Author Topic: Horn installation  (Read 1286 times)

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Offline Bais

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Horn installation
« on: January 20, 2022, 01:41:35 PM »
I reconditioned the horn on 69 CB750.  It works great when wired up until I go to attach it to the frame.  I must short out or something because the only sound is a click or nothing.  Any ideas as to why and/or how to correct?

Offline MauiK3

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Re: Horn installation
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2022, 05:30:10 PM »
Check that the horn gets grounded well.
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Offline Bais

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Re: Horn installation
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2022, 05:37:44 PM »
Thanks MauiK3. 
Grounded well as best I can determine.  I can touch the horn anywhere on the frame and activate it with the horn button as it should.  Only exception is when I attempt to attach it to the plate where it should normally reside.  Can't figure out why that one spot is an issue.

Offline Kevnz

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Re: Horn installation
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2022, 06:29:11 PM »
In that case, it's either a bad earth on the horn mount, or a break in the wire that opens up at the angle the horn is mounted, I suspect. Not much else it can be.
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Offline scunny

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Re: Horn installation
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2022, 07:15:30 PM »
has the frame been painted or powder coated ?
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Offline Bais

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Re: Horn installation
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2022, 08:55:06 AM »
Scunny; Yes, the frame has been painted.

Also, Kevnz; what does "a bad earth on the horn mount" mean?

Online Don R

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Re: Horn installation
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2022, 10:48:03 AM »
 The paint may be insulating the ground path between the horn and frame. "bad earth"
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
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Offline Kevnz

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Re: Horn installation
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2022, 12:03:43 PM »
Your horn has 2 wires, light green and black, correct? When you say you touch the horn on the frame, do you mean the actual body of the horn? It should be earthed via the black wire, so make sure that connection inside the headlight bucket is good. Don't worry about the frame mount being painted.
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Offline bryanj

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Re: Horn installation
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2022, 01:39:12 PM »
The early ones should be wired that the black is permanently live with the ignition on and the light green grounds to the bars when the button is pushed so either the black isnt powered or the green isnt grounding, way too many possible faults to list here
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Offline Bais

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Re: Horn installation
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2022, 01:43:21 PM »
Thanks Kevin.  I think both the black and green (ground) are connected properly and securely but, I am going to check them again.  The horn has a metal plate it is secured to and when that plate is placed on (touched to) the frame, at the point where it is to be attached, is when the problem occurs.  I'll also check for a break in the wire at the angle it has when attached as you pointed out previously.

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Horn installation
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2022, 05:46:58 PM »
Headlamp bucket not grounded? If ground wire is going there you might have an issue.
Heard of one bike that put an air horn on bike using stick wiring without a relay arced the ball bearings in the steering head and burned up horn switch at same time. Ball bearings in steering had several with evidence of arc welding on them...
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Offline Kevnz

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Re: Horn installation
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2022, 05:50:08 PM »
I've just looked at the wiring diagram and Bryan is right; when the ignition is on there should be 12v on the black wire and the horn button supplies the earth, so the problem is likely in the button, not an earth (frame) connection. My mistake. So if you earth the light green wire inside the headlight shell connection and the horn works, the fault will be back toward the handlebar switch, probably the wire has broken off the contact that the button earths. It can be dismantled and soldered, but it will test your dexterity and patience, big time! Dismantle it in a large, uncluttered area if you can, because bits and pieces may go flying and be hard to retrieve if the area is cluttered. Might help if you can put a large plastic bag over the switch as you dismantle, just in case. Once you have it apart, you'll be able to become familiar with how it goes back together, but it'll probably take several attempts. If you have a multimeter, you can see if the horn button is working by connecting the green wire to one lead and the other to the handlebar and checking using the ohms scale. That reminds me, the bars aren't painted are they? I think the horn earth is via the bars, so if they are'nt properly grounded, that could be your issue.
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Offline Bais

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Re: Horn installation
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2022, 06:30:10 PM »
The horn works properly when the wires from the horn are connected to the spur off the harness that contains the same black & green wires.  The problem comes when I try to attach the horn plate to the frame plate.  I can hold the horn plate against other metal parts of the frame without an issue.  The handlebars are not painted, and I will try checking with the multimeter tomorrow before taking apart the switch.  I know from working the starter/headlight switch that it is a patience tester.
Thanks for keeping the ideas and suggestions coming.

