Author Topic: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?  (Read 2134 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« on: May 22, 2022, 03:10:11 PM »
I'm getting quite a few inquiries where the writers are confused about how the ignitions work on these bikes. It's probably due to many new members being too young to remember/use cars with Kettering ignitions (e.g., points, condensors and coils), so here's an explanation of how these systems work, for everyone:

- Most of these bikes (the CB750/500/550/400F/350F) use conventional Kettering points, condensors, and coils type ignition.
- The CB650 bikes use a modified version of 1960s-era CDI (Capacitive Discharge Ignition) all-electronic ignition.
- These 2 systems work very differently.

The Kettering systems use points that close to pass power through the coil (which is connected to battery power) to build up a magnetic field in that coil's metal core, and at the desired moment of spark (timing) these points are bumped open by a small cam (on the spark advancer), which causes the magnetic field to collapse suddenly. This collapse causes large magnetic flux across the coil's windings, resulting in momentary high voltage at the sparkplug. The condensor, which is connected across the points, absorbs the coil's angry backlash at this event, which is about 400 volts, and stores it up for the next time the points close again. Then the cycle repeats as the condensor's power is dumped to ground when the points close, and the charging cycle starts over. A little-known, but important, feature of the condensor is: its value (0.24uF, 600v) is tuned to match the inductance of the coil, which helps peak the coil voltage during spark. This value also helps to extend the duration (time) of the spark from the coil, and helps reduce the arcing that happens when the points open to interrupt the charging current. Honda engines like these need about 4000 volts of spark to run, and the Honda coils develop about 7500 volts for about 1.2mS, plenty of extra margin there.

The [original] CDI systems of the 1960s car-era racing designs used an oscillator and transformer to develop high voltage (usually between 200v and 600v, depending on the design) from the car's 12 volt system. This power charged up a capacitor (condensor) that was dumped into the coil at the moment of timing, which created a much hotter spark of about 50,000 volts, although it is very short in duration - like 0.5mS to 0.8mS duration. These systems use upwards of 8 amps of power to make this spark (some used up to 22 amps!). For car engines this was OK. Motorycles do not make much electrical power, but Honda wanted CDI-like ignition for the CB650 engine. So, they (TOYO, actually) developed a less power-hungry CDI which leaves the coils OFF until the moment of spark, then dumps a very fast-turn-on switched current to the coil when spark is needed. Then it immediately switches back off again to save battery power. To do this, they suspend (bias) the trigger coil on the timing plate between 5 volts and 12 volts of power (for a difference of about 7 volts) and swing a trigger past the coil to disturb the magnetic field that this current creates in the coil. This 'pulse' is resisted (electrically) by a capacitor (condensor) in the electronic circuit for about 1.0mS, during which time the whole rest of the circuit board turns on the coil. This sudden spike of current charges the coil until this condensor 'times out' the pulse circuit, and then the coil collapses to make a spark. It is a short, hot spark of duration set by the trigger capacitor (condensor) and is cleverly created to use less power than even the Kettering designs of the other SOHC4 bikes, because the coil only eats current during the very short charging spike. These coils are very low resistance so they can 'move' this fast, so they are not suitable for the earlier Kettering designs: installing them onto the Kettering bikes can melt the coils and their wiring.

This CDI design persisted in many Japanese bikes for decades afterward, as it is highly successful, so long as the electronics live.

In the 1970s, several "electronic" systems appeared for these, and other, Kettering-fired bikes. The most common one is the Dyna S type, where a magnet on the points cam momentarily turns OFF a Hall-Effect switch on the trigger board (one for each coil, 2 circuits per bike). These Hall-Effect switches turn OFF when a specific magnetic field is passed next to them: in the Dyna system they stay ON until Dyna's magnet, mounted on the [modified] points cam, swings past them. This ON state simulates the Kettering points being closed to charge the coils. The fly in this ointment is: they are ON all the time until the magnet swings part them, so the coils are drawing current all that time. Since these bikes have alternators that were only sized to deal with 1 coil charging up at a time, the coil electrical load is now doubled. This drains a lot of extra power from the bike. The 500/550 has the biggest trouble with this system, as its alternator rotor is poorly made and the alternators do not make much power as the result. Even the 750 has trouble supplying enough power for this unless it is ridden on the hiway at speeds over 4000 RPM for most of the ride time.

The Tytronics system is very much like the Dyna system. Newer versions of this one are reputed to have 'dwell limiters' in them to reduce the ON time somewhat, but the jury is still out as to how well this works, and its longevity, given where it is made.

Boyer-Bransden made an optical version a long time ago that was a compromise in power consumption between the Kettering and Dyna designs. Today this system seems to be available in UK on-and-off, and may come to the rescue of those who do not wish to live with points at all. It uses optical switches instead of Hall-Effect devices, with timing circuitry added to reduce over-consumption of coil charging power time duration.

