Topic: Tightening HD Head Nuts

[Ellz10]

My bike is a '77 K7, a pretty good amount of engine work done to it. So my question is this:

So I tightened all my cylinder studs the same torque spec (as per the specs from Kibblewhite), in the appropriate sequence and I've found that after I followed the correct sequence for tightening down my head nuts, most of the tips of the studs come thru to what I imagine is the correct spot, whilst some of the tips only go about 3/4 of the way thru. Is this a problem or is it acceptable? Should I buy thinner washers? They were all tightened to 22 ft lbs as per the instructions from Kibblewhite.

[Don R]

 I'd guess it's a case of the studs being screwed down further than the stud maker expected. What to do may depend on what, if any thread locker you used on the case end of the stud. If they are torqued down on red loctite, I would not try to back them out. The washers are hardened, it's kind of a jump ball what to do. 

[Ellz10]

I'd guess it's a case of the studs being screwed down further than the stud maker expected. What to do may depend on what, if any thread locker you used on the case end of the stud. If they are torqued down on red loctite, I would not try to back them out. The washers are hardened, it's kind of a jump ball what to do.

I was thinking about that too. At this point, I just worry about the nuts becoming loose. I was wondering if Kibblewhite or another HD Head Nut company makes a shorter HD Head Nut.

Honestly, I'll probably just leave them the way they are, and go back in after a couple hundred miles or more and check to see the torque spec. If they're still very close to 22 ft lbs, then I'll be reassured.

[PeWe]

Those nuts are higher than stock nuts. The collar is much thicker too.
The 18x2.3mm stock washer is needed.

[Ellz10]

Those nuts are higher than stock nuts. The collar is much thicker too.
The 18x2.3mm stock washer is needed.

Ohhh, I didn't even think to look and compare the two. I'm going to take a look in a bit.

So it's normal for them to look the way they do in the picture I attached, not going all the way thru?

I did reuse the stock washers, absolutely.

[corky]

I would not consider the ones on the right acceptable in my opinion.  What brand are the studs?  I am not sure how many threads go into the original bolt to compare with what you have.  I haven't seen them come up short like that before.

Thanks,
Daniel

[Ellz10]

I'm curious as to what would happen if I chose to forgo the washers? Or get thinner washers for the studs that come up short. Or just use regular stock nuts on the few that are coming up short?

[HondaMan]

Have you measured the thickness of those new nuts against the OEM nuts? Some of the K7 engines received the F2/3 nuts (enclosed domed heads) on certain studs, did yours come that way? The K7 engine doesn't need them, I suspect that Honda just didn't have the normal open-top nuts that day on those engines that got them.

Those new nuts look to have more threads than the OEM type, guessing from the picture.

[Ellz10]

Have you measured the thickness of those new nuts against the OEM nuts? Some of the K7 engines received the F2/3 nuts (enclosed domed heads) on certain studs, did yours come that way? The K7 engine doesn't need them, I suspect that Honda just didn't have the normal open-top nuts that day on those engines that got them.

Those new nuts look to have more threads than the OEM type, guessing from the picture.

Yes, these HD Nuts from Kibblewhite are 2.3mm longer/thicker than my oem ones. I loosened all of the nuts tonight after letting them set 24 hrs (in the correct sequence), and then re-torqued them. Some of the ones that came up short seemed to pull thru a tad more, which is interesting. I feel more comfortable with how they look now than I did last night. I will be checking tomorrow night for one last time to make sure their torque value didn't change after sitting for another 24 hours and if they haven't, then I'm going to continue on with the rebuild. I don't see any other option(s).

What's your take on this Mark; if the torque values don't change, is it safe to say I can continue?

Also, like I mentioned before, I will be going back in after several hundred miles to check the torque values and see if there are any changes. That IS something I should do, considering the circumstances, right? How many miles would you venture to say is sufficient before I go back in to check?

[johno]

So Eliza,
Im guessing that you followed the install instructions to a T ?, that being long thread to bottom case and short thread to top then tensioned to a max of 8ft/libs.  That is the normal way and it is not unusual for the studs to be at different heights, combined with the extra tall heavy duty nuts which makes it look nuts. BUT it is OK.    re pretensioning, a few heat cycles is all it takes then retention.
Now the best way !
Install the studs with a dab of lock tight on bottom and install so they are at the height you want and all the same ( except for the two short studs)
Let them dry for a couple of days then or even better while loctite is wet place on barrel and head , lightly tension the head nuts evenly to stabilise the studs angles and position , then let dry for couple of days.
Then after assembling engine etc normal tensioning to 22 ft/lbs, leave for a day then retension several times until no more creep on the nuts/stud.
If you do this multiple pretensioning until no nut creeping it saves doing a hottest and removing engine etc,
Relax Eliza

[Tracksnblades1]

