Author Topic: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?  (Read 2136 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« on: May 22, 2022, 03:10:11 PM »
I'm getting quite a few inquiries where the writers are confused about how the ignitions work on these bikes. It's probably due to many new members being too young to remember/use cars with Kettering ignitions (e.g., points, condensors and coils), so here's an explanation of how these systems work, for everyone:

- Most of these bikes (the CB750/500/550/400F/350F) use conventional Kettering points, condensors, and coils type ignition.
- The CB650 bikes use a modified version of 1960s-era CDI (Capacitive Discharge Ignition) all-electronic ignition.
- These 2 systems work very differently.

The Kettering systems use points that close to pass power through the coil (which is connected to battery power) to build up a magnetic field in that coil's metal core, and at the desired moment of spark (timing) these points are bumped open by a small cam (on the spark advancer), which causes the magnetic field to collapse suddenly. This collapse causes large magnetic flux across the coil's windings, resulting in momentary high voltage at the sparkplug. The condensor, which is connected across the points, absorbs the coil's angry backlash at this event, which is about 400 volts, and stores it up for the next time the points close again. Then the cycle repeats as the condensor's power is dumped to ground when the points close, and the charging cycle starts over. A little-known, but important, feature of the condensor is: its value (0.24uF, 600v) is tuned to match the inductance of the coil, which helps peak the coil voltage during spark. This value also helps to extend the duration (time) of the spark from the coil, and helps reduce the arcing that happens when the points open to interrupt the charging current. Honda engines like these need about 4000 volts of spark to run, and the Honda coils develop about 7500 volts for about 1.2mS, plenty of extra margin there.

The [original] CDI systems of the 1960s car-era racing designs used an oscillator and transformer to develop high voltage (usually between 200v and 600v, depending on the design) from the car's 12 volt system. This power charged up a capacitor (condensor) that was dumped into the coil at the moment of timing, which created a much hotter spark of about 50,000 volts, although it is very short in duration - like 0.5mS to 0.8mS duration. These systems use upwards of 8 amps of power to make this spark (some used up to 22 amps!). For car engines this was OK. Motorycles do not make much electrical power, but Honda wanted CDI-like ignition for the CB650 engine. So, they (TOYO, actually) developed a less power-hungry CDI which leaves the coils OFF until the moment of spark, then dumps a very fast-turn-on switched current to the coil when spark is needed. Then it immediately switches back off again to save battery power. To do this, they suspend (bias) the trigger coil on the timing plate between 5 volts and 12 volts of power (for a difference of about 7 volts) and swing a trigger past the coil to disturb the magnetic field that this current creates in the coil. This 'pulse' is resisted (electrically) by a capacitor (condensor) in the electronic circuit for about 1.0mS, during which time the whole rest of the circuit board turns on the coil. This sudden spike of current charges the coil until this condensor 'times out' the pulse circuit, and then the coil collapses to make a spark. It is a short, hot spark of duration set by the trigger capacitor (condensor) and is cleverly created to use less power than even the Kettering designs of the other SOHC4 bikes, because the coil only eats current during the very short charging spike. These coils are very low resistance so they can 'move' this fast, so they are not suitable for the earlier Kettering designs: installing them onto the Kettering bikes can melt the coils and their wiring.

This CDI design persisted in many Japanese bikes for decades afterward, as it is highly successful, so long as the electronics live.

In the 1970s, several "electronic" systems appeared for these, and other, Kettering-fired bikes. The most common one is the Dyna S type, where a magnet on the points cam momentarily turns OFF a Hall-Effect switch on the trigger board (one for each coil, 2 circuits per bike). These Hall-Effect switches turn OFF when a specific magnetic field is passed next to them: in the Dyna system they stay ON until Dyna's magnet, mounted on the [modified] points cam, swings past them. This ON state simulates the Kettering points being closed to charge the coils. The fly in this ointment is: they are ON all the time until the magnet swings part them, so the coils are drawing current all that time. Since these bikes have alternators that were only sized to deal with 1 coil charging up at a time, the coil electrical load is now doubled. This drains a lot of extra power from the bike. The 500/550 has the biggest trouble with this system, as its alternator rotor is poorly made and the alternators do not make much power as the result. Even the 750 has trouble supplying enough power for this unless it is ridden on the hiway at speeds over 4000 RPM for most of the ride time.

