Topic: When Installing a Performance Cam

[Ellz10]

Aside from following the written installation instructions from the manufacturer of the cam I have (CX-11 from WebCam Racing), I'm curious if there are any other special steps or things I could and/or should do when installing this performance cam as opposed to if I were just reinstalling my original stock cam?

Thanks!

- Zach

[HondaMan]

My experience with Webcams has been...less than stellar. You will probably need a slotted cam sprocket (sometimes Ken has them at CycleX, or 4into1.com sometimes has them) or else slot yours so that you can degree-in the cam. While Honda's spec for the cam requires checking at intake lobe#1, Webcam has sometimes spec'd using another lobe, so check their instructions. I have yet to see a Webcam that was "on time" using the sprocket bolt holes they provide. You should have received a spec sheet with the cam, which will tell you where the intake and exhaust openings are supposed to be, and if they don't provide the "at lift" value in their spec (like maybe 0.006" intake, etc.) use their recommend valve clearance value for the intake and exhaust.

[MRieck]

 It doesn't matter what lobe you measure off of. I measure with the lash....not at Zero lash. Megacycle measures at .040....Web at .050. None of it really matters as you are looking for a lobe center. Web's tend to want to be "split". In other words the opening and closing numbers are pretty much the same for the intake and exhaust cams. that means the intake opening is the same number (though one occurs before BTDC and the other ATDC). 100 lobe centers are common on Webs.

[Ellz10]

My experience with Webcams has been...less than stellar. You will probably need a slotted cam sprocket (sometimes Ken has them at CycleX, or 4into1.com sometimes has them) or else slot yours so that you can degree-in the cam. While Honda's spec for the cam requires checking at intake lobe#1, Webcam has sometimes spec'd using another lobe, so check their instructions. I have yet to see a Webcam that was "on time" using the sprocket bolt holes they provide. You should have received a spec sheet with the cam, which will tell you where the intake and exhaust openings are supposed to be, and if they don't provide the "at lift" value in their spec (like maybe 0.006" intake, etc.) use their recommend valve clearance value for the intake and exhaust.

It doesn't matter what lobe you measure off of. I measure with the lash....not at Zero lash. Megacycle measures at .040....Web at .050. None of it really matters as you are looking for a lobe center. Web's tend to want to be "split". In other words the opening and closing numbers are pretty much the same for the intake and exhaust cams. that means the intake opening is the same number (though one occurs before BTDC and the other ATDC). 100 lobe centers are common on Webs.

This is the one he sold me with the cam.

So I'm going to sound very dumb, but it's very hard for me to understand things sometimes without a step by step or watching it being done. So forgive my idiocy when I say that I have no idea how to go about measuring any of the things you guys are talking about nor what the instructions are telling me. I never checked piston to cylinder head clearance or piston to intake/exhaust valve clearance, ect - not because I can't do it, I just don't seem to understand how to do it without an in-depth explanation (even if it's simple).

However I will say that alot of, if not all, of these parts were selected by Ken after talking to me about it and are all meant to flow and be in sync with eachother. He also returned my entire head back to me fully set up/put together with everything checked and spec'd correctly.

Not to be confused with being a total moron, I do understand how to measure and mic tolerances. For example, I plastigaged my crank and mic'd them, used the telescopic bore gauge to measure (with the top caps on) what the inside of the cam towers were and cross referenced it to make sure it was within spec for the new cam, ect.

[MRieck]

My experience with Webcams has been...less than stellar. You will probably need a slotted cam sprocket (sometimes Ken has them at CycleX, or 4into1.com sometimes has them) or else slot yours so that you can degree-in the cam. While Honda's spec for the cam requires checking at intake lobe#1, Webcam has sometimes spec'd using another lobe, so check their instructions. I have yet to see a Webcam that was "on time" using the sprocket bolt holes they provide. You should have received a spec sheet with the cam, which will tell you where the intake and exhaust openings are supposed to be, and if they don't provide the "at lift" value in their spec (like maybe 0.006" intake, etc.) use their recommend valve clearance value for the intake and exhaust.

It doesn't matter what lobe you measure off of. I measure with the lash....not at Zero lash. Megacycle measures at .040....Web at .050. None of it really matters as you are looking for a lobe center. Web's tend to want to be "split". In other words the opening and closing numbers are pretty much the same for the intake and exhaust cams. that means the intake opening is the same number (though one occurs before BTDC and the other ATDC). 100 lobe centers are common on Webs.

This is the one he sold me with the cam.

