Author Topic: 1974 CB550 - 3K Idle Surge  (Read 656 times)

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Offline TPIGroove

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1974 CB550 - 3K Idle Surge
« on: April 19, 2022, 11:15:56 AM »
Hello all. A couple of weeks ago I had my 550 running fairly fine, however I did a vacuum sync and somehow did it wrong (I blame it on following bad instructions, that's the last time I try anything from common motor, nothing but a waste of my time and money). The bike ran and idled very well on my last bench sync, with only a slight delay in return to idle speed. Since the bad sync, the bike gradually had trouble to start until it refused to do anything at all. I took out the airbox and re-benched the slides, and the bike was able to start again. The only issue now is it refuses to idle properly. It will stay around 1200-ish, but opening up the idle screw on the carb doesn't seem to make too much of a noticeable effect overall past a certain point, although closing it will lower it below 1200. The issue is anytime I try to rev it, the RPMs shoot up to slightly above 3k. Forcing the idle down with the choke or idle screw will settle it back to 1200, although it's liable to shoot back up with no change in the throttle. I tested the carb and airbox boots (brand new ones) and have no leaks. Engine and air setup are stock barring the exhaust, which is a 4-into-2 with no muffler, so I bumped up the needle one notch to compensate for the lack of back pressure.

I have a carbtune pro coming in the mail, but is this entirely the result of a bad vacuum sync?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 1974 CB550 - 3K Idle Surge
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2022, 12:42:45 PM »
Exhaust back pressure has the effect of enriching the carb idle mixture.

The idle air screws have limited effect on overall mixture.   But, they have great effect on throttle response.  Raising mechanical slides drops carb throat vacuum, and the fuel draw through jets.  The result is more air/oxygen available with little fuel to mix with.  Under load, the engine will tend to wheeze and falter until the slide is once again closed down.  This effect is why you can't whack the throttle full open until there is enough RPM to support drawing fuel through the bigger fuel jets.  Some carbs of this design type have an accelerator pump to shoot gas into the carb throat when the slides are lifted.  The CB550 does not have this.  This design relies on and over rich idle mixture to compensate the vacuum drop and loss of fuel delivery.  It works if you you don't open the throttle past one half position from idle speed.  I once tuned a stock CB550 for minimum idle mixture delivery, and it purred sitting on the stand.  Bike was undriveable, however, and any budge of throttle off idle just made the engine wheeze/stumble.  I incrementally enriched all four carb idle mixture screws and each adjustment made the bike respond better to throttle.  It took a while but eventually got the bike to pull reliably and predictably in any gear with a one half throttle twist from idle position.  Mind you, the engine does not have much torque at idle in top gear, but, it did accelerate slowly and reliably.  Of course kicking it down a bunch of gears made it scoot pretty well.  But, still, I could always rely on a happy throttle response off idle in any gear.  I then checked the resultant idle air screw setting, and it was right at factory spec.  I believe I smacked my forehead with my palm at that point and said "duh!".

So, I tell you this because I think you misunderstand Idle air screw function on this design.  It is NOT for making the idle mixture leanest, and is why this design carb could no longer be used after the 1978 EPA lean burn idle mandates were enacted.  The air screws here adjust the reaction of throttle off idle.  But, if you get it too rich, the spark plugs will not self clean reliably during periods of long idle.  (And an overrich midrange will not help, either, for cleaning the plugs.)

If you intend to run the exhaust without muffler back pressure, you will likely need to enrich the idle mixture a bit more.  If you plan on adding mufflers, they are integral to carb tune optimization. Do this now, or do the tune process again after back pressure is added.

I don't know why your carb sync didn't help you, unless you did it wrong or used the wrong process.  Vacuum carb sync has the greatest benefit for smooth idle, (and keeping clutch and trans rattle minimized) particularly with engines that have slight volumetric differences among cylinders which keeps some cylinders from competing with idle speed domination of crank rotation.

The slide needle mainly effects mixture ratios with throttle positions between 1/4 to 3/4 twist.  So, kinda above 2000-2500 PM.  The main jet supplies all above 3/4 throttle.  I don't know how you are checking for proper mixture, but, it is either trial and mostly error, or learn to read spark plugs after test runs, or run on a dyno with exhaust sniffer.  The slide is shaped to move the vacuum point from over the idle circuit exit to the slide/main circuit exit.  While there is some crossover between circuits, the slide needle/main doesn't provide much fuel for the idle slide position.