The Tytronics system is very much like the Dyna system. Newer versions of this one are reputed to have 'dwell limiters' in them to reduce the ON time somewhat, but the jury is still out as to how well this works, and its longevity, given where it is made.

Boyer-Bransden made an optical version a long time ago that was a compromise in power consumption between the Kettering and Dyna designs. Today this system seems to be available in UK on-and-off, and may come to the rescue of those who do not wish to live with points at all. It uses optical switches instead of Hall-Effect devices, with timing circuitry added to reduce over-consumption of coil charging power time duration.

My own Transistor Ignition merely uses the existing points to switch transistors instead of coils, in order to remove the arcing that wears the points. Since most of the points foot wear is caused by the points arc-welding themselves shut after each spark above 5500 RPM, this box stops that wear completely. This prevents point-foot wear almost 100%: I ran 9 years with my own unit #2 (Terry in AUS has #1) with no timing adjustments needed until I tore the whole engine down for rebuild. Then it was reset in 2013, hasn't needed anything since. I first developed this in 1973 to reduce the constant need to adjust points then, although it was so expensive compared to points then ($140 USD back when points cost $3, and in those $$ it would be about $280 today) that few of them got installed. Today, this is a different game, and it also supplies 100% "backup" in the form of being able to plug your points right back in if somehow the box should die. Thus, you can still ride home instead of hitching a ride to the nearest pickup truck or trailer. In America, where it is more than 3000 miles shore-to-shore and my average tour mileage was 2x to 3x that much mileage, this is a useful feature. ;)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2022, 06:13:17 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Don R

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2022, 03:54:19 PM »
 Mark, do you have any thoughts on the Gerex CD multi-fire? Mine is on a bike that had a cut down rotor, it was kick start only though.
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Offline fizzlebottom

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2022, 04:31:21 PM »
For the 11 years I've owned my CB650, I've been nothing less than grateful that I've never had to worry about fiddling with anything in the ignition system.

Great info on the history!
1982 CB650SC Nighthawk

Offline tourmax

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2022, 05:12:20 PM »
The ignitech ignition box should also be mentioned as an option.

roughly 200 bucks delivered and fully programmable. Comes with a base map for the bike and you can add things like sequential coils, rev limiters, full control over the 2d and 3d map, switchable ignition advance maps, shift lights, airshifters, and on and on.

I use them on all my bikes now. It's not that my oem ignition boxes were bad or not running right, it's that once I had my first ignitech tcip4 I was spoiled for all the options it gave me.

They can even make it "plug and play" with the original wring harness if you want so you just plug it in and go.

I especially appreciate being able to hook up the laptop to it and monitor things like bat voltage and rpm when I'm working on the bike. Like when I'm doing the EGA adjustments. Some guys have even written scripts that allow it to datalog when you take it for a run while tuning.

The only "gotcha" is the ignition advance is 100% digital so you have to disable the advance weights and allow the ignitech to do it all from its programming. Easy enough to fix the advance and it's a "one and done" deal.

I also had to add a map sensor in order to run sequential plug firing. the box knows the crank position from the pulser units (which the ignitech reuses) and it uses the intake "pulse" seen by the map sensor in order to know when #1 is on it's compression stroke. Pretty clever really.

Not sure if it works the same way with points as it does with the later units with pulsers, but they also sell a conversion kit for points to a hall type sensor. I think they can make use of points, but if you're going this far to make it digital, might s well go all the way and install the hall sensor/pickup unit and step up to at least 90's era tech.

Pretty reliable things too. I've got thousands of km's on the one in my Venture/Vmax hybrid without a single hiccup.

Worth a look if you're in the market for a box.

Disclaimer: I have no connection to Ignitech other than being a satisfied customer. Google will turn them up if you woudl like to check it out. Be advised English isn't their first language (they're Czech), so the website and email correspondence isn't that great.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2022, 05:27:28 PM by tourmax »
1989 FJ1200, 1983 Yamaha Venture (Vmax conversion), 1985 VF 750F Interceptor, 1982 CB650SC, 1988 Corvette convertible (Z52), 1983 Mustang GT, 2009 Mini Cooper Clubman.Couple more lying around but this is long enough already!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2022, 06:38:28 PM »
Mark, do you have any thoughts on the Gerex CD multi-fire? Mine is on a bike that had a cut down rotor, it was kick start only though.