So I'm going to sound very dumb, but it's very hard for me to understand things sometimes without a step by step or watching it being done. So forgive my idiocy when I say that I have no idea how to go about measuring any of the things you guys are talking about nor what the instructions are telling me. I never checked piston to cylinder head clearance or piston to intake/exhaust valve clearance, ect - not because I can't do it, I just don't seem to understand how to do it without an in-depth explanation (even if it's simple).

However I will say that alot of, if not all, of these parts were selected by Ken after talking to me about it and are all meant to flow and be in sync with eachother. He also returned my entire head back to me fully set up/put together with everything checked and spec'd correctly.

Not to be confused with being a total moron, I do understand how to measure and mic tolerances. For example, I plastigaged my crank and mic'd them, used the telescopic bore gauge to measure (with the top caps on) what the inside of the cam towers were and cross referenced it to make sure it was within spec for the new cam, ect.

I apologize for coming off as a know it all....I guess I've just done it too many times. You are not an idiot. My wife would argue I am sometimes.  That's the correct cam sprocket. Forget about measuring the cam towers....it is a noble idea but unless the rocker arms shafts are bouncing around in the bores just put it together.. You need a tool to find TDC and then you have to be careful you don't bend a valve using it....ask Jerry RX man about that.

[Ellz10]

My experience with Webcams has been...less than stellar. You will probably need a slotted cam sprocket (sometimes Ken has them at CycleX, or 4into1.com sometimes has them) or else slot yours so that you can degree-in the cam. While Honda's spec for the cam requires checking at intake lobe#1, Webcam has sometimes spec'd using another lobe, so check their instructions. I have yet to see a Webcam that was "on time" using the sprocket bolt holes they provide. You should have received a spec sheet with the cam, which will tell you where the intake and exhaust openings are supposed to be, and if they don't provide the "at lift" value in their spec (like maybe 0.006" intake, etc.) use their recommend valve clearance value for the intake and exhaust.

It doesn't matter what lobe you measure off of. I measure with the lash....not at Zero lash. Megacycle measures at .040....Web at .050. None of it really matters as you are looking for a lobe center. Web's tend to want to be "split". In other words the opening and closing numbers are pretty much the same for the intake and exhaust cams. that means the intake opening is the same number (though one occurs before BTDC and the other ATDC). 100 lobe centers are common on Webs.

This is the one he sold me with the cam.

So I'm going to sound very dumb, but it's very hard for me to understand things sometimes without a step by step or watching it being done. So forgive my idiocy when I say that I have no idea how to go about measuring any of the things you guys are talking about nor what the instructions are telling me. I never checked piston to cylinder head clearance or piston to intake/exhaust valve clearance, ect - not because I can't do it, I just don't seem to understand how to do it without an in-depth explanation (even if it's simple).

However I will say that alot of, if not all, of these parts were selected by Ken after talking to me about it and are all meant to flow and be in sync with eachother. He also returned my entire head back to me fully set up/put together with everything checked and spec'd correctly.

Not to be confused with being a total moron, I do understand how to measure and mic tolerances. For example, I plastigaged my crank and mic'd them, used the telescopic bore gauge to measure (with the top caps on) what the inside of the cam towers were and cross referenced it to make sure it was within spec for the new cam, ect.

I apologize for coming off as a know it all....I guess I've just done it too many times. You are not an idiot. My wife would argue I am sometimes.  That's the correct cam sprocket. Forget about measuring the cam towers....it is a noble idea but unless the rocker arms shafts are bouncing around in the bores just put it together.. You need a tool to find TDC and then you have to be careful you don't bend a valve using it....ask Jerry RX man about that.

Oh nooo! You didn't come off that way at all! I just wanted to help you guys understand how my mind works and how it's difficult for me sometimes to understand something if it's not an in-depth or step by step explanation!

I bought this at the beginning based on something I read. Dial indicator? Is this the tool you mean or do I need something else to measure TDC? If not this, then what kind of tool?


Also, in the picture I attached in my last reply, the picture of the valve timing information, can you please explain that to me? Like explain it in its entirety, because while I understand the words, im lost as to how it functions and how its measured and all of it 

[Tracksnblades1]

Ellz10,
Nobody knows your experience. Cut yourself some slack. Idiots don’t ask for help.
 