My own Transistor Ignition merely uses the existing points to switch transistors instead of coils, in order to remove the arcing that wears the points. Since most of the points foot wear is caused by the points arc-welding themselves shut after each spark above 5500 RPM, this box stops that wear completely. This prevents point-foot wear almost 100%: I ran 9 years with my own unit #2 (Terry in AUS has #1) with no timing adjustments needed until I tore the whole engine down for rebuild. Then it was reset in 2013, hasn't needed anything since. I first developed this in 1973 to reduce the constant need to adjust points then, although it was so expensive compared to points then ($140 USD back when points cost $3, and in those $$ it would be about $280 today) that few of them got installed. Today, this is a different game, and it also supplies 100% "backup" in the form of being able to plug your points right back in if somehow the box should die. Thus, you can still ride home instead of hitching a ride to the nearest pickup truck or trailer. In America, where it is more than 3000 miles shore-to-shore and my average tour mileage was 2x to 3x that much mileage, this is a useful feature. ;)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2022, 06:13:17 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Don R

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2022, 03:54:19 PM »
 Mark, do you have any thoughts on the Gerex CD multi-fire? Mine is on a bike that had a cut down rotor, it was kick start only though.
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Offline fizzlebottom

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2022, 04:31:21 PM »
For the 11 years I've owned my CB650, I've been nothing less than grateful that I've never had to worry about fiddling with anything in the ignition system.

Great info on the history!
1982 CB650SC Nighthawk

Offline tourmax

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2022, 05:12:20 PM »
The ignitech ignition box should also be mentioned as an option.

roughly 200 bucks delivered and fully programmable. Comes with a base map for the bike and you can add things like sequential coils, rev limiters, full control over the 2d and 3d map, switchable ignition advance maps, shift lights, airshifters, and on and on.

I use them on all my bikes now. It's not that my oem ignition boxes were bad or not running right, it's that once I had my first ignitech tcip4 I was spoiled for all the options it gave me.

They can even make it "plug and play" with the original wring harness if you want so you just plug it in and go.

I especially appreciate being able to hook up the laptop to it and monitor things like bat voltage and rpm when I'm working on the bike. Like when I'm doing the EGA adjustments. Some guys have even written scripts that allow it to datalog when you take it for a run while tuning.

The only "gotcha" is the ignition advance is 100% digital so you have to disable the advance weights and allow the ignitech to do it all from its programming. Easy enough to fix the advance and it's a "one and done" deal.

I also had to add a map sensor in order to run sequential plug firing. the box knows the crank position from the pulser units (which the ignitech reuses) and it uses the intake "pulse" seen by the map sensor in order to know when #1 is on it's compression stroke. Pretty clever really.

Not sure if it works the same way with points as it does with the later units with pulsers, but they also sell a conversion kit for points to a hall type sensor. I think they can make use of points, but if you're going this far to make it digital, might s well go all the way and install the hall sensor/pickup unit and step up to at least 90's era tech.

Pretty reliable things too. I've got thousands of km's on the one in my Venture/Vmax hybrid without a single hiccup.

Worth a look if you're in the market for a box.

Disclaimer: I have no connection to Ignitech other than being a satisfied customer. Google will turn them up if you woudl like to check it out. Be advised English isn't their first language (they're Czech), so the website and email correspondence isn't that great.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2022, 05:27:28 PM by tourmax »
1989 FJ1200, 1983 Yamaha Venture (Vmax conversion), 1985 VF 750F Interceptor, 1982 CB650SC, 1988 Corvette convertible (Z52), 1983 Mustang GT, 2009 Mini Cooper Clubman.Couple more lying around but this is long enough already!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2022, 06:38:28 PM »
Mark, do you have any thoughts on the Gerex CD multi-fire? Mine is on a bike that had a cut down rotor, it was kick start only though.

My only encounters with the Gerex was at dragrace tracks. It made amazing amounts of spark voltage, but since these engines (in more-or-less stock configurations) only require about 4kV to run, it seemed overkill for street use. I don't know how much power it used either, but I do remember that the bikes that ran with it also sat on battery chargers between heats. Most of those likely had lightened alternators (or none), too, as they were 10k-12k RPM runners.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2022, 07:33:59 PM »
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Offline scottly

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2022, 08:25:09 PM »
Mark, do you have any thoughts on the Gerex CD multi-fire? Mine is on a bike that had a cut down rotor, it was kick start only though.

My only encounters with the Gerex was at dragrace tracks. It made amazing amounts of spark voltage, but since these engines (in more-or-less stock configurations) only require about 4kV to run, it seemed overkill for street use. I don't know how much power it used either, but I do remember that the bikes that ran with it also sat on battery chargers between heats. Most of those likely had lightened alternators (or none), too, as they were 10k-12k RPM runners.
There was a "Race Only" version of the Gerex that drew something like 10 amps, IIRC, and was only used with total loss battery power.
The standard Gerex is quite street friendly, and while I have never measured the actual draw, I have used mine with a 3 ah lead acid battery and lightened alternator rotor with no issues. ;D It was on my bike when I bought it in 1979, and it still works just as well as it did 43 years ago. ;D ;D ;D
 
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2022, 07:56:43 PM »
Mark, do you have any thoughts on the Gerex CD multi-fire? Mine is on a bike that had a cut down rotor, it was kick start only though.