My only encounters with the Gerex was at dragrace tracks. It made amazing amounts of spark voltage, but since these engines (in more-or-less stock configurations) only require about 4kV to run, it seemed overkill for street use. I don't know how much power it used either, but I do remember that the bikes that ran with it also sat on battery chargers between heats. Most of those likely had lightened alternators (or none), too, as they were 10k-12k RPM runners.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2022, 07:33:59 PM »
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Offline scottly

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2022, 08:25:09 PM »
Mark, do you have any thoughts on the Gerex CD multi-fire? Mine is on a bike that had a cut down rotor, it was kick start only though.

My only encounters with the Gerex was at dragrace tracks. It made amazing amounts of spark voltage, but since these engines (in more-or-less stock configurations) only require about 4kV to run, it seemed overkill for street use. I don't know how much power it used either, but I do remember that the bikes that ran with it also sat on battery chargers between heats. Most of those likely had lightened alternators (or none), too, as they were 10k-12k RPM runners.
There was a "Race Only" version of the Gerex that drew something like 10 amps, IIRC, and was only used with total loss battery power.
The standard Gerex is quite street friendly, and while I have never measured the actual draw, I have used mine with a 3 ah lead acid battery and lightened alternator rotor with no issues. ;D It was on my bike when I bought it in 1979, and it still works just as well as it did 43 years ago. ;D ;D ;D
 
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2022, 07:56:43 PM »
Mark, do you have any thoughts on the Gerex CD multi-fire? Mine is on a bike that had a cut down rotor, it was kick start only though.

My only encounters with the Gerex was at dragrace tracks. It made amazing amounts of spark voltage, but since these engines (in more-or-less stock configurations) only require about 4kV to run, it seemed overkill for street use. I don't know how much power it used either, but I do remember that the bikes that ran with it also sat on battery chargers between heats. Most of those likely had lightened alternators (or none), too, as they were 10k-12k RPM runners.
There was a "Race Only" version of the Gerex that drew something like 10 amps, IIRC, and was only used with total loss battery power.
The standard Gerex is quite street friendly, and while I have never measured the actual draw, I have used mine with a 3 ah lead acid battery and lightened alternator rotor with no issues. ;D It was on my bike when I bought it in 1979, and it still works just as well as it did 43 years ago. ;D ;D ;D
 

That may well be the one I remember! I haven't ever seen the 'streetable' version before.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Don R

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2022, 11:36:02 PM »
   Gerex also had a transistor version called the "convertible ignition" that sounds similar to the Hondaman ignition design.
   A guy from Canada had several different types and "points plate" replacements on ebay a while back. I should have bought them just for giggles but had just drug home a truck and trailer full of Honda stuff.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2022, 07:20:11 PM »
In 1972-73 there was a small, sheet-metal-boxed package that came from Japan (for $20-something) that did what my box does, but for some reason they didn't get popular, and disappeared by 1975. I can't remember its name, but I saw one mounted on a 750, under the left side cover,  that came thru my shop from California in 1973 enroute to the East Coast on a coast-to-coast ride that summer. The owner had me check the timing (with a strobe), but it was dead-on. He needed a new rear tire and oil change. I think it had about 10k miles on the bike.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline dave500

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2022, 12:12:58 AM »
ive used a few of the boyer units,ive never seen an optical trigger type?must be way before my time they all look to be reluctor?

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2022, 06:12:26 PM »
ive used a few of the boyer units,ive never seen an optical trigger type?must be way before my time they all look to be reluctor?
I had to correct my Boyer comment: it wasn't "for a long time" but "a long time ago". the ones I saw were at tracks and the tuners told me they were optical in nature. They had somewhat less dwell ON time than the Hall-Effect types. The reluctor version came, IIRC, about 1972?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Ichiban 4

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2022, 01:05:34 PM »
Bump
Al Summers

Present: '77 550K
Past: '73 CB450(twin), '72 CB175, '68 CB350, '58 Ariel Square 4 (1000cc), '58 Matchless Typhoon (650cc single), Whizzer Motorbikes '48 -'55 (Pacemaker & Sportsman)..Vespa, Lambretta scooters..etc.