Google “How to degree a camshaft”. Find a video that you like and you can easily follow along. Try to learn the terminology . Lobe center, lobe separation, most of these terms are ground in the cam and you can’t change it. The indicator you have can find TDC. A lot of builders like the positive stop method and use their degree wheel to indicate true TDC. Like mentioned most find the lobe center and adjust it to the cam card in degrees before TDC or after depending which lobe you’re set up on IN or EX.
Some builders like to advance it a bit when it’s chain driven to offset the initial chain break in. Chains only stretch and get longer which retards the cam. Some builders like to check valve opening and closing degrees (duration) against the cam card . Incorrect Lash and or checking clearances can have you chasing your tail the first time around. Especially if your ever sent the wrong cam card for the delivered camshaft. You’re gasket thicknesses, on this type of engine, are in the timing equation too. Try to use gaskets or shims that simulate your new gaskets compressed thicknesses..

Jump in. It’s really not as complicated as it seems.
  I personally don’t initially like using all the rocker arms or heavy valve springs until after initial piston to valve clearances and total lift at lash are recorded.

[dragracer]

Schnitz Racing used to have a few videos they sold explaining cam degreeing" based upon the old Dale Walker videos. I'd suggest you buy the Dale Walker cam degree video myself. Also you can Google Tombo, Tommy Bolton. He has you tube videos on degreeing cams for a Busa but the principle is the same.  Even car cam degree videos could be helpful fron you tube.

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

LMAO!    Mike got me on that.

Yeah, you don't want to be asking yourself why is this puffing out the intake and has no compression LOL

[Ellz10]

This is just so frustrating.  I can't find a single video of someone degreeing a cam on a motorcycle and I know you said watching car cam degreeing videos would work, but I'm just not getting it. All these people are using degree wheels and piston stops and I don't have those. Do I need them if I'm using a dial indicator? Videos for all the valve timing information isn't helpful at all either. In this day and age, it shouldn't be hard to find instructional videos of these things being done. Heck, I'll pay for them if I have to.


I just want to understand how to do these things, in layman's terms. Once I understand how it's done, I'm good to go. I adapt quickly.

[Don R]

 I think I spent two weeks learning and checking my KH/F cam. I did buy a degree wheel and adapted it to the flywheel side. I already had a dial indicator and apparently got lucky using a piston stop that I made myself.

[Ellz10]

I think I spent two weeks learning and checking my KH/F cam. I did buy a degree wheel and adapted it to the flywheel side. I already had a dial indicator and apparently got lucky using a piston stop that I made myself.

Did you use your dial indicator to measure valve to piston clearance as well?

[Don R]

  I did, but apparently left them a little close because while having a little too much fun a couple weeks later it tagged a valve. I had not used new springs and retainers.

[Tracksnblades1]

Ellz10,

I’m reading you may be a Kinesthetic/Visual type learner. (Hands on, by example)
If I read correctly, you’re probably quick to pickup a new task or skill sets by performing it yourself
maybe while being observed by someone with the desired skill set…?

If so, perhaps a family member, friend, friend of a friend, local drag racer, etc, can provide you with some
hands on instruction.  Degreeing a 4 stroke is the same principle, regardless of cylinder numbers and where the cam is located or how it’s driven..

The dead stop method is considered the most accurate. By eliminating any dial indicator set up or reading errors..

[Alan F.]

This is just so frustrating.  I can't find a single video of someone degreeing a cam on a motorcycle and I know you said watching car cam degreeing videos would work, but I'm just not getting it. All these people are using degree wheels and piston stops and I don't have those. Do I need them if I'm using a dial indicator? Videos for all the valve timing information isn't helpful at all either. In this day and age, it shouldn't be hard to find instructional videos of these things being done. Heck, I'll pay for them if I have to.


I just want to understand how to do these things, in layman's terms. Once I understand how it's done, I'm good to go. I adapt quickly.

Let's go step by step with the tools you have. This video the guy is using a dial indicator with a magnetic base. Yes you'll have your cylinder head on but the principle is the same, set up your dial indicator and stick it through the #1 spark plug hole.

[Tracksnblades1]

Or for finding True TDC..

I believe at the very least, with your indicator, you’ll need a degree wheel to accurately find “True TDC” and to “degree” your camshaft…

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjG-8K9gIX3AhWPXM0KHYNLBk0QwqsBegQIBRAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DTKTNKGCeOkc&usg=AOvVaw0U8Dxx1EhoKVMSFNNHQ2xK

[Ellz10]

So in that video the guy is measuring valve to piston clearance or he's finding true TDC?

So my indicator dial isn't long enough to reach into the #1 spark plug hole where the piston comes up at the top. So should I just go buy a longer dial?

I'm going to grab a degree wheel later from my auto parts store.