As for return to idle, lean mixtures tend to increase idle speed.  Richer mixtures idle lower.  If your idle circuit isn't rich enough for a quick transition between rich midrange and lean idle, it will hang until it has enough fuel to support a lower idle speed.  Lack of muffler back pressure exacerbates this, btw.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline TPIGroove

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Re: 1974 CB550 - 3K Idle Surge
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2022, 01:20:50 PM »
I wasn't referring to the mixture screws, they weren't part of my question at all. Fine tuning the carbs is something I can do once I get the idle set. What I said is the idle was fine before, but a poor vacuum sync method (using only one gauge) killed it. Returning the engine to the way I had it, with the bike idling and revving fairly fine, is my goal. I know a bench sync isn't ideal, but I want to know if the sudden lean condition can be caused by poor sync or if there's another potential issue, especially since it will increase in rpm from idle with no throttle input.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 1974 CB550 - 3K Idle Surge
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2022, 04:05:58 PM »
Nice to get better information.  Makes typing a long response a bit more satisfying.

I wouldn't even try to vacuum sync with one gauge, as changing one slide position changes the vacuum on all others with RPM changes.  So, its a constant chase.  Buy or borrow a set of gauges or pay for it to be done.  Always need proper tools for the job.

Realize you have one crankshaft, four pistons and separate carb for each one.  If the slides aren't set to provide the same fuel air charge, cylinders will fight for dominance and eventually settle for the more dominant one.

I slide more closed than others will, of course, cause that cylinder to be lean.  But, nothing you have said has shown that ALL cylinders were lean.   And if so, how did you determine they were all lean?

You might consider re-reading the last paragraph I wrote above.  ...or not...

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Online Deltarider

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Re: 1974 CB550 - 3K Idle Surge
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2022, 04:52:52 AM »
TPI, you must have done something wrong, but it's unfair to blame Common Motors for it. Over the years I have glanced at a wide variety of sites which demonstrate maintenance and I have seen a lot of nonsense and/or inaccuracies. Although I myself would not do everything exactly the way they do it, I find Common Motors vids quite good. They prefer to keep it simple and above all, their presentations lack the hysteria that characterise others and is so hard to endure by Europeans. As a matter of fact, if I was forced to recommend just one site, it would be theirs. I'm aware it's a commercial enterprise, but in general they inform real well and they certainly do not deserve the bashing you gave them.
I don't know if you've only worked on the carbs or also did other maintenance at the same time. Anyway some remarks.
Many, also in this forum, misunderstand the role the #38 (CB550) and the #40 (CB500) jets play in combination with the airscrews in the whole functioning of these particular carbs. In the UK site, K2-K6, not that long ago, has shed a good light on the subject, but I cannot find it right now. I will try to find it.
These jets are often referred to as 'idle' jets and that's where the misunderstanding begins. AFAIK Honda never called them idle jets, but slow jets. Important to know, is that, contrary to popular believe, these jets, together with the airscews do play a role also in higher rpms. If not, you would have needed larger main jets. In the 80s a Honda mec, who owned a CB500 himself, had already instructed me on that.
Out of curiosity I have played with various settings of the airscrews, but I always returned to the one turn out, Honda advised and I cannot for the world understand how CB500s in the US can perform well with the two turns out, a US service booklet suggests. IMO the data in forsaid booklet has its origin in an error Honda has made on p.165 in the Shop Manual Honda CB500-550.
When the slow jets are interpreted as idle jets, many make the mistake trying to arrive at an highest possible rpm @ idle by turning the airscrews out. It's very tempting as your engine will purr like a kitten, but as TT has already suggested, acceleration will be out the window. 
I'm pretty familiar with various ways of syncing and I can tell you from experience that you shouldn't expect to do it a 100% right, the first time you do it. You have to build some experience. Increments made should be minor, there's waiting, settling, listening, a bit of revving, etc. Also all adjustments should be within the limits, Honda has outlined in the Shop Manual. The cutaway also plays a role. In the past I may not have expressed myself well. It's not so much you need a filthy rich idle in it self, as well as that the slides must have a wider opening than you would have by trying to arrive at an highest idle rpm by turning the airscrews out. Another mistake many make, is interpret a scheme on the carbs working fields, also often presented here, as too litterally. Realise that all systems work together and there are overlaps, wider than you'd maybe think. This overlap is often the first, people forget when seeing such a nice clean scheme. When you realise there's cruising and accelerating, you will also understand these carbs are simple compromises at best. From experience (including experiments) I know the scheme below represents best how my CB500 carbs work and I assume your CB550 carbs will not much differ. I find it sad that you, like so many others, have chosen to change the position of the needles. IMO that's rarely needed. Most can be done with the slow and main jets and the airscrews, that is on our carbs which lack acceleration jets.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2022, 04:59:03 AM by Deltarider »
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