Offline Don R

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2022, 01:32:55 PM »
 I avoided optical ignitions since Mallory's Unilite. My opinion was they were notoriously unreliable.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2022, 06:54:16 PM »
I avoided optical ignitions since Mallory's Unilite. My opinion was they were notoriously unreliable.
I never heard of that one: do you know much about it?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline dave500

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2022, 10:14:52 PM »
lucas had an optical unit called "opus"it got nicknamed opeless!any position sensors on cars are some form of magnetic?

Offline Don R

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2022, 01:05:27 AM »
 Apparently they still make the Unilite, the ones I heard of may have been custom made for the 750s. It used a shutter wheel to time the light. I remember friends cars stranded at the dragstrip and I hauled at least one 65 GTO home from a car show in my trailer after a Unilite failed. I remember hearing it can't be bad, it's almost new. I think my nephew carried a spare module for his 421, he might still have it in his glove box.
 https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Mallory-605-Replacement-Ignition-Module-for-Unilite-Distributors,201645.html?sku=500605&utm_matchtype={match_type}&msclkid=729cca9f6df417c9d2f2a80b15aa8fe3&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=SMI%20-%20Shopping%20(CSE)%20(Bing)&utm_term=4577404346894346&utm_content=All%20Products%20(Feb28_2020)
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 01:13:26 AM by Don R »
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2022, 07:08:51 PM »
Apparently they still make the Unilite, the ones I heard of may have been custom made for the 750s. It used a shutter wheel to time the light. I remember friends cars stranded at the dragstrip and I hauled at least one 65 GTO home from a car show in my trailer after a Unilite failed. I remember hearing it can't be bad, it's almost new. I think my nephew carried a spare module for his 421, he might still have it in his glove box.
 https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Mallory-605-Replacement-Ignition-Module-for-Unilite-Distributors,201645.html?sku=500605&utm_matchtype={match_type}&msclkid=729cca9f6df417c9d2f2a80b15aa8fe3&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=SMI%20-%20Shopping%20(CSE)%20(Bing)&utm_term=4577404346894346&utm_content=All%20Products%20(Feb28_2020)

Oh, I see: this one is very much like the GM HEI units from the late 1980s through the early 2000s. They have the same built-in 'fatal flaw' in the design, too, which is: if the [battery] voltage supply to the unit drops below [approximately] 8.6 volts for any reason, it latches ON and will not turn off. In a very short time this overheats, and usually shorts out, the switching device, which is a MOSFET transistor (it might be an IGFET instead, but these have the same issue). These forums have shown what happens when this type of 'quick fix' ignition is used in these bikes, which frequently have low-voltage issues, even temporarily. The GM HEI modules are [in]famous for this very failure.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2022, 05:38:27 PM »
For years I've been saying that the often-reported Dyna failures on our old bikes is actually caused by over voltage to the unit ! This was reported by Dyna's biggest vendor about 10 years ago.
The stock regulators on the SOHC4 bikes with point ignitions will often produce 15v due to old wiring harnesses and resistance through all the connectors in the loom. Not a problem for point ignitions, but the Dyna's need a constant 14v ( max ) to operate or apparently will shut down. A lot of folks thought this was heat related as many failures happened on a long ride where the motor gets good and hot. Actually a long ride with hours between electric starts allows the battery to achieve full charge and the charging load is well reduced, so the voltage goes up and the regulator is slow to react = 15v which the Dyna apparently rejects. Returned units tested fine over and over, not heat, overvoltage ! So if you must have a Dyna install a solid state regulator/rectifier too which will 'clamp' the voltage to 14v irrespective of rpms ( I have a problem with that personally as the alt. was not designed to produce 14v at idle, which I have witnessed on a bike) Good luck.
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If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2022, 07:04:40 PM »
For years I've been saying that the often-reported Dyna failures on our old bikes is actually caused by over voltage to the unit ! This was reported by Dyna's biggest vendor about 10 years ago.
The stock regulators on the SOHC4 bikes with point ignitions will often produce 15v due to old wiring harnesses and resistance through all the connectors in the loom. Not a problem for point ignitions, but the Dyna's need a constant 14v ( max ) to operate or apparently will shut down. A lot of folks thought this was heat related as many failures happened on a long ride where the motor gets good and hot. Actually a long ride with hours between electric starts allows the battery to achieve full charge and the charging load is well reduced, so the voltage goes up and the regulator is slow to react = 15v which the Dyna apparently rejects. Returned units tested fine over and over, not heat, overvoltage ! So if you must have a Dyna install a solid state regulator/rectifier too which will 'clamp' the voltage to 14v irrespective of rpms ( I have a problem with that personally as the alt. was not designed to produce 14v at idle, which I have witnessed on a bike) Good luck.