So my setup is correct thus far though, right? Parallel cam with the notch up while at "T" for 1-4.

Ellz10,

I’m reading you may be a Kinesthetic/Visual type learner. (Hands on, by example)
If I read correctly, you’re probably quick to pickup a new task or skill sets by performing it yourself
maybe while being observed by someone with the desired skill set…?

If so, perhaps a family member, friend, friend of a friend, local drag racer, etc, can provide you with some
hands on instruction.  Degreeing a 4 stroke is the same principle, regardless of cylinder numbers and where the cam is located or how it’s driven..

The dead stop method is considered the most accurate. By eliminating any dial indicator set up or reading errors..

I'll try asking but I'm not sure how far I'll get 

[Alan F.]

Some dial calipers indicators have tips that unscrew and longer tips can be added. Grizzly has the long tip for under $3 but I couldn't tell if it'd fit your dial indicator.

[Ellz10]

Some dial calipers indicators have tips that unscrew and longer tips can be added. Grizzly has the long tip for under $3 but I couldn't tell if it'd fit your dial indicator.

Oh I didn't know that. I'll see if mine unscrews and becomes longer when I get home!

Any input on the other stuff I mentioned/asked?

[Tracksnblades1]

So in that video the guy is measuring valve to piston clearance or he's finding true TDC?

So my indicator dial isn't long enough to reach into the #1 spark plug hole where the piston comes up at the top. So should I just go buy a longer dial?

I'm going to grab a degree wheel later from my auto parts store.

So my setup is correct thus far though, right? Parallel cam with the notch up while at "T" for 1-4.

Ellz10,

I’m reading you may be a Kinesthetic/Visual type learner. (Hands on, by example)
If I read correctly, you’re probably quick to pickup a new task or skill sets by performing it yourself
maybe while being observed by someone with the desired skill set…?

If so, perhaps a family member, friend, friend of a friend, local drag racer, etc, can provide you with some
hands on instruction.  Degreeing a 4 stroke is the same principle, regardless of cylinder numbers and where the cam is located or how it’s driven..

The dead stop method is considered the most accurate. By eliminating any dial indicator set up or reading errors..

I'll try asking but I'm not sure how far I'll get 

Looking good…

The link I posted was for finding true TDC on a scooter engine. Where the individual was showing up to a 4-5 degree error compared to using indicated top of piston travel only vs true TDC indicated on the degree wheel.

As Alan wrote extensions are available for your dial indicator.

There are a couple ways to check for piston to valve clearance one is calculated. I prefer direct measurements.
I like to find true TDC and adjust degree wheel to indicate zero. Degree the installed and driven cam to the cam card specs.
With a weak spring on your valve, set your indicator on its retainer. At TDC during valve overlap with the cam at partial overlap lift manually push the valve stem down not disturbing the retainer or dial indicator until valve is stopped by piston.

(Warning if you have very generous piston to valve clearances or your TDC is in error,  you can damage some valve seals using this method with out removing the seals)

….Record the distance. Repeat process from 15 degrees BTDC to 15ATDC looking for the least amount of clearance between piston and valve. Record measurements and start over for exhaust valve. Repeat over on every valve if you want to know for sure you won’t tap a piston when you miss a shift. Valve and valve seats will never be machined perfect at the same depth or installed heights. Just like your cam shaft, rocker arm ratios, will not be ground or machined perfect either. This is the process you're in when you choose High Performance..

. Don’t give up. If this is your first go at this, try to find a gear head that’ll help you. Most of us has had an uncle or granddad looking over shoulder asking us the right question just before we were going to f*$* up..

Carry On…😁

[Ellz10]

Some dial calipers indicators have tips that unscrew and longer tips can be added. Grizzly has the long tip for under $3 but I couldn't tell if it'd fit your dial indicator.

I tried googling for the Grizzly 3" but I can't seem to find it. Can you post the link where you found it? Cuz if not or if it doesn't fit then I'm just going to grab a set off Amazon for like $20 - I'm not sure if I need metric or standard?

So in that video the guy is measuring valve to piston clearance or he's finding true TDC?

So my indicator dial isn't long enough to reach into the #1 spark plug hole where the piston comes up at the top. So should I just go buy a longer dial?

I'm going to grab a degree wheel later from my auto parts store.

So my setup is correct thus far though, right? Parallel cam with the notch up while at "T" for 1-4.

Ellz10,

I’m reading you may be a Kinesthetic/Visual type learner. (Hands on, by example)
If I read correctly, you’re probably quick to pickup a new task or skill sets by performing it yourself
maybe while being observed by someone with the desired skill set…?

