Author Topic: 836 kit or not? That is the question.  (Read 2250 times)

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Offline samfig

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836 kit or not? That is the question.
« on: April 18, 2022, 08:20:45 PM »
Hey, all.
*Disclaimer* I have a passing knowledge of engine work but trust the mechanics doing the work on the bike.
Here is what's up:
I've got a 73' CB750 with a little over 11k miles on it that I've had for about nine years now.  I put around 800 - 1k miles on it a summer and only ride it in nice weather.  The bike isn't a show queen but it's relatively nice and I'm returning it back to stock (only some minor cosmetic things beed to be corrected).  As a result of the original owner letting it sit for so long the head gasket dried out and the bike weeps oil.  I've taken the bike to a very reputable mechanic for these old bikes and I just got a call from the mechanic stating that I may want to do the 836 kit while they're doing this other work on the bike.
The overall rationale was that since they're doing the head gasket they may as well dig a bit deeper and look over / freshen up other bits while the engine is out and the bike is open.  He mentioned cam tensioner, pulleys and some other stuff.
I agree with all that.
What I am unsure about are the following:
1.  Is there a need to go to an 836 kit?  As in, if they do all this work it needs to happen as a result of the work?  Or is this something that people tend to do but is not necessary?
2.  In wanting to return the bike back to original, even though it's not a concourse level bike or anything, does the bike lose value in purist communities if it's got an 836 kit?

I've had the bike for 9 years now and I don't ride fast / have any desire to go faster or quicker than it already does.   Any advice or guidance on the topic would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Sam
-1973 CB750

Offline Don R

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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2022, 08:56:00 PM »
 You might consider a mild clean up bore, A few of us have used the ebay first or second piston kits with no problems. They aren't as expensive as the bigger bores.
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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2022, 09:40:39 PM »
How bad are the gaskets weeping oil? If it's only minor, and not covering your leg with oil like a BSA, I would leave it alone. ;) A bike with only 11K miles shouldn't need a re-bore, and the only reason to go to 836 would be to increase performance, which isn't your priority.
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Offline krusty

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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2022, 12:46:49 AM »
How bad are the gaskets weeping oil? If it's only minor, and not covering your leg with oil like a BSA, I would leave it alone. ;) A bike with only 11K miles shouldn't need a re-bore, and the only reason to go to 836 would be to increase performance, which isn't your priority.
Agreed.
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Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2022, 04:38:10 AM »
Some mechanics just have problems reassembling with used parts.
The labor is already incurred to get to the cam chain tensioner and gaskets..
Now do you clean the carbon out of all the piston’s ring lands or just leave it dirty.  Put it back together with used
Pistons, used rings, used piston pins…?  And be expected to warranty like new parts…?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2022, 04:40:31 AM by Tracksnblades1 »
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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2022, 06:10:23 AM »
11k?...i doubt you need anything more than a re-torque
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline MauiK3

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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2022, 07:57:47 AM »
I think first over pistons would be beneficial with the re-bore to correct any error introduced by the settling casting
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Offline Stev-o

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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2022, 08:41:30 AM »
A bike with only 11K miles shouldn't need a re-bore, and the only reason to go to 836 would be to increase performance, which isn't your priority.

+1, agreed.  Rather than a new pistons, rings and rebore [which can get pricey] I would have the head checked and possibly the valves lapped if leaking.
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline samfig

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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2022, 08:57:07 AM »
A bike with only 11K miles shouldn't need a re-bore, and the only reason to go to 836 would be to increase performance, which isn't your priority.

+1, agreed.  Rather than a new pistons, rings and rebore [which can get pricey] I would have the head checked and possibly the valves lapped if leaking.

Not knowing much about how this all works, it seems to me like once it's open they would be able to determine all that, no?  If the goal is to keep what's good, clean up or change what's needed / makes sense while you've got it open, how would you phrase that so it doesn't go the 836 route?

-1973 CB750

Offline Stev-o

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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2022, 09:03:09 AM »
A bike with only 11K miles shouldn't need a re-bore, and the only reason to go to 836 would be to increase performance, which isn't your priority.

+1, agreed.  Rather than a new pistons, rings and rebore [which can get pricey] I would have the head checked and possibly the valves lapped if leaking.

Not knowing much about how this all works, it seems to me like once it's open they would be able to determine all that, no?  If the goal is to keep what's good, clean up or change what's needed / makes sense while you've got it open, how would you phrase that so it doesn't go the 836 route?



Have the cylinders been removed?  If no, then there really not a way to determine what is needed as far as an 836 kit [unless the motor suffered major damage].  On my bikes, once the engine is disassembled, the bores were measured by a machinist to determine if new rings or a rebore was needed.  As a few guys mentioned, we doubt you need an 836 kit.  The shop may be taking you for a ride...
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline PeWe

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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2022, 11:44:50 AM »
Bikes is almost new at 11k miles.
Another thing if it has been stored so bores have rusted deep so they must be rebored.

