurred inside a 55 gallon drum while filling it with oil. It ballooned the drum, shot a flame out the bunghole 15 feet in the air, and singed the eyebrows of the crewman standing by.
 The 400 gallons of oil was being moved from a piece of failed power equipment. The arcing decomposed the oil and filled it with beaucoup combustible gas including acetylene, methane, ethane…… The drum was splash filled, not bottom filled with a standpipe, so the gases were freed upon entry. The 1” hose used did not have an internal wire for grounding/stiffening, like it’s supposed to. The drum didn’t have a ground wire either…. And the oil was filtered on its trip from the failed equipment to the drum. There is lots of friction between the moving oil and the filter increasing static charge on the oil.
 It was hard to believe, I had never heard about or seen anything like that, and neither had anybody else. Much reading followed and I found a couple similar incident reports from the 50’s, and ASTM? standards for tanker filling and unloading including grounded equipment to dissipate static charges.
 Is there a lesson here, I don’t know. Be careful, not casual.

For motorcycle filling I’d be concerned about overfills getting to a hot engine/exhaust. I always have two hands on the pump handle, eyes in the tank hole, finish fill as slow as possible till level touches the bottom of the neck.
Edit: I forgot to say I keep the pump nozzle against the tank neck when filling the CB.

[jlh3rd]

A little dated but interesting none the less: A report from Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB)

http://www.esdjournal.com/static/Static_Fires.pdf

A review of the literature revealed that, between 1993 and 2004, there were 243 reported
incidents of fires breaking out at petrol stations around the world. Although the fires were
claimed to be caused by exploding mobile phones, experts have subsequently revealed that
not one of the incidents was associated with telecommunication equipment. Instead, many of
the fires were ignited by the discharge of static electricity from the human body.


The American Petroleum Institute in the article "Staying Safe at the Pump" says nothing about cell phones but they do mention turning off the engine and avoiding static: https://www.api.org/oil-and-natural-gas/consumer-information/consumer-resources/staying-safe-pump

Here are additional consumer refueling safety guidelines that will help keep you and your family safe when refueling your vehicle or filling up gasoline storage containers:
Turn off your vehicle engine. Put your vehicle in park and/or set the emergency brake. Disable or turn off any auxiliary sources of ignition such as a camper or trailer heater, cooking units, or pilot lights.
Do not smoke, light matches or lighters while refueling at the pump or when using gasoline anywhere else.
Use only the refueling latch provided on the gasoline dispenser nozzle. Never jam the refueling latch on the nozzle open.
Do not re-enter your vehicle during refueling. If you cannot avoid re-entering your vehicle, discharge any static build-up BEFORE reaching for the nozzle by touching something metal with a bare hand -- such as the vehicle door -- away from the nozzle.)

Cheers

Although I don't recall any incidents, I fueled aircraft at the commercial airport in the 70's working my way through college.
The first and last thing we did was connect and disconnect the "static" line from the fuel truck to the grounding rod in the apron.

[Don R]

 I remember seeing static discharge straps for cars on sale, they hung under the car and drug on the ground. They had a lightning bolt logo on one side. I'm not sure what they were made of.

[Don R]

https://www.amazon.com/Static-Strip-Ground-Vehicle-Driving/dp/B08CXPMQLT/ref=asc_df_B08CXPMQLT?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80264463741084&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583863993081291&th=1

[dave500]

i believe those were meant for car sickness in the day?

[jlh3rd]

that's what I always remembered about those ads....J C Whitney...

[Dunk]

I always turn my stuff off. The only four wheeled vehicle I drive the past few years is a diesel pickup though. I'd probably leave it running in the winter if not for the parking brake always failing within a year or replacing parts, every time. Easier to turn it off and put it in gear than drop a block of wood behind the tire. Granted, with 57 gallons capacity I only fill it every few months. Either way, I think it's an exceedingly rare case for gasoline to ignite while fueling. Gas is actually very difficult to light.

[HondaMan]

There was one time my old man tried to fill the tank with the motor running.
Something about the fuel system on that truck caused the gas to back flow. 
More gas went on the ground than into the tank
Still don't fully understand how the pump pressure would cause that.
But it did.  And the clear coat below the filler door got messed up from it.
I had just done some dent repair there too. 
Was not pleased with my dads stubbornness that day.

His pressure-relief PCV valve in the EFI system wasn't working right, This was real common in the 1990-2005 cars and would 'pop' at the gas cap when opening it, and pump fuel out if the pump and engine was running and more than 1/3-ish tank full.

[HondaMan]

Gas is actually very difficult to light.

I didn't believe this until one day a guy came to my bike shop and demonstrated something I still don't quite "get" from that day.
He put some gas in a pail (about a pint in a 1.5 gallon bucket) and threw a lit match into it: the match just went out! Then he threw a lit cigarette in, and it burst into flame. He was a chemistry teacher at the college where I went then. What he explained was something like, "The active flame burns off the aerated fumes on its way into the fuel, using up the oxygen before the match hits the gas. Then the gas can't light. But throwing the lit cigarette in only burns off SOME of the oxygen, so there is enough left to let the gas catch fire and burn."

Poppycock?

But, I can't repeat what he did. Whether a match or a cigarette, I never could repeat it: both always lit the gas when I've tried it. It was about 85 degrees and that much humidity that day, if it matters..

Thoughts? Experiences?

[jlh3rd]

eh...way back when (70's), I heard it's not the gas that burns , but the fumes and that you could throw gas on a lit cigarette and put it out.....so I did...and it did.....I never tried the reverse.

[Don R]

 A friend tried to start a bonfire with biodiesel, it would not light even on formerly dry leaves. Once a fire was established it burned fine. I've witnessed fools lighting things with splashed gas too, that's never a good idea.
 Another guy invited us to a weenie roast. We could see the smoke column 20 miles away. I joked that must be the weenie roast. Sadly, it was. Several trees in a ditch and he forgot about the tires under them. We roasted no weenies that day or night. You couldn't get close enough.

[seanbarney41]

eh...way back when (70's), I heard it's not the gas that burns , but the fumes and that you could throw gas on a lit cigarette and put it out.....so I did...and it did.....I never tried the reverse.

+1...I think you got the story flip flopped and, yes I have done this experiment.  Lit cigarette is extinguiished by the gas.  A burrming match will ignite it.  If you use the nasty old gas that came out of the sittin around for 25 years tank we are usually dealing with it will extinguish both.