If so, perhaps a family member, friend, friend of a friend, local drag racer, etc, can provide you with some
hands on instruction.  Degreeing a 4 stroke is the same principle, regardless of cylinder numbers and where the cam is located or how it’s driven..

The dead stop method is considered the most accurate. By eliminating any dial indicator set up or reading errors..

I'll try asking but I'm not sure how far I'll get 

Looking good…

The link I posted was for finding true TDC on a scooter engine. Where the individual was showing up to a 4-5 degree error compared to using indicated top of piston travel only vs true TDC indicated on the degree wheel.

As Alan wrote extensions are available for your dial indicator.

There are a couple ways to check for piston to valve clearance one is calculated. I prefer direct measurements.
I like to find true TDC and adjust degree wheel to indicate zero. Degree the installed and driven cam to the cam card specs.
With a weak spring on your valve, set your indicator on its retainer. At TDC during valve overlap with the cam at partial overlap lift manually push the valve stem down not disturbing the retainer or dial indicator until valve is stopped by piston.

(Warning if you have very generous piston to valve clearances or your TDC is in error,  you can damage some valve seals using this method with out removing the seals)

….Record the distance. Repeat process from 15 degrees BTDC to 15ATDC looking for the least amount of clearance between piston and valve. Record measurements and start over for exhaust valve. Repeat over on every valve if you want to know for sure you won’t tap a piston when you miss a shift. Valve and valve seats will never be machined perfect at the same depth or installed heights. Just like your cam shaft, rocker arm ratios, will not be ground or machined perfect either. This is the process you're in when you choose High Performance..

. Don’t give up. If this is your first go at this, try to find a gear head that’ll help you. Most of us has had an uncle or granddad looking over shoulder asking us the right question just before we were going to f*$* up..

Carry On…😁

I'm going to shoot you a pm back here soon!





So this is what I'm understanding so far. I bought this degree wheel, the center is 6mm. I'm going to mount it on the advance side. Then I bought this piston stop tool 12mm. So should I insert the piston stop tool into spark plug #4 and then put my dial indicator in spark plug #1?

[Alan F.]

There are quite a few on Amazon, I'd go with this one:
https://www.amazon.com/Anytime-Tools-Digital-Indicator-Extension/dp/B01521ZX7Q/ref=mp_s_a_1_11?crid=3IZ0DXEI61MU2&keywords=dial+indicator+tip+long&qid=1649478710&sprefix=dial+indicator+tip+long%2Caps%2C129&sr=8-11

The item I mentioned before was tough to find so I looked it up in my browser history and it turns out to be a carbide scriber tip, sorry about that.

[Ellz10]

There are quite a few on Amazon, I'd go with this one:
https://www.amazon.com/Anytime-Tools-Digital-Indicator-Extension/dp/B01521ZX7Q/ref=mp_s_a_1_11?crid=3IZ0DXEI61MU2&keywords=dial+indicator+tip+long&qid=1649478710&sprefix=dial+indicator+tip+long%2Caps%2C129&sr=8-11

The item I mentioned before was tough to find so I looked it up in my browser history and it turns out to be a carbide scriber tip, sorry about that.

That's the exact one I was going to go with.

[Ellz10]

You know at this point I'm just ready to pay someone to send me a step-by-step video of finding TDC and a video of measuring valve to piston clearance using the degree wheel, piston stop tool, dial indicator. Not everyone has a top end open though 

[Tracksnblades1]

You know at this point I'm just ready to pay someone to send me a step-by-step video of finding TDC and a video of measuring valve to piston clearance using the degree wheel, piston stop tool, dial indicator. Not everyone has a top end open though 

Stick with it…
You have what you need now.

You’ll only need to use the positive stop or the dial indicator with an extended tip.
not both at the same time.
You will only need one of them in the spark plug hole.
 
Use plug hole #1 so it’s not further confusing.
Pick whether your going to use the indicator or dead stop method.
I think the dead stop would be easier since it takes indicator set up and read errors out of the process.
As well as wondering how the tip of the indicator reacts to valve relief, piston domes, or spark plug hole angles.
Review the appropriate video by the individual in the link I posted.
He’s made a video using the indicator and another one using the dead stop.
Follow along or FaceTime a member when your set up.

Compartmentalize and only concentrate on finding #1 True TDC first. Don’t worry about #4, although it should be the same excepting machining tolerances..Don’t worry about nothing else until you can accurately determine #1 True TDC and can repeat the results to verify it.

Hang in there