If that is the case Cruzinimage.net sell low priced piston kits  +0.50, 1.0mm over. Piston/bore total clearance around 0.02mm.

If bores are OK maybe a quick light hone if cylinder will go off if replacing can chain tensioner.
Tighten the head nuts, eventually reseal the rubber coins  on head under the  cam holders.

I get the impression that the shop has an 836 kit on the shelf they want to sell.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2022, 09:24:41 PM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
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Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Dunk

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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2022, 05:51:46 PM »
If you don't care about how fast is it or getting more power, there's no reason for an 836. The only reason to consider it is the marginal additional cost if the bores are worn (taper) and you need oversize pistons on a fresh bore. At 11k miles I doubt that's the case.

Beyond that, be sure it's actually the head gasket leaking and not the pucks under the cam towers. If there is no oil above the head gasket then it's not the pucks, but the most common leaking part of these bikes in my experience is the rubber pucks under the cam towers. Typically this will result in oil on the 3rd fin from the top on the head (and everywhere below). I just did pucks on one of my bikes, less than a decade after it was gone through by PO (and about a year after I pulled the engine to fix a loose cam sprocket, retorquing the head and likely disturbing the seal of the pucks). It's my daily rider so I wanted to keep it clean and not leaky. Pulled it one Friday when I had friends over, did the work one or two days that week, and installed it the following Friday. It's not a huge job, just need an extra pair of hands to pull the engine and install it.

My K1 restored in 2013 with about 10k miles is now leaking form the pucks and weeping from the base gasket... This one will get pucks and some sort of big bore kit somewhere between 836 and 1026. I couldn't justify anything more than a hone and new rings when I restored it since the bores were in such good condition, but I like to ride fast and scrape pegs so it'll get more power when it's apart to fix leaks.

Offline beemerbum

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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2022, 09:24:04 PM »
 Seems to me, that unless there is a specific reason, such as a drag racing class or AHRMA racing, it makes no sense to use big bore kits to gain more power from a CB 750 motor intended for the street. Wasn't this the first "super bike" that made all other contemporaries such as Triumphs  BSA's and Harley's look gutless in comparison? It had its glorious day. If you like to go fast and scrape pegs, any of the recent 600 sport bikes will outperform a bored out 1969-1978 Honda CB 750 with more power, better handling and superior brakes. But then, we are free to do as we wish as our great country allows.

Offline Dunk

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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2022, 12:10:57 PM »
For me, anything recent or modern is not an option. My criteria for motorcycles is kick start and air cooled. I like simple, reliable vehicles that are easy to maintain. I value function, as well as the beauty that 70s or older bikes have. A modern 600 sport bike will not fit the bill, even into the 80s many motorcycles became more difficult to service and less reliable particularly as kick starts disappeared. Dirt bikes are an exception, I have a couple 80s dual sports that are comparable to 70s street bikes and strike me as the best era for maximum HP at the lowest weight with modern suspension that is easily upgraded.

My sentiment for what qualifies a four wheeled vehicle as serviceable is similar: Vent windows, floor vents, manual windows, carburetor or mechanical fuel injection. This limits options to 60s and 70s, or into the 80s for trucks (similar to dirt bikes, trucks took another decade to get the ugly and difficult to service treatment that dirt bikes got).

Different strokes for different folks and all, but that being said I stick to vehicles that I believe I'd be happy to use for the rest of my life. A modern 600 sport bike would surely be fun to ride now and again but I'd want to be rid of it before it needed any major servicing (that would be considered minor servicing on an older model). I suppose a new disposable bike could be useful for winters when there is often salt on the roads, but it's more cost effective to just maintain what you've got than replace new expensive stuff frequently.

Offline samfig

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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2022, 12:57:36 PM »
All great points and I really appreciate the collective feedback.  Here are some pictures of why I took the bike in to get a new gasket in.  Let me know what sorts of questions I should ask based on the pictures (the bike is already there and the engine is about to come out).
-Sam
-1973 CB750

Offline Stev-o

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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2022, 01:32:10 PM »
Do you know what "pucks" are?  You need to be sure they install the correct size.

Here is a little info...

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=170136.0

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=83114.0
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline Dunk

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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2022, 06:27:09 PM »
Pucks typically leave oil higher when leaking...

Offline samfig

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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2022, 08:05:27 PM »
I was / am unaware of the puck situation so thanks for bringing that to light.
I'll be talking to the mechanic tomorrow and will tell them no 836 since I'm not interested in any sort of performance gains.  Apart from that, just want them to make sure it doesn't leak and clean things / refurbish / replace what makes sense while they're there.  I don't plan on selling the bike and just want to enjoy it. 
Can y'all think of a different, perhaps better, way I should frame it?
-1973 CB750

Offline PeWe

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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2022, 01:24:31 AM »
Remove spark plugs so you can put a finger inside those cavities and feel for oil.