My only encounters with the Gerex was at dragrace tracks. It made amazing amounts of spark voltage, but since these engines (in more-or-less stock configurations) only require about 4kV to run, it seemed overkill for street use. I don't know how much power it used either, but I do remember that the bikes that ran with it also sat on battery chargers between heats. Most of those likely had lightened alternators (or none), too, as they were 10k-12k RPM runners.
There was a "Race Only" version of the Gerex that drew something like 10 amps, IIRC, and was only used with total loss battery power.
The standard Gerex is quite street friendly, and while I have never measured the actual draw, I have used mine with a 3 ah lead acid battery and lightened alternator rotor with no issues. ;D It was on my bike when I bought it in 1979, and it still works just as well as it did 43 years ago. ;D ;D ;D
 

That may well be the one I remember! I haven't ever seen the 'streetable' version before.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Don R

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2022, 11:36:02 PM »
   Gerex also had a transistor version called the "convertible ignition" that sounds similar to the Hondaman ignition design.
   A guy from Canada had several different types and "points plate" replacements on ebay a while back. I should have bought them just for giggles but had just drug home a truck and trailer full of Honda stuff.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2022, 07:20:11 PM »
In 1972-73 there was a small, sheet-metal-boxed package that came from Japan (for $20-something) that did what my box does, but for some reason they didn't get popular, and disappeared by 1975. I can't remember its name, but I saw one mounted on a 750, under the left side cover,  that came thru my shop from California in 1973 enroute to the East Coast on a coast-to-coast ride that summer. The owner had me check the timing (with a strobe), but it was dead-on. He needed a new rear tire and oil change. I think it had about 10k miles on the bike.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline dave500

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2022, 12:12:58 AM »
ive used a few of the boyer units,ive never seen an optical trigger type?must be way before my time they all look to be reluctor?

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2022, 06:12:26 PM »
ive used a few of the boyer units,ive never seen an optical trigger type?must be way before my time they all look to be reluctor?
I had to correct my Boyer comment: it wasn't "for a long time" but "a long time ago". the ones I saw were at tracks and the tuners told me they were optical in nature. They had somewhat less dwell ON time than the Hall-Effect types. The reluctor version came, IIRC, about 1972?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Ichiban 4

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2022, 01:05:34 PM »
Bump
Al Summers

Present: '77 550K
Past: '73 CB450(twin), '72 CB175, '68 CB350, '58 Ariel Square 4 (1000cc), '58 Matchless Typhoon (650cc single), Whizzer Motorbikes '48 -'55 (Pacemaker & Sportsman)..Vespa, Lambretta scooters..etc.

Offline Don R

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2022, 01:32:55 PM »
 I avoided optical ignitions since Mallory's Unilite. My opinion was they were notoriously unreliable.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2022, 06:54:16 PM »
I avoided optical ignitions since Mallory's Unilite. My opinion was they were notoriously unreliable.
I never heard of that one: do you know much about it?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline dave500

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2022, 10:14:52 PM »
lucas had an optical unit called "opus"it got nicknamed opeless!any position sensors on cars are some form of magnetic?

Offline Don R

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2022, 01:05:27 AM »
 Apparently they still make the Unilite, the ones I heard of may have been custom made for the 750s. It used a shutter wheel to time the light. I remember friends cars stranded at the dragstrip and I hauled at least one 65 GTO home from a car show in my trailer after a Unilite failed. I remember hearing it can't be bad, it's almost new. I think my nephew carried a spare module for his 421, he might still have it in his glove box.
 https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Mallory-605-Replacement-Ignition-Module-for-Unilite-Distributors,201645.html?sku=500605&utm_matchtype={match_type}&msclkid=729cca9f6df417c9d2f2a80b15aa8fe3&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=SMI%20-%20Shopping%20(CSE)%20(Bing)&utm_term=4577404346894346&utm_content=All%20Products%20(Feb28_2020)
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 01:13:26 AM by Don R »
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2022, 07:08:51 PM »
Apparently they still make the Unilite, the ones I heard of may have been custom made for the 750s. It used a shutter wheel to time the light. I remember friends cars stranded at the dragstrip and I hauled at least one 65 GTO home from a car show in my trailer after a Unilite failed. I remember hearing it can't be bad, it's almost new. I think my nephew carried a spare module for his 421, he might still have it in his glove box.
 https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Mallory-605-Replacement-Ignition-Module-for-Unilite-Distributors,201645.html?sku=500605&utm_matchtype={match_type}&msclkid=729cca9f6df417c9d2f2a80b15aa8fe3&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=SMI%20-%20Shopping%20(CSE)%20(Bing)&utm_term=4577404346894346&utm_content=All%20Products%20(Feb28_2020)