Offline Kevnz

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Re: Horn installation
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2022, 07:11:06 PM »
That doesn't make sense.   I don't believe the frame of the horn, the body, has any electrical connectivity to the rest of the circuitry; it's plastic, isn't it? This is an original horn? Try connecting your meter on ohms scale between light green on one lead, black on the other( these wires coming from handlebar switch) and see if you get continuity when you press the horn button. It sounds like the body is shorting out when attached to the mounting bracket, but if that's the case it would also do that with any other part of the frame. Weird.
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Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Horn installation
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2022, 09:58:47 PM »
Check for 12v or voltage on the horn body and holes or studs of the horn before you attach it to the plate. Might have a short in the holes but enough to disrupt the voltage potential causing the horn to not work but not enough to cause the fuse to blow.

Put your negative lead of multimeter on the negative post or connection of the battery for your testing...

Your grounding circuit could be compromised in the wiring. Maybe pull the green wire off the horn terminal and use a jumper wire to a ground on the bike after you bolt it to the plate.
 Test for voltage on your green ground wire when it is disconnected and see if your resistance goes to a small number or zero when you press the horn button. When the button isn't pressed it should show infinite resistance or no reading...
I would put one lead on the handlebars and another on the horn ground wire, green.
Your triple clamps clamping area for the handle bars isn't painted, right?
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Offline Bodi

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Re: Horn installation
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2022, 07:25:50 AM »
My theory: the horn is being mechanically disabled when it's securely bolted on. The vibrating bit inside works OK when the horn body can vibrate as well, but it doesn't work with it immovable.
I had the same problem relocating my 400F horn, and made a more flexible mount. Still works (40 years later).

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Horn installation
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2022, 08:12:15 AM »
Put a pair of neoprene washers between the horn mount and the horn...it can move then...
Horn hooked up to green and black wires should beep if you touch it to the mount...(like it did when you touched it to other grounding spots and it worked) if it does not, there is something funny going on...
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Offline bryanj

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Re: Horn installation
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2022, 08:58:27 AM »
If it wotks when touched to one place but not when touched to another i would suspect a wire broken iside the insulation
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Offline Bais

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Re: Horn installation
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2022, 11:22:59 AM »
Did a lot of continuity/voltage testing per the previous suggestions.  The horn wires tested directly from the switch through the headlight, have continuity.  When I attach one lead to the handlebars (which are not painted) and one to the green wire it has continuity when the horn button is pressed. 
The one area that poses a problem may be the mounting holes.  When I tried to connect one lead to the horn and the other to the mounting hole the fuse blew.  It doesn't blow when I'm mounting the horn, but that is when I have the problem of it not working.
Does it make sense that there could be a short in the threads for where the mounting bolts are attached?  It so, would it be advisable to use some type of nylon bolts to attach the horn or is that just hiding a problem?
Weird!

Offline Kevnz

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Re: Horn installation
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2022, 11:47:10 AM »
Are you bolting the horn directly to the frame, or does it have the correct bracket attached? There should be no electrical continuity between the whatsoever between the horn, bracket and frame mount when secured. Have a look at page 124 on the 550F parts manual; is that what you have?
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Offline Kevnz

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Re: Horn installation
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2022, 11:50:58 AM »
Page 152 in CB750 parts manual.
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Offline Bais

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Re: Horn installation
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2022, 05:59:50 PM »
Thanks, Kevnz for working with this.
I don't have the CB750 parts manual you referenced but, I attached photos of the horn and metal bracket that attaches to it along with a photo of the frame plate it gets mounted to.  It is the original horn that came with the bike.  Those holes in the frame mount are where I am getting the shorting out.

Offline Kevnz

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Re: Horn installation
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2022, 09:00:38 PM »
So the horn works in the position shown, but not when bolted to the bracket, is that right?  What about if you hold the horn in the right orientation at the bracket without actually touching the frame? Ok until you actually bolt the bracket? Had the horn apart, any sign of wires inside shorting to the bracket? Can you check electrical continuity between either of the wires and the mounting bracket with a meter? BTW parts list and wiring diagrams are available here under manuals and technical category. Invaluable.
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Offline Bais

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Re: Horn installation
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2022, 03:28:27 AM »
Horn works in the position shown and when oriented like it would be when mounted but not actually touching the frame at the mounting plate.  No indication of fraying wires that might touch something when held at the mounting angle.  Checking for continuity between a horn wire and the bracket is when I had the fuse blow. 
BTW - Thanks for the info on the manuals & tech category.  That is a valuable resource.

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Horn installation
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2022, 04:38:18 AM »
http://manuals.sohc4.net/cb750k/

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Offline Bais

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Re: Horn installation
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2022, 06:13:10 PM »
RAFster122s - thanks for the tips on the manuals.  Much easier to use when they lay flat.  Still trying to diagnose / fix the horn shorting issue.  Small steps.