^^^^^

The old Smokey Yunick way = the better way under the best way…😁

[MRieck]

So Eliza,
Im guessing that you followed the install instructions to a T ?, that being long thread to bottom case and short thread to top then tensioned to a max of 8ft/libs.  That is the normal way and it is not unusual for the studs to be at different heights, combined with the extra tall heavy duty nuts which makes it look nuts. BUT it is OK.    re pretensioning, a few heat cycles is all it takes then retention.
Now the best way !
Install the studs with a dab of lock tight on bottom and install so they are at the height you want and all the same ( except for the two short studs)
Let them dry for a couple of days then or even better while loctite is wet place on barrel and head , lightly tension the head nuts evenly to stabilise the studs angles and position , then let dry for couple of days.
Then after assembling engine etc normal tensioning to 22 ft/lbs, leave for a day then retension several times until no more creep on the nuts/stud.
If you do this multiple pretensioning until no nut creeping it saves doing a hottest and removing engine etc,
Relax Eliza

That's the way I do it.

[Ellz10]

So Eliza,
Im guessing that you followed the install instructions to a T ?, that being long thread to bottom case and short thread to top then tensioned to a max of 8ft/libs.  That is the normal way and it is not unusual for the studs to be at different heights, combined with the extra tall heavy duty nuts which makes it look nuts. BUT it is OK.    re pretensioning, a few heat cycles is all it takes then retention.
Now the best way !
Install the studs with a dab of lock tight on bottom and install so they are at the height you want and all the same ( except for the two short studs)
Let them dry for a couple of days then or even better while loctite is wet place on barrel and head , lightly tension the head nuts evenly to stabilise the studs angles and position , then let dry for couple of days.
Then after assembling engine etc normal tensioning to 22 ft/lbs, leave for a day then retension several times until no more creep on the nuts/stud.
If you do this multiple pretensioning until no nut creeping it saves doing a hottest and removing engine etc,
Relax Eliza

It's actually Zach lol. Ellz10 was my school login 15 years ago and it just stuck for usernames.

Yes, I followed the instructions as they were written. Just as you mentioned. I will MOST DEFINITELY be doing it the way you said, the best way!

^^^^^

The old Smokey Yunick way = the better way under the best way…😁

This. 

So Eliza,
Im guessing that you followed the install instructions to a T ?, that being long thread to bottom case and short thread to top then tensioned to a max of 8ft/libs.  That is the normal way and it is not unusual for the studs to be at different heights, combined with the extra tall heavy duty nuts which makes it look nuts. BUT it is OK.    re pretensioning, a few heat cycles is all it takes then retention.
Now the best way !
Install the studs with a dab of lock tight on bottom and install so they are at the height you want and all the same ( except for the two short studs)
Let them dry for a couple of days then or even better while loctite is wet place on barrel and head , lightly tension the head nuts evenly to stabilise the studs angles and position , then let dry for couple of days.
Then after assembling engine etc normal tensioning to 22 ft/lbs, leave for a day then retension several times until no more creep on the nuts/stud.
If you do this multiple pretensioning until no nut creeping it saves doing a hottest and removing engine etc,
Relax Eliza

That's the way I do it.

Very happy to have someone who seconds any particular process! Thank you!

[HondaMan]

Have you measured the thickness of those new nuts against the OEM nuts? Some of the K7 engines received the F2/3 nuts (enclosed domed heads) on certain studs, did yours come that way? The K7 engine doesn't need them, I suspect that Honda just didn't have the normal open-top nuts that day on those engines that got them.

Those new nuts look to have more threads than the OEM type, guessing from the picture.

Yes, these HD Nuts from Kibblewhite are 2.3mm longer/thicker than my oem ones. I loosened all of the nuts tonight after letting them set 24 hrs (in the correct sequence), and then re-torqued them. Some of the ones that came up short seemed to pull thru a tad more, which is interesting. I feel more comfortable with how they look now than I did last night. I will be checking tomorrow night for one last time to make sure their torque value didn't change after sitting for another 24 hours and if they haven't, then I'm going to continue on with the rebuild. I don't see any other option(s).

What's your take on this Mark; if the torque values don't change, is it safe to say I can continue?

Also, like I mentioned before, I will be going back in after several hundred miles to check the torque values and see if there are any changes. That IS something I should do, considering the circumstances, right? How many miles would you venture to say is sufficient before I go back in to check?

You shouldn't need to go back in after a run-in: the wait-overnight-then-retorque method is what I have used on all Honda (and Ford) engines since 1969. When you release and re-tighten them after the settling time, this destresses the gasket and the head-cylinder joint. When you consider that Honda never did this in production, these engines still did marvelously well despite that. For roadracing, it seemed to matter, though, in subtle ways - like, no oil leaks in a whole racing season, while others suffered them on many bikes.