Oh, I see: this one is very much like the GM HEI units from the late 1980s through the early 2000s. They have the same built-in 'fatal flaw' in the design, too, which is: if the [battery] voltage supply to the unit drops below [approximately] 8.6 volts for any reason, it latches ON and will not turn off. In a very short time this overheats, and usually shorts out, the switching device, which is a MOSFET transistor (it might be an IGFET instead, but these have the same issue). These forums have shown what happens when this type of 'quick fix' ignition is used in these bikes, which frequently have low-voltage issues, even temporarily. The GM HEI modules are [in]famous for this very failure.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2022, 05:38:27 PM »
For years I've been saying that the often-reported Dyna failures on our old bikes is actually caused by over voltage to the unit ! This was reported by Dyna's biggest vendor about 10 years ago.
The stock regulators on the SOHC4 bikes with point ignitions will often produce 15v due to old wiring harnesses and resistance through all the connectors in the loom. Not a problem for point ignitions, but the Dyna's need a constant 14v ( max ) to operate or apparently will shut down. A lot of folks thought this was heat related as many failures happened on a long ride where the motor gets good and hot. Actually a long ride with hours between electric starts allows the battery to achieve full charge and the charging load is well reduced, so the voltage goes up and the regulator is slow to react = 15v which the Dyna apparently rejects. Returned units tested fine over and over, not heat, overvoltage ! So if you must have a Dyna install a solid state regulator/rectifier too which will 'clamp' the voltage to 14v irrespective of rpms ( I have a problem with that personally as the alt. was not designed to produce 14v at idle, which I have witnessed on a bike) Good luck.
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If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2022, 07:04:40 PM »
For years I've been saying that the often-reported Dyna failures on our old bikes is actually caused by over voltage to the unit ! This was reported by Dyna's biggest vendor about 10 years ago.
The stock regulators on the SOHC4 bikes with point ignitions will often produce 15v due to old wiring harnesses and resistance through all the connectors in the loom. Not a problem for point ignitions, but the Dyna's need a constant 14v ( max ) to operate or apparently will shut down. A lot of folks thought this was heat related as many failures happened on a long ride where the motor gets good and hot. Actually a long ride with hours between electric starts allows the battery to achieve full charge and the charging load is well reduced, so the voltage goes up and the regulator is slow to react = 15v which the Dyna apparently rejects. Returned units tested fine over and over, not heat, overvoltage ! So if you must have a Dyna install a solid state regulator/rectifier too which will 'clamp' the voltage to 14v irrespective of rpms ( I have a problem with that personally as the alt. was not designed to produce 14v at idle, which I have witnessed on a bike) Good luck.

This is interesting news, Spanner! I've never heard this about the Dyna units before.
Good thing mine is made to operate from 5.8 volts to 24 volts...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2022, 07:38:10 PM »
Yes Mark, I'm quoting the owner of a big Dyna vendor, can't remember their name ( oldtimers ).
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2022, 10:33:28 PM »
Yes Mark, I'm quoting the owner of a big Dyna vendor, can't remember their name ( oldtimers ).


This does hint that those riding with Dyna might want a Rick's Regulator setup to prevent the high-voltage problem.
Hmmm...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline PeWe

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2022, 11:06:00 PM »
Design flaw if Dyna ignition can not withstand 15V.
Battery need to be charged.

Honda shop manual written long time before Dyna ignition  say 14.5V in the chapter about charging, ch. 8

AGM battery which is a later type of battery need higher charging voltage, 14.7V.
GEL need lower for constant charging, a little over 14V.

If ignition is correctly designed for a CB750, constant 15V should be possible to survive.

Both my bikes have Dyna-S and I have had the voltage in my mind as a reason for the old reported failures.

Both my bikes have voltmeter between the speedo and tacho. Inititially to verify the adjustment of the regulator and ensure charging. Not too low nor to high for the battery.

Adjust the regulator too low will make it to not enter the high charging mode at all.  Done that.

I saw that when I aimed to get a constant max charging voltage around 14.1-14.2V as GEL battery is described to need. (Found on Internet)
Result around 13V.

I hope Dynatek changed components to be able to withstand at least 15V. I have read on this forum that the later design is better not getting the 2:3 failure.

14.5-14.7V as max will ensure charging.
But that take time on constant riding after a ride in lower speed, blinkers, brake light etc that take some.
I see that constantly thanks to the voltmeter.

Important to verify the voltage it show compared to a real voltmeter over the battery poles. I have seen differencies between 0.1-0.2V since the voltmeter is connected after the ign switch. Some losses in switch and connectors.

One bike has the voltmeter connected over the coil voltage, the other to nearest black and green connections at front.

Measure the voltage to Dyna-S unit must be more important. Both bikes did not have Dyna-S when voltmeter was installed.

They get 12V from a relay close to battery. Hanging fuse  for ignition unit only after relay.
Another hanging fuse (higher amp) before relay to protect all wiring and coil power as close to battery inside left side cover.

Maybe the Dyna-S need an own regulator.