Leaking pucks will be seen inside there, the roof and further spread by the wind.

A low mile bike will keep the value when keeping it stock.
It is a special feeling when riding a stocker with the special sounding 4-4.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Stev-o

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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2022, 07:51:26 AM »
BTW - with the engine out, this would be a good time for a thorough cleaning and respray of the engine.
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline MauiK3

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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2022, 07:54:56 AM »
Even though it has low miles, the materials in the cam chain tensioner and primary tensioner are old and perhaps hardened with age. Even the cam chain.
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2022, 08:02:10 AM »
A bike with only 11K miles shouldn't need a re-bore, and the only reason to go to 836 would be to increase performance, which isn't your priority.

+1, agreed.  Rather than a new pistons, rings and rebore [which can get pricey] I would have the head checked and possibly the valves lapped if leaking.

And spend the big bore money on head porting instead
« Last Edit: April 22, 2022, 08:29:28 AM by Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er »
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Offline Dunk

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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2022, 04:07:01 PM »
I was / am unaware of the puck situation so thanks for bringing that to light.
I'll be talking to the mechanic tomorrow and will tell them no 836 since I'm not interested in any sort of performance gains.  Apart from that, just want them to make sure it doesn't leak and clean things / refurbish / replace what makes sense while they're there.  I don't plan on selling the bike and just want to enjoy it. 
Can y'all think of a different, perhaps better, way I should frame it?

Just a hone, new rings, and reseal the top end. Base, head, and valve cover gaskets along with pucks will be replaced as part of this. Your guy probably knows, but avoid RTV. Use a non-hardening sealer such as threebond around the perimiter of the pucks where they sit in the groove on the head.

Offline Translations

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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2022, 04:10:45 PM »
Even though it has low miles, the materials in the cam chain tensioner and primary tensioner are old and perhaps hardened with age. Even the cam chain.

I share your opinion, you guys seem to have a lot of faith in a mystery engine that is almost 50yrs old and possibly un touched :o
« Last Edit: April 21, 2022, 04:13:20 PM by Translations »
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Offline ekpent

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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2022, 05:06:51 PM »
Maybe just lucky but I have multiple 750's that have never been opened up still getting on down the road.

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2022, 07:21:27 PM »
Even though it has low miles, the materials in the cam chain tensioner and primary tensioner are old and perhaps hardened with age. Even the cam chain.

I share your opinion, you guys seem to have a lot of faith in a mystery engine that is almost 50yrs old and possibly un touched :o
yep, that is right.  dozens of cb750's, the only ones that fail, were ruined by poor storage or meddling previous owner
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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2022, 07:49:21 PM »
Maybe just lucky but I have multiple 750's that have never been opened up still getting on down the road.

I, too, have been impressed by the internal condition of so many of the engines I have opened up in the last 15 years or so. The ones that have worn/chunked/hardened cam chain tensioner parts were also those that had incorrect oils run in them, judging by the general condition of things like their clutch discs, main bearing wear rates and primary chain wear. Once the cam chain roller gets chunked up, the cam chain suffers more wear from vibration shaking the oil out of its links while bumping over those irregular surfaces. When the clutch is in fine shape, the main bearings barely worn, the cam lobes happy and young-looking, the rubber parts in the cam chain system are also supple and not rock-hard, despite the mileage. The most impressive one I've ever seen was a 58k mile K2 engine that had always had Amsoil in it, 20w50 weight, from Wyoming (2011). The owner had removed the #2 exhaust pipe (for repair) and the shed where the bike was kept lost a wall panel in a windstorm, away from the house where the owner didn't see it. The exhaust port got packed with snow. The next Spring the owner discovered the engine was locked: that cylinder had rust enough to stop it, so he sent it to me for general rebuild. While a light honing would have sufficed, it was fully bored to oversize and sent back for what I am sure is a very happy life, still. :)
« Last Edit: June 10, 2022, 05:06:58 PM by HondaMan »
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Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: 836 kit or not? That is the question.
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2022, 08:54:38 AM »
Even though it has low miles, the materials in the cam chain tensioner and primary tensioner are old and perhaps hardened with age. Even the cam chain.

I share your opinion, you guys seem to have a lot of faith in a mystery engine that is almost 50yrs old and possibly un touched :o

That is because a lot of us have owned multiple untouched SOHC4's of various mileages without issues. My '76 750F has over 30k miles, sat for over 20 years before I got it and doesn't smoke or show signs of needing any engine work done.
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