Since the nuts are taller, that makes sense about them having some extra threads showing in their tops.

[Ellz10]

Have you measured the thickness of those new nuts against the OEM nuts? Some of the K7 engines received the F2/3 nuts (enclosed domed heads) on certain studs, did yours come that way? The K7 engine doesn't need them, I suspect that Honda just didn't have the normal open-top nuts that day on those engines that got them.

Those new nuts look to have more threads than the OEM type, guessing from the picture.

Yes, these HD Nuts from Kibblewhite are 2.3mm longer/thicker than my oem ones. I loosened all of the nuts tonight after letting them set 24 hrs (in the correct sequence), and then re-torqued them. Some of the ones that came up short seemed to pull thru a tad more, which is interesting. I feel more comfortable with how they look now than I did last night. I will be checking tomorrow night for one last time to make sure their torque value didn't change after sitting for another 24 hours and if they haven't, then I'm going to continue on with the rebuild. I don't see any other option(s).

What's your take on this Mark; if the torque values don't change, is it safe to say I can continue?

Also, like I mentioned before, I will be going back in after several hundred miles to check the torque values and see if there are any changes. That IS something I should do, considering the circumstances, right? How many miles would you venture to say is sufficient before I go back in to check?

You shouldn't need to go back in after a run-in: the wait-overnight-then-retorque method is what I have used on all Honda (and Ford) engines since 1969. When you release and re-tighten them after the settling time, this destresses the gasket and the head-cylinder joint. When you consider that Honda never did this in production, these engines still did marvelously well despite that. For roadracing, it seemed to matter, though, in subtle ways - like, no oil leaks in a whole racing season, while others suffered them on many bikes.

Since the nuts are taller, that makes sense about them having some extra threads showing in their tops.

Well then I should be all set! Only thing to do now is sit back and (hopefully) enjoy a leak-free top and bottom end 

[Tracksnblades1]

So Eliza,
Im guessing that you followed the install instructions to a T ?, that being long thread to bottom case and short thread to top then tensioned to a max of 8ft/libs.  That is the normal way and it is not unusual for the studs to be at different heights, combined with the extra tall heavy duty nuts which makes it look nuts. BUT it is OK.    re pretensioning, a few heat cycles is all it takes then retention.


⭐️⭐️ Now the best way !. ⭐️⭐️


Install the studs with a dab of lock tight on bottom and install so they are at the height you want and all the same ( except for the two short studs)
Let them dry for a couple of days then or           ⭐️⭐️   even better while loctite is wet place on barrel and head , lightly tension the head nuts evenly to stabilise the studs angles and position , then let dry for couple of days.  ⭐️⭐️

Then after assembling engine etc normal tensioning to 22 ft/lbs, leave for a day then retension several times until no more creep on the nuts/stud.
If you do this multiple pretensioning until no nut creeping it saves doing a hottest and removing engine etc,
Relax Eliza

It's actually Zach lol. Ellz10 was my school login 15 years ago and it just stuck for usernames.

Yes, I followed the instructions as they were written. Just as you mentioned. I will MOST DEFINITELY be doing it the way you said, the best way!

^^^^^

The old Smokey Yunick way = the better way under the best way…😁

This. 

So Eliza,
Im guessing that you followed the install instructions to a T ?, that being long thread to bottom case and short thread to top then tensioned to a max of 8ft/libs.  That is the normal way and it is not unusual for the studs to be at different heights, combined with the extra tall heavy duty nuts which makes it look nuts. BUT it is OK.    re pretensioning, a few heat cycles is all it takes then retention.
Now the best way !
Install the studs with a dab of lock tight on bottom and install so they are at the height you want and all the same ( except for the two short studs)
Let them dry for a couple of days then or even better while loctite is wet place on barrel and head , lightly tension the head nuts evenly to stabilise the studs angles and position , then let dry for couple of days.
Then after assembling engine etc normal tensioning to 22 ft/lbs, leave for a day then retension several times until no more creep on the nuts/stud.
If you do this multiple pretensioning until no nut creeping it saves doing a hottest and removing engine etc,
Relax Eliza

That's the way I do it.

Very happy to have someone who seconds any particular process! Thank you!

Sorry if it’s confusing. The ^^^^ are a quick way to agree with the johno’s post above my earlier post.
Under Johno’s heading of bolderized font Now the Best Way and after  “or even better” in the second sentence.  The legendary Smokey Yunick wrote of and published that procedure 30+ years ago.. Look ^^ above for ⭐️⭐️.

[johno]

I think most of us older folk probably learnt that from Smokey.....and a lot of other things 

[Alan F.]

Last time I was dragged into one of those box box- book stores I was surprised to find that the was no longer a Transportation section. No Engine Building books, Harley Davidson books or even steam train books anymore. You can find them online if you want them, but they're just not out there like they used to be.