It should be handy with a small regulator as 12V regulators that had a rather wide range, over 20V.
Size and look as a power transistor with 1 ear. That had max current of 1A.
Need to adjust to 14V and withstand 5A?

I upgraded a power supply to leave 12V since it could give more when the load was low.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2022, 11:20:16 PM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline tourmax

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2022, 08:31:03 AM »
For consideration, the Ignitecjh units run on 8-18v. Probably why they don't fail like the dyna is reported to on an overvoltage.

I find it kind of strange the dyna doesn't have a protection circuit designed in to it if more than 15v will "fry" it. Even a fuse or fusable diode would be better than cooking the internal circuits in an overvolt situ.....Got e thinking it might be worthwhile to fuse the power line to the ignitech, just to be safe.
1989 FJ1200, 1983 Yamaha Venture (Vmax conversion), 1985 VF 750F Interceptor, 1982 CB650SC, 1988 Corvette convertible (Z52), 1983 Mustang GT, 2009 Mini Cooper Clubman.Couple more lying around but this is long enough already!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2022, 04:33:15 PM »
If the bike's wiring and connectors are faulty and providing the wrong reference voltage to the regulator, it won't matter if it's the stock unit or an electronic one.  The system voltage will still go above 15V.

Further, if the Dyna can't withstand 15V, they seriously cheaped out on the design of components and left no margin for reliability knowing that the bikes it was intended for would routinely get to 14.5 or even 14.7V if the system was near tolerance.    Really?  A 0.3V margin for error?  Let's see, 0.3v out of 14.5V is only a ~2% margin for error.    That's ridiculous, and predatory upon it's buyers, imo.

Sure seems justified to say the Dyna is just plain a bad design.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2022, 08:02:36 PM »
Disagree with that TT. The electronic regulators don't care about a reference voltage and are just pegged to demand 14v from the alternator regardless of rpms. I've seen it with my own eyes; idle =14v, 5,000 rpms= 14v.  That's why I said they are bad for the charging system as it was not designed to produce 14v at idle .
« Last Edit: June 04, 2022, 08:06:48 PM by Spanner 1 »
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2022, 08:53:23 PM »
I know the Hall Effect sensors that are used in designs like Dyna S and Tytronics (and maybe others?) are quite voltage-level sensitive when used at maximum temperatures. That has always been the Achilles Heel of the Hall Effect devices: they change their trigger point (i.e., speaking in terms of magnetic flux, here) with increasing temperatures because the heat develops extra electron flow through the NPNP (or PNPN type, depending on which is used) junctions, just like in transistors and diodes. In other electronics I have designed over the years (using these types of Hall Effect devices) it was a struggle to get them to reach across wide temperature ranges (like, in the oilfield we had -35 degrees to +165 degrees F operating ranges, wider that that for storage/startup ranges) without changing their switching points. In real cold temperatures they become insensitive to the magnetic flux and at high temperatures they tend to not turn off well, once triggered. The latter is the typical Dyna S failures I have seen: they were in a hot engine and then were apparently hit with high voltage while switching at max current (i.e., 3-ohm coils in use) and this permanently altered their switching sensitivity. Then the triggers had to be repositioned (usually closer to the magnet) in order to switch consistently between cold//hot engine temps, and they would still tend to leak current (i.e., not turn all the way OFF when triggered by the magnet), which then caused weak spark from the coils.

It was this experience that steered me away from using them, even in the 1970s when they were new to the solid-state world, in my own designs. Sadly, optical triggers are not a whole lot better, plus these bikes tend to make them dirty in use, making these stop working! I did a design, just a month before the Dyna III came out, that used their Hall triggers to run a box that carried the power transistors, so as to lose the current in the heated-up triggers on the engine and hopefully reduce their failures and drift-with-temperature trigger points. It also contained a pair of flip-flop multivibrator circuits that returned the original dwell time to the coils, so as to reduce the excessive current draw on the bike. The 1-4 trigger would set the circuit OFF until the 2-3 trigger fired, which also reset the 1-4 OFF (much like the original mechanical system works), and vice-versa for the 2-3 side. This was all done to return the bike's power budget to normal again, while using the Dyna S triggers. It got real expensive, though, in 1970s dollars, to do this, so I never made more than 1 prototype of it all. It's still a good idea, and I have recently thought about dusting off the old design (if I can find it amongst my old college textbooks?) because today it could be made for about twice the cost of one of my present units, and it would save those who are using the Tytronics or Dyna units and can't return their spark advancers to the OEM points cam anymore.

