Author Topic: CB400F 1977 engine rebuild - piston ring groove clearances  (Read 1591 times)

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Offline berbecs

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Re: CB400F 1977 engine rebuild - piston ring groove clearances
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2022, 10:10:50 AM »
The engineer guy who helps me said that I probably need a new camshaft.
I looks a rought to be fair, the lobes are flattened and have a "shoulder". He said it would work but for not too long, and it wouldn't be a wise choice to rebuild the engine but leave the camshaft in this state.

So my question would be, do you have any suggestions for buying a new camshaft? ;D
I found a couple on ebay, but very hard to tell the difference from a picture.

Offline bryanj

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Re: CB400F 1977 engine rebuild - piston ring groove clearances
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2022, 11:54:05 AM »
A "new" camshaft will be expensive and rare and you will need 8 rocker arms as well.
Used will come up on ebay but be carefull about condition
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline berbecs

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Re: CB400F 1977 engine rebuild - piston ring groove clearances
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2022, 05:58:25 AM »
Do you have any thoughts on Yoshimura performance camshaft?

Configuration:
Complete ST-1M Camshaft Kit
Maximum Lift:
Inlet 7mm / Exhaust 6.8mm
1mm Duration:
Inlet 230 Degrees / Exhaust 228 Degrees
Standard Tappet Clearance:
Inlet 0.14mm / Exhaust 0.14mm

I could not find the spec for the original camshaft.

I assume it is a modified design for higher performance, but I can't find the spec of the original camshaft.
I am not looking for performance, but I considered it because it is brand new. I found ST-1 and ST-2 version,
Downside is, besides the price that I don't want to overload the engine.

Offline bryanj

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Re: CB400F 1977 engine rebuild - piston ring groove clearances
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2022, 06:03:41 AM »
Yoshi cam will need different advance amount and a change in rear sprocket as the power band is moved up the rev range,
I say this from fitting one to a 500 in 76
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline berbecs

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Re: CB400F 1977 engine rebuild - piston ring groove clearances
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2022, 08:42:37 AM »
that is not an option then....
thanks!

Online Tracksnblades1

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Re: CB400F 1977 engine rebuild - piston ring groove clearances
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2022, 09:10:57 AM »
that is not an option then....
thanks!

One could renew cylinder bore to accept
a yoshi 466 big bore kit, raise the compression,
send cylinder head to Mike to port, renew, and
install springs to suit the yoshi camshaft. 

Nick name the bike “ScramJet”
then when the other 400s are signing off
Yours would just be beginning to light..😁
« Last Edit: February 14, 2022, 09:25:56 AM by Tracksnblades1 »
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Offline berbecs

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Re: CB400F 1977 engine rebuild - piston ring groove clearances
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2022, 01:10:14 PM »
that is not an option then....
thanks!

One could renew cylinder bore to accept
a yoshi 466 big bore kit, raise the compression,
send cylinder head to Mike to port, renew, and
install springs to suit the yoshi camshaft. 

That would be an interesting journey, although it will remain a daydream for now .. maybe after the stock one is running :)

Nick name the bike “ScramJet”
then when the other 400s are signing off
Yours would just be beginning to light..😁

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB400F 1977 engine rebuild - piston ring groove clearances
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2022, 06:00:55 PM »
Well, I might say this:
About the camshaft: many of them will show wear in the area where the rocker foot contacts the cam lobe. This is entirely normal, but means it has lost a little bit of performance: it will NOT hurt the engine to put those parts back in and run it again if you cannot find another cam. It will work best if you put the same rockers back in the smae places where they were, so the cam and rockers will again run as they were. You can run it that way until you find another cam someday: I used to 'refurbish' these bikes this way for poor college students, who rode them many years afterward with just new rings installed and a light hone of the cylinders, everything else was left the same (except I would clean the valves and relpa them for good sealing).

The pistons: if you keep the same pistons and rings, you don't need to rehone the cylinders. If you install new rings you DO need to hone the cylinders for 2 reasons:
1. The new rings require a honed cylinder wall to break them in and seal, and
2. At the very top of the cylinders you will notice a slight unworn ring around the top (this is called "the ridge") where the piston rings did not travel. This 'ridge' is slightly lower than the travel of brand-new rings on those pistons, and can cause a mild crash that forces the top rings downward each time the piston rises. This unsettles the new ring and will not let it seal. So, "rehoning" of used cylinders in order to install new rings requires that you hone them enough to remove this 'ridge'. This usually takes 3-5 minutes of honing, stroking down-up-dwon-up in the bore the whole time, with a brand-new hone like the ones shown in your previous post, chucked into an electric drill. When you start to hone, you will see that the hone is not touching the cylinder walls in the area that is just below that top ring's "ridge", and this will become your guide to how long you must hone it to remove that ridge. As you hone it the un-honed area in this zone will become smaller and smaller: stop when the top ring's 'ridge mark' has been honed away. This will usually be about 0.001" of honing on most of the 350F/400F bores that I have done.

But - all this honing is also making more cylinder clearance. In the end, it will come out very close to the worn-out spec of 0.0012"+ clearance, so the new rings will not seal for very long, possibly 8,000-10,000 miles at best. This was/is typical of the "college kid rebuilds" I did so long ago to help my schoolmates ride through their college days.

If you go for a step-bore job, I can recommend the pistons from CrusinImage for a low-cost set, but you may also wish to find some MC brand, Honda brand, or RIK brand of piston rings to go with those pistons, as right now the rings being shipped with the CI pistons are not as good quality as before the pandemic. If you get pistons in 0.5mm oversize, get the same oversize rings. This makes a good rebuild if you cannot find Honda parts.
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