This is interesting news, Spanner! I've never heard this about the Dyna units before.
Good thing mine is made to operate from 5.8 volts to 24 volts...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2022, 07:38:10 PM »
Yes Mark, I'm quoting the owner of a big Dyna vendor, can't remember their name ( oldtimers ).
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2022, 10:33:28 PM »
Yes Mark, I'm quoting the owner of a big Dyna vendor, can't remember their name ( oldtimers ).


This does hint that those riding with Dyna might want a Rick's Regulator setup to prevent the high-voltage problem.
Hmmm...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline PeWe

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2022, 11:06:00 PM »
Design flaw if Dyna ignition can not withstand 15V.
Battery need to be charged.

Honda shop manual written long time before Dyna ignition  say 14.5V in the chapter about charging, ch. 8

AGM battery which is a later type of battery need higher charging voltage, 14.7V.
GEL need lower for constant charging, a little over 14V.

If ignition is correctly designed for a CB750, constant 15V should be possible to survive.

Both my bikes have Dyna-S and I have had the voltage in my mind as a reason for the old reported failures.

Both my bikes have voltmeter between the speedo and tacho. Inititially to verify the adjustment of the regulator and ensure charging. Not too low nor to high for the battery.

Adjust the regulator too low will make it to not enter the high charging mode at all.  Done that.

I saw that when I aimed to get a constant max charging voltage around 14.1-14.2V as GEL battery is described to need. (Found on Internet)
Result around 13V.

I hope Dynatek changed components to be able to withstand at least 15V. I have read on this forum that the later design is better not getting the 2:3 failure.

14.5-14.7V as max will ensure charging.
But that take time on constant riding after a ride in lower speed, blinkers, brake light etc that take some.
I see that constantly thanks to the voltmeter.

Important to verify the voltage it show compared to a real voltmeter over the battery poles. I have seen differencies between 0.1-0.2V since the voltmeter is connected after the ign switch. Some losses in switch and connectors.

One bike has the voltmeter connected over the coil voltage, the other to nearest black and green connections at front.

Measure the voltage to Dyna-S unit must be more important. Both bikes did not have Dyna-S when voltmeter was installed.

They get 12V from a relay close to battery. Hanging fuse  for ignition unit only after relay.
Another hanging fuse (higher amp) before relay to protect all wiring and coil power as close to battery inside left side cover.

Maybe the Dyna-S need an own regulator.

It should be handy with a small regulator as 12V regulators that had a rather wide range, over 20V.
Size and look as a power transistor with 1 ear. That had max current of 1A.
Need to adjust to 14V and withstand 5A?

I upgraded a power supply to leave 12V since it could give more when the load was low.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2022, 11:20:16 PM by PeWe »
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CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline tourmax

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2022, 08:31:03 AM »
For consideration, the Ignitecjh units run on 8-18v. Probably why they don't fail like the dyna is reported to on an overvoltage.

I find it kind of strange the dyna doesn't have a protection circuit designed in to it if more than 15v will "fry" it. Even a fuse or fusable diode would be better than cooking the internal circuits in an overvolt situ.....Got e thinking it might be worthwhile to fuse the power line to the ignitech, just to be safe.
1989 FJ1200, 1983 Yamaha Venture (Vmax conversion), 1985 VF 750F Interceptor, 1982 CB650SC, 1988 Corvette convertible (Z52), 1983 Mustang GT, 2009 Mini Cooper Clubman.Couple more lying around but this is long enough already!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2022, 04:33:15 PM »
If the bike's wiring and connectors are faulty and providing the wrong reference voltage to the regulator, it won't matter if it's the stock unit or an electronic one.  The system voltage will still go above 15V.

Further, if the Dyna can't withstand 15V, they seriously cheaped out on the design of components and left no margin for reliability knowing that the bikes it was intended for would routinely get to 14.5 or even 14.7V if the system was near tolerance.    Really?  A 0.3V margin for error?  Let's see, 0.3v out of 14.5V is only a ~2% margin for error.    That's ridiculous, and predatory upon it's buyers, imo.

Sure seems justified to say the Dyna is just plain a bad design.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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