Points are actually pretty amazing... :D
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2022, 09:48:48 PM »
Gee HondaMan, Mark, you aren’t inspiring confidence in electronic units. Biggest issue today in most electronics being engineered and used is the designs have little to no operating headroom for going beyond spec, they are built to operate at 95% or 100% of rated value and as a result you see comment and circuit failures sooner.
Friend whom was an USAF flight line mechanic and electronics specialist retired after his 20 were up and after moving back to Oregon near where they were from he and his wife bought a house a fixer upper and kids graduated high school and eldest  daughter went into electronics emgineering as she would help her dad do mods and repairs top PlayStation and Xbox and controllers. Chad still does it some….
After eldest daughter was nearly graduated he started returning to college to get his engineering degree too. Now all three kids are graduated as well as dad. Krysten works for Honeywell near Beaverton… Middle daughter is in a business field, uncertainty of her degree but she took organic chemistry which is super tough and usually a weed out chemical engineer and premed course. I hated chemistry in general at college level, prefer physics anyway anyway! Kamryn works for Disney and was in Disney in Europe for a while. Whereas Nate it’s into acting and drama and quite good at it. A creative arts degree of course….
Chad and I were talking about electronics a while back and he said they were designing things so close to the failure point eking out all they were designed to do which causes failures and the disposable electronics we have today. Then you have a ton of electronics scrap of components that fail testing and are rejected and some cheap Chinese electronics companies use eith scrapped out of spec for the original component and they adapt their designs to use these under spec ut of tolerance parts or the use parts that were harvested from recycled used equipment. So, the cheap labor of third world countries gets used to sort through or recycle electronic waste so they harvest the gold in some circuits and they sometimes do electronics waste dumping in 3rd world countries on islands in the South Pacific or/and other remote areas where populations are low and someone who may or may not own the land but dont give a rats  _____ about the environment and the potential health damages that it can cause. Just like used up ships end up beached and abandoned or towed into an area  in a ship graveyard. Salvage operations sometimes cut up these ships for scrap metal. The problem with most Chinese steel is the rusty scrap used to make it does not get sorted as they are not picky enough about what they cut up and melt down and they don’t refinance it to get those oxides out of the steel…so Chinese steel is pretty crappy material, with rust built in…

Imagine the time it will take building failures to result from that weaker rusting steel and it makes you wanna remember that…
What’s the rebar made from and where is it coming from? It is supposed to add strength to your concrete. When is the last time you saw rebar that wasn’t rusty? In your youth?

Saw a show about a GM plant that was abandoned 40 yrs ago and it showed how the earth was reclaiming the property and how water and decay were causing the structure to come apart. It was the rust of the metal in the concrete that often caused(/s) its failure. The rust expands about 10x its original size if I remember correctly…
Reminds me of some SciFy movies that have taken this concept to have planets where companies would use as dumping grounds… or a planet would get mined into oblivion to strip it of its minerals or ores to fuel expansion and building on other planets.
The writers just expand what humans do to our environment on earth. Humans consume and use things unlike most animals…
Oh well…

Pretty amazing points indeed!
« Last Edit: June 04, 2022, 09:54:48 PM by RAFster122s »
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline dave500

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2022, 12:12:20 AM »
was not designed to produce 14v at idle, which I have witnessed on a bike) Good luck.


i wouldnt say not designed but not capable with the stock regulator,ive been running a bosch electronic regulator for years on my 500 with good low rpm idle charging with no trouble at all,i ride this bike all the time.

That's why I said they are bad for the charging system as it was not designed to produce 14v at idle .

if 14 volts is bad for the system at idle how is it safe or better at higher rpm?the electrical system doesent give a #$%* about the mechanical side of things?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2022, 12:15:36 AM by dave500 »

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2022, 07:41:58 PM »
Gee HondaMan, Mark, you aren’t inspiring confidence in electronic units. Biggest issue today in most electronics being engineered and used is the designs have little to no operating headroom for going beyond spec, they are built to operate at 95% or 100% of rated value and as a result you see comment and circuit failures sooner.
Friend whom was an USAF flight line mechanic and electronics specialist retired after his 20 were up and after moving back to Oregon near where they were from he and his wife bought a house a fixer upper and kids graduated high school and eldest  daughter went into electronics emgineering as she would help her dad do mods and repairs top PlayStation and Xbox and controllers. Chad still does it some….
After eldest daughter was nearly graduated he started returning to college to get his engineering degree too. Now all three kids are graduated as well as dad. Krysten works for Honeywell near Beaverton… Middle daughter is in a business field, uncertainty of her degree but she took organic chemistry which is super tough and usually a weed out chemical engineer and premed course. I hated chemistry in general at college level, prefer physics anyway anyway! Kamryn works for Disney and was in Disney in Europe for a while. Whereas Nate it’s into acting and drama and quite good at it. A creative arts degree of course….
Chad and I were talking about electronics a while back and he said they were designing things so close to the failure point eking out all they were designed to do which causes failures and the disposable electronics we have today. Then you have a ton of electronics scrap of components that fail testing and are rejected and some cheap Chinese electronics companies use eith scrapped out of spec for the original component and they adapt their designs to use these under spec ut of tolerance parts or the use parts that were harvested from recycled used equipment. So, the cheap labor of third world countries gets used to sort through or recycle electronic waste so they harvest the gold in some circuits and they sometimes do electronics waste dumping in 3rd world countries on islands in the South Pacific or/and other remote areas where populations are low and someone who may or may not own the land but dont give a rats  _____ about the environment and the potential health damages that it can cause. Just like used up ships end up beached and abandoned or towed into an area  in a ship graveyard. Salvage operations sometimes cut up these ships for scrap metal. The problem with most Chinese steel is the rusty scrap used to make it does not get sorted as they are not picky enough about what they cut up and melt down and they don’t refinance it to get those oxides out of the steel…so Chinese steel is pretty crappy material, with rust built in…

Imagine the time it will take building failures to result from that weaker rusting steel and it makes you wanna remember that…
What’s the rebar made from and where is it coming from? It is supposed to add strength to your concrete. When is the last time you saw rebar that wasn’t rusty? In your youth?

:)
I can't disagree with anything you've said here, RAF! Chinese batteries use recycled lead and are the worst on the planet...
When I was 'taught' electronics and design (for mechanical, too) we learned to FIRST evaluate the 'operational level' of the final product, then design all the "stuff" in it to meet that 'level'. For example: MIL spec equipment had to OPERATE (not just STORE) in the temperature range of (usually) -40 degrees (where degrees F and C are the same value) to 125 degrees C (257 degrees F), and the NASA equipment I was being trained to build then was even worse, with -60C and 300C being the storage range when under 'idle' power, today known as "sleep" mode, and operation was from -50C to 275C. Most silicon devices can only store at those kinds of temepratures, not operate: they simply stop working (cold) or turn into a short circuit (hot). In those days, only SOS (Silicon On Saphire) semiconductors could meet those ranges, which made for very expensive and exotic circuitry. Usually we had more 'support' circuitry than 'operational' circuitry, where ancillary circuits controlled the power applied so as to keep the operating circuits in an operable range.

Compared to that, everything else I have designed has been a piece of cake... :)

When I worked in the oilfield, I went from signing on as a 'bench tech', assembling/tesing their already-designed stuff, to being in charge of ALL electrical/electronic design in just 18 month's time, through no pursuit of my own. When I walked into the place I was assigned the 'stuff that doesn't work right' and told to "repair" it. Most of it needed redesign in order to work, and since no one told me NOT to do that, that's exactly what I did. Unknown to me, the field people who used the equipment suddenly wanted to know WHY it was all beginning to work after it went through my office, and the next thing I knew, I was in charge of it all and my boss was fired. So was his boss. Then the Director of Engineering came to me, after assigning me to the largest office in the building, and said simply, "Anything with wires or power in it is now your job." So, they gave me an unlimited budget and told me to fix anything electrical/electronic that didn't work right, with redesign/replacement/whatever works. The rest, as they say, is history, and if there was a place here in the forums to talk about it, I would explain how it led to the most wonderful discovery of oil and gas supplies known in history. But alas, such things are usually destined for websites about so-called conspiracy theories...

When I designed my Transistor Ignition (again) in 2009 I wanted it to last at least as long as my 750 has, without any maintenance. As such, it runs at less than 25% of its capability with OEM coils, which means its silicon parts will average 220 years' lifetime if run that long. All semiconductors erode as they run, so the longevity is purely a mathematical ratio, which is the inverse curve value of the temperature at which it is asked to operate while carrying current. The Chinese designs drive me NUTS because they run every part at 100-120% of its rated capability IF it was made properly: thus the many failures we see today. Computer equipment is the very worst, and only the Chinese products could make the Japanese versions look good by comparison: Japanese designs use the "70% rule" where all the parts in a given circuit are designed by the semiconductor builder to meet the designer's requirements at the 70%-of-total-capability level. This is why their Japanese part numbering schemes are so strange: every semiconductor is specially designed.

But, I rant...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline amitr0

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2022, 09:52:11 PM »
How about the vape system? https://www.vape.eu/

I'm getting quite a few inquiries where the writers are confused about how the ignitions work on these bikes. It's probably due to many new members being too young to remember/use cars with Kettering ignitions (e.g., points, condensors and coils), so here's an explanation of how these systems work, for everyone:

- Most of these bikes (the CB750/500/550/400F/350F) use conventional Kettering points, condensors, and coils type ignition.
- The CB650 bikes use a modified version of 1960s-era CDI (Capacitive Discharge Ignition) all-electronic ignition.
- These 2 systems work very differently.

The Kettering systems use points that close to pass power through the coil (which is connected to battery power) to build up a magnetic field in that coil's metal core, and at the desired moment of spark (timing) these points are bumped open by a small cam (on the spark advancer), which causes the magnetic field to collapse suddenly. This collapse causes large magnetic flux across the coil's windings, resulting in momentary high voltage at the sparkplug. The condensor, which is connected across the points, absorbs the coil's angry backlash at this event, which is about 400 volts, and stores it up for the next time the points close again. Then the cycle repeats as the condensor's power is dumped to ground when the points close, and the charging cycle starts over. A little-known, but important, feature of the condensor is: its value (0.24uF, 600v) is tuned to match the inductance of the coil, which helps peak the coil voltage during spark. This value also helps to extend the duration (time) of the spark from the coil, and helps reduce the arcing that happens when the points open to interrupt the charging current. Honda engines like these need about 4000 volts of spark to run, and the Honda coils develop about 7500 volts for about 1.2mS, plenty of extra margin there.

The [original] CDI systems of the 1960s car-era racing designs used an oscillator and transformer to develop high voltage (usually between 200v and 600v, depending on the design) from the car's 12 volt system. This power charged up a capacitor (condensor) that was dumped into the coil at the moment of timing, which created a much hotter spark of about 50,000 volts, although it is very short in duration - like 0.5mS to 0.8mS duration. These systems use upwards of 8 amps of power to make this spark (some used up to 22 amps!). For car engines this was OK. Motorycles do not make much electrical power, but Honda wanted CDI-like ignition for the CB650 engine. So, they (TOYO, actually) developed a less power-hungry CDI which leaves the coils OFF until the moment of spark, then dumps a very fast-turn-on switched current to the coil when spark is needed. Then it immediately switches back off again to save battery power. To do this, they suspend (bias) the trigger coil on the timing plate between 5 volts and 12 volts of power (for a difference of about 7 volts) and swing a trigger past the coil to disturb the magnetic field that this current creates in the coil. This 'pulse' is resisted (electrically) by a capacitor (condensor) in the electronic circuit for about 1.0mS, during which time the whole rest of the circuit board turns on the coil. This sudden spike of current charges the coil until this condensor 'times out' the pulse circuit, and then the coil collapses to make a spark. It is a short, hot spark of duration set by the trigger capacitor (condensor) and is cleverly created to use less power than even the Kettering designs of the other SOHC4 bikes, because the coil only eats current during the very short charging spike. These coils are very low resistance so they can 'move' this fast, so they are not suitable for the earlier Kettering designs: installing them onto the Kettering bikes can melt the coils and their wiring.

This CDI design persisted in many Japanese bikes for decades afterward, as it is highly successful, so long as the electronics live.

In the 1970s, several "electronic" systems appeared for these, and other, Kettering-fired bikes. The most common one is the Dyna S type, where a magnet on the points cam momentarily turns OFF a Hall-Effect switch on the trigger board (one for each coil, 2 circuits per bike). These Hall-Effect switches turn OFF when a specific magnetic field is passed next to them: in the Dyna system they stay ON until Dyna's magnet, mounted on the [modified] points cam, swings past them. This ON state simulates the Kettering points being closed to charge the coils. The fly in this ointment is: they are ON all the time until the magnet swings part them, so the coils are drawing current all that time. Since these bikes have alternators that were only sized to deal with 1 coil charging up at a time, the coil electrical load is now doubled. This drains a lot of extra power from the bike. The 500/550 has the biggest trouble with this system, as its alternator rotor is poorly made and the alternators do not make much power as the result. Even the 750 has trouble supplying enough power for this unless it is ridden on the hiway at speeds over 4000 RPM for most of the ride time.

The Tytronics system is very much like the Dyna system. Newer versions of this one are reputed to have 'dwell limiters' in them to reduce the ON time somewhat, but the jury is still out as to how well this works, and its longevity, given where it is made.

Boyer-Bransden made an optical version a long time ago that was a compromise in power consumption between the Kettering and Dyna designs. Today this system seems to be available in UK on-and-off, and may come to the rescue of those who do not wish to live with points at all. It uses optical switches instead of Hall-Effect devices, with timing circuitry added to reduce over-consumption of coil charging power time duration.

My own Transistor Ignition merely uses the existing points to switch transistors instead of coils, in order to remove the arcing that wears the points. Since most of the points foot wear is caused by the points arc-welding themselves shut after each spark above 5500 RPM, this box stops that wear completely. This prevents point-foot wear almost 100%: I ran 9 years with my own unit #2 (Terry in AUS has #1) with no timing adjustments needed until I tore the whole engine down for rebuild. Then it was reset in 2013, hasn't needed anything since. I first developed this in 1973 to reduce the constant need to adjust points then, although it was so expensive compared to points then ($140 USD back when points cost $3, and in those $$ it would be about $280 today) that few of them got installed. Today, this is a different game, and it also supplies 100% "backup" in the form of being able to plug your points right back in if somehow the box should die. Thus, you can still ride home instead of hitching a ride to the nearest pickup truck or trailer. In America, where it is more than 3000 miles shore-to-shore and my average tour mileage was 2x to 3x that much mileage, this is a useful feature. ;)

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2022, 06:10:14 PM »
How about the vape system? https://www.vape.eu/

I'm afraid my German is real rusty (haven't used it since the 1980s), and I'm not dead sure what they have, but it looks like alternators for the CB500 might be there? It appears to list it as 150 watts output. Can anyone verify that?
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Maybe time for an ignition refresher?
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2022, 12:37:14 AM »
How about the vape system? https://www.vape.eu/

I don't see any advantage over OEM. What is your problem, if any, and